Should I give up on ABS-0?

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czerka's_epeen
I just cannot seem to get it to work. I had zero problems in Forza but in GT, I leave a puff to a cloud of smoke after almost every bit of braking. At least one tire goes red during any and every braking I do. If one doesn't the AI out brakes me. If both fronts do... I slide through the corner. I can drive with no ABS in reality, even on the occasional track. So why can I not do it in the Ultimate Driving Simulator?
Is it me?
Is the controller?
Is it the transition from Forza?

Has anyone else had major problems with braking and solved them? What was your solution?
 
I just cannot seem to get it to work. I had zero problems in Forza but in GT, I leave a puff to a cloud of smoke after almost every bit of braking. At least one tire goes red during any and every braking I do. If one doesn't the AI out brakes me. If both fronts do... I slide through the corner. I can drive with no ABS in reality, even on the occasional track. So why can I not do it in the Ultimate Driving Simulator?
Is it me?
Is the controller?
Is it the transition from Forza?

Has anyone else had major problems with braking and solved them? What was your solution?
Go to your brake bias and set it to front 1 rear 0. Try that.
 
Ditch racing brake kit it makes them lock instantly. With standard brakes, 5 - 5 or 4 - 4 is normally fine with ABS off, some cars are more sensitive than others so you'll still have to be gentle with some.

I agree on Forza it was much easier, but I think also the 360 triggers make it easier as they have better progression.
 
I just cannot seem to get it to work. I had zero problems in Forza but in GT, I leave a puff to a cloud of smoke after almost every bit of braking. At least one tire goes red during any and every braking I do. If one doesn't the AI out brakes me. If both fronts do... I slide through the corner. I can drive with no ABS in reality, even on the occasional track. So why can I not do it in the Ultimate Driving Simulator?
Is it me?
Is the controller?
Is it the transition from Forza?

Has anyone else had major problems with braking and solved them? What was your solution?

Do you use DS3 stick ? That's the main culprit :)
 
I just cannot seem to get it to work. I had zero problems in Forza but in GT, I leave a puff to a cloud of smoke after almost every bit of braking. At least one tire goes red during any and every braking I do. If one doesn't the AI out brakes me. If both fronts do... I slide through the corner. I can drive with no ABS in reality, even on the occasional track. So why can I not do it in the Ultimate Driving Simulator?
Is it me?
Is the controller?
Is it the transition from Forza?

Has anyone else had major problems with braking and solved them? What was your solution?

It's not you, it's not your controller, it's the braking model. Set ABS=1 and your bias to whatever feels right for you. There's no reason you have to set ABS=0, except I suppose in rooms where the host is gaming the game by locking ABS out (that is, if that's possible, and if it is, it (IMO) shouldn't be)
 
It must be said that ABS 0 is poorly implemented in GT on the whole and although its better in 6 than it was in 5, its still far from ideal. Whether that be because of the over-sensitivity that the tyres have for load, I can't say yet, suffice to say you won't get the feel from the brakes that you can with PC sims (can't speak to Forza, never played it)
 
ABS 0 is sooo much better in GT6. I use a wheel and had to mod it a bit for more resistance. That helped immensely as they are more sensitive than GT5. Loving it now on all compounds.
 
It's not you, it's not your controller, it's the braking model. Set ABS=1 and your bias to whatever feels right for you. There's no reason you have to set ABS=0, except I suppose in rooms where the host is gaming the game by locking ABS out (that is, if that's possible, and if it is, it (IMO) shouldn't be)

It must be said that ABS 0 is poorly implemented in GT on the whole and although its better in 6 than it was in 5, its still far from ideal. Whether that be because of the over-sensitivity that the tyres have for load, I can't say yet, suffice to say you won't get the feel from the brakes that you can with PC sims (can't speak to Forza, never played it)

It's input device issue, DS3 is bad for no ABS, use DS2 ( from PS2 ) + USB adapter - no ABS is great with the square button, able to apply brake force accurately ( 3 time more pressure range ):) GT6 no ABS gives great feel even when I used DS2 stick, I have no issue with racing brakes as well - use high brake balance at 9/4.

With pedal, I think it would need extensive modification - stiffer/more resistance and load cell a compulsory.
 
It's input device issue, DS3 is bad for no ABS, use DS2 ( from PS2 ) + USB adapter - no ABS is great with the square button, able to apply brake force accurately ( 3 time more pressure range ):) GT6 no ABS gives great feel even when I used DS2 stick, I have no issue with racing brakes as well - use high brake balance at 9/4.

With pedal, I think it would need extensive modification - stiffer/more resistance and load cell a compulsory.
I've got Clubsports, ergo not an input device issue.
 
It's input device issue, DS3 is bad for no ABS, use DS2 ( from PS2 ) + USB adapter - no ABS is great with the square button, able to apply brake force accurately ( 3 time more pressure range ):) GT6 no ABS gives great feel even when I used DS2 stick, I have no issue with racing brakes as well - use high brake balance at 9/4.

With pedal, I think it would need extensive modification - stiffer/more resistance and load cell a compulsory.
BS. It's the model. It works as expected only with specific input devices. Your contention is absurd.

People, use whatever ABS setting you prefer. I use ABS=1, then set my brake bias accordingly. For me, that means a 6/5, 7/6, 8/7 approach, to mirror the 10-20% Front-to-Rear bias set in the real world for most cars, but I don't doubt that others will find their own settings preferable. Do as you see fit and ignore the commissars. It is after all YOUR game too.
 
I've got Clubsports, ergo not an input device issue.

Do you have difficulties with pedal travel when not using ABS ? Lock up at halfway ? That's the main issue, if PD gives brake sensitivity, deadzone adjustments for wheel user, you can dial the pedal travel and lock up threshold to suit the pedal that you have, so you can use whatever brake balance that you prefer without having hard time avoiding lockup :D

BS. It's the model. It works as expected only with specific input devices. Your contention is absurd.

People, use whatever ABS setting you prefer. I use ABS=1, then set my brake bias accordingly. For me, that means a 6/5, 7/6, 8/7 approach, to mirror the 10-20% Front-to-Rear bias set in the real world for most cars, but I don't doubt that others will find their own settings preferable. Do as you see fit and ignore the commissars. It is after all YOUR game too.

Try DS2 first before saying more, the buttons simply needs 3 time more pressure to reach 100% input than DS3, that's what allows me to drive without ABS all day and rarely have any lock up even on comfort hard tire. Modified pedals - more resistance allows the same thing to a lesser degree - racing brakes kit is still a nightmare as it increased the sensitivity of the brakes force applied. Now if you can alter the sensitivity of the input device ( stick and pedal ) in game, you won't have any more trouble with no ABS. This means, you will have to press harder and deeper on DS3 buttons and pedals to apply more brake force ( reach full 100% on brake bar HUD ) - better manage the modulation before lockup.
 
I personally don't see the point.

I guess if you want the "ultimate realism" in certain race cars that don't have ABS, then sure go for it, but there is absolutely zero brake pedal feel.

All of the street cars save a few have ABS, and you would not turn ABS off if you were driving an actual car.

If the pedals were force-feedback then yeah it might be cool, but there's no indicators in the game outside of the sliding tire noise.
 
I just cannot seem to get it to work. I had zero problems in Forza but in GT, I leave a puff to a cloud of smoke after almost every bit of braking. At least one tire goes red during any and every braking I do. If one doesn't the AI out brakes me. If both fronts do... I slide through the corner. I can drive with no ABS in reality, even on the occasional track. So why can I not do it in the Ultimate Driving Simulator?
Is it me?
Is the controller?
Is it the transition from Forza?

Has anyone else had major problems with braking and solved them? What was your solution?



I was GOOD at running zero assisted on forza 5, I can run quite well without TCS on but without ABS.... I'm miles slower than I am running with the 1. Its not without the want of trying either, don't get the feedback, can't hear the bite from the track, eludes me where the threshold of braking is.

Its NOT you, I've heard many say the same.
I use an XBOX controller with a cross over so I'd say you can rule that out as well.
Maybe forza hasn't HELPED, there are guys (a few) who can get top 50 times on the seasonals with it off so its not as if you CAN'T go quick with it off.


My solution would be to keep trying but don't beat yourself up when you don't succeed.
 
Do you have difficulties with pedal travel when not using ABS ? Lock up at halfway ? That's the main issue, if PD gives brake sensitivity, deadzone adjustments for wheel user, you can dial the pedal travel and lock up threshold to suit the pedal that you have, so you can use whatever brake balance that you prefer without having hard time avoiding lockup :D
I don't have trouble with anything and I didn't imply I did, did I? I said that ABS 0 is poorly implemented in GT. Stop assuming that everyone who doesn't like ABS 0 can't drive properly, its tedious - we'll choose to drive with whatever aids and setup we prefer and you choose ABS 0. Good, glad you like it. I don't like it, in my opinion its not well implemented and after a short session on rFactor 2, that assertion seems adequately supported. Just because you can manage it, whatever method you choose, doesn't mean its fine. I ended up driving around a couple of week ago with a seized front brake caliper - I managed the problem but that didn't mean it wasn't a problem.
 
Try DS2 first before saying more, the buttons simply needs 3 time more pressure to reach 100% input than DS3, that's what allows me to drive without ABS all day and rarely have any lock up even on comfort hard tire. Modified pedals - more resistance allows the same thing to a lesser degree - racing brakes kit is still a nightmare as it increased the sensitivity of the brakes force applied. Now if you can alter the sensitivity of the input device ( stick and pedal ) in game, you won't have any more trouble with no ABS. This means, you will have to press harder and deeper on DS3 buttons and pedals to apply more brake force ( reach full 100% on brake bar HUD ) - better manage the modulation before lockup.

Why would I try the DS2? I use a DFGT. Try understanding that not everyone runs as you do, and that arbitrary conformation to other's specific setup standards don't work for all players, in part due to equipment differences and in part to driving style, Herr commissar. Use whatever you use if that works for you, but puhleeze don't try telling me how to use my own.

The racing brakes are not a nightmare. They simply experience less fade and in my experience so far, they do not brake any harder or softer than the normal brakes.
 
I don't have trouble with anything and I didn't imply I did, did I? I said that ABS 0 is poorly implemented in GT. Stop assuming that everyone who doesn't like ABS 0 can't drive properly, its tedious - we'll choose to drive with whatever aids and setup we prefer and you choose ABS 0. Good, glad you like it. I don't like it, in my opinion its not well implemented and after a short session on rFactor 2, that assertion seems adequately supported. Just because you can manage it, whatever method you choose, doesn't mean its fine. I ended up driving around a couple of week ago with a seized front brake caliper - I drove around the problem but that didn't mean it wasn't a problem.


Yea, Ibought a vauxhall nova (£200) from a dealer 10 years ago back and couldn't work out why it pulled so bad to the left and just wouldn't GO... after a few miles I got mad wheel wobble, pulled over and the disk was RED, almost on fire.

That was a problem. I blamed the caliper, not the driver :)
 
I don't have trouble with anything and I didn't imply I did, did I? I said that ABS 0 is poorly implemented in GT. Stop assuming that everyone who doesn't like ABS 0 can't drive properly, its tedious - we'll choose to drive with whatever aids and setup we prefer and you choose ABS 0. Good, glad you like it. I don't like it, in my opinion its not well implemented and after a short session on rFactor 2, that assertion seems adequately supported. Just because you can manage it, whatever method you choose, doesn't mean its fine. I ended up driving around a couple of week ago with a seized front brake caliper - I drove around the problem but that didn't mean it wasn't a problem.

Oh, I didn't mean to force anything, just giving my thoughts, so how is it poor in implementation ? Care to explain ?

Why would I try the DS2? I use a DFGT. Try understanding that not everyone runs as you do, and that arbitrary conformation to other's specific setup standards don't work for all players, in part due to equipment differences and in part to driving style, Herr commissar. Use whatever you use if that works for you, but puhleeze don't try telling me how to use my own.

The racing brakes are not a nightmare. They simply experience less fade and in my experience so far, they do not brake any harder or softer than the normal brakes.

My bad, I didn't know you used a DFGT wheel :( I was commenting about the brake model do not have issue, but simply how the input device communicate with the game. I won't force you to use no ABS, did I tell you to not use ABS ? I merely tried to say that with certain input device that has more input range, the difficulties with locking wheels are lessened greatly, not the brake model's fault, but the sensitivity parameter within the game. Also the brake balance in GT6 do not work the same as in GT5. There's a thread that discusses this.

The racing brakes kit is nightmare on pedals when no ABS used, also discussed on the other thread :

ABS OFF (0) should be no problem in GT6 - it would be pretty much the same as in GT5 (with new physics, their properties, etc., of course) - if the "Racing Brake Pads" were not included.

In my opinion, the "Racing Brake Pads" are the MAIN PROBLEM with the ABS OFF driving in GT6 and it seriously influences behavior of the car and brake-balance setting, especially for the drivers that are driving with the wheel/pedals.

What it seems to me - and I tried more than few cars - is that Racing Brakes are some very simple multiplier of the something I will simply call *brake force*.

For instance, where "normal" brakes have *braking force* of "3", racing pads provide *braking force* of "9".

And there comes a problem, because such multiplied *force* is directly influencing behavior of braking in terms it makes it 3X more sensitive. Where I need to apply a 50% of pedal force on normal pads, I need to apply only 15% - AKA just touch the brakes with tiptoes - with Racing Pads. And like that there is no threshold, almost no travel, nothing.

So, it has nothing to do with *brake balance* because the brake balance setting is just fine and works with the same logic as in GT5 and it works fine (I agree with your formula above Griffith, but I would simply stick to the more basic "calculation" where a value of 1 is always used for rear bias, and front bias is altered with vehicle-weight in mind) - as long as Racing Brake Pads are not fitted on the car.

For example, I am aware of the thread about "problematic" MR cars, and in my opinion, the only true problem are the Racing Pads on those cars. Although that thread nominated Cizeta V16 and F40 as *problematic*, they are not problematic at all, I can drive any of them on either Comfort or Sports tires and without ABS (and proper brake-balance settings) and they are acting perfectly. However, once the MR/RR cars with Racing Pads comes to picture (from Huayra to infamous Audi R8LM, to Renault Gordini for instance) everything falls apart because actual *braking force* is too strong because of the Racing Pads and no brake-balance settings can fix it.

Because the actual mass-center of the FR/FF vehicles with Racing Pads is not sensitive as on MR/RR cars, similar difference in behavior is not so exaggerated, but the same problem persists - because actual *braking power* is way too strong - which can be observed by watching the redline on the revmeter that represents braking when driving.

In my personal opinion it is the Racing Brake Pads and way that they work that is greatest current problem of GT6 and they are practically making more than 50% of cars unusable for those that opt to drive without ABS.

Polyphony should drastically change the way Racing Brakes (brake pads) are implemented and instead of multiplying actual *braking power* though current pedal-travel, they should somehow change it in a way to make it more effective in stopping the car by allowing the same amount of travel (braking force) when braking but with better threshold or actual efficiency - but again, not with simple multiplying the *braking power* which creates serious problems for all ABS OFF drivers - and especially those that drive with wheel and pedals - but with making them more *efficent* though grip-levels of mechanical-elements simulation (suspension or similar).

Until then, ABS OFF braking will be seriously problematic for ALL CARS WITH RACING BRAKE PADS and no brake-balance setting will be able to fix it.

At the same time, ABS OFF in GT6 remains a much better experience than in GT5 for all cars without Racing Brake Pads, because it seems that new physics and suspension model takes into concern actual mechanical properties of the braking-potential of a particular car (thus making ABS OFF driving more right) and it provides much more liviable and believable sensation.

**NOTE: - In my assessment, the *ABS* in GT series is not representative/simulation of the real-life ABS, it just uses that "name". ABS in GT is some kind of permanent braking assist *override* that not only prevents wheel-lock on the buffer-bases (dot doing what real ABS doing in the RL), but also have some invisible traction-control that nullify the suspension-modelling and equalizes unique characteristics of the vehicles resulting with the ability to turn while braking and never lose grip. It is an imposed as simple game-assist with adjustable level of assistance (1-10), it is not "simulation" of the RL ABS effect at all.

**NOTE #2: I am driving with Fanatec wheel and Fanatec CSPV2 pedals with load-cell and oil-damper - and still going through hell because of the Racing Brake Pads. I can't even imagine the horrors of braking with pedals that have no load-cell and especially the plastic pedals such as on DFP/DFGT wheels where sensitivity is probably 5X greater than on my set. Polyphony needs to fix this ASAP, it is the greatest current issue of GT6.
The default 5,5 appears to be "stock" brake balance. So if the car has a 70% forward bias stock, setting the in-game "bias" to 5,3 reduces overall power by 20% and shifts the bias forward to 79.5%.

The "formula", should you happen to know the stock bias (and it's correct in the game), is:

B*F/5 / (B*F/5 + B'*R/5)

Where B is forward bias, B' it's complement (rearward bias), F and R are the bias settings in game.

For 70% stock bias, 5,3 setting: 70*(5/5) / (70*(5/5) + (100-70)*(3/5)) = 0.795..., i.e. ~79.5%
For 70% stock bias, 5,7 setting: 70*(5/5) / (70*(5/5) + (100-70)*(7/5)) = 0.625, i.e. 62.5%
For 62% stock bias, 4,2 setting: 62*(4/5) / (62*(4/5) + (100-62)*(2/5)) = 0.765..., i.e. 76.5%

So depending on whether you want a more or less forward bias than stock, sometimes you need to set the rears "stronger" than the fronts.

The bias setting does nothing outside of a race, although I'm not even sure it works online at all, so although trial and error is still king, there's not much provision for it in the game, whereas it always worked in GT5.
Is this another thing where PD think they're "balancing" online by removing the ability to adjust the bias? Seems to me if people are disabling ABS, they're going to expect that bias settings will be tuned to personal taste, and accept that they may be slower than others as a result.

Really, the existing adjustment needs to be replaced with a proper, transparent bias and overall force adjustment instead of this silly use of low-integer rational numbers nonsense. Then allow that adjustment everywhere in the game.
 
It's input device issue, DS3 is bad for no ABS, use DS2 ( from PS2 ) + USB adapter - no ABS is great with the square button, able to apply brake force accurately ( 3 time more pressure range ):) GT6 no ABS gives great feel even when I used DS2 stick, I have no issue with racing brakes as well - use high brake balance at 9/4.

Sorry to go off topic a bit but how did you get the PS2 controller to work with GT6? I have a USB connector and the controller works in all other games that I've tried and it even works in GT6's menus but the game doesn't recognize any inputs during a race. I loved the sensitivity of the controllers in GT3 and 4 but I wasn't pleased with it on the PS3 controller in GT5P which was a big reason why I finally invested in a wheel for GT5 and now GT6. It would be nice to be able to just pick up the old controller and go for short stints from time to time if there's a trick to getting it working.

To keep it on topic, over time I've dropped all aids except ABS which I keep at 1 like most but I've been tempted to finally do away with it just to see if I can and to see if there's any extra time to be found. From what I've read it seems like people who have had success with the transition just keep at it and practice, practice, practice. It's also an adjustment to your mindset while driving as you can't just stand on the brakes anymore and expect the same results. I've also heard people having success with the GTEye but I have no experience with it so I can't speak to it personally.
 
Sorry to go off topic a bit but how did you get the PS2 controller to work with GT6? I have a USB connector and the controller works in all other games that I've tried and it even works in GT6's menus but the game doesn't recognize any inputs during a race. I loved the sensitivity of the controllers in GT3 and 4 but I wasn't pleased with it on the PS3 controller in GT5P which was a big reason why I finally invested in a wheel for GT5 and now GT6. It would be nice to be able to just pick up the old controller and go for short stints from time to time if there's a trick to getting it working.

To keep it on topic, over time I've dropped all aids except ABS which I keep at 1 like most but I've been tempted to finally do away with it just to see if I can and to see if there's any extra time to be found. From what I've read it seems like people who have had success with the transition just keep at it and practice, practice, practice. It's also an adjustment to your mindset while driving as you can't just stand on the brakes anymore and expect the same results. I've also heard people having success with the GTEye but I have no experience with it so I can't speak to it personally.

DS2 works on PS3 perfectly and a lot better than DS3, except the wires :lol:. You will need to get USB adapter with specific PS3 mode, usually they are sold in 2 in 1 mode ( PC and PS3 ), selectable using a switch. This type of adapter allows access to system menu ( turn off controller, turn off system, and quit game ) by holding the analog button for more than 2 seconds, and press Select + R3 to access XMB menu while in game. Imagine pressing the square radar button on Ace Combat 5 in PS2, now imagine do that to brake and gas in GT6 :D
 
Oh, I didn't mean to force anything, just giving my thoughts, so how is it poor in implementation ? Care to explain ?
Several factors, really. Its too easy to lock up with minimal brake pressure and reducing BB to ridiculously low settings should not be necessary. Locking up seems a bit of an on/off affair which makes cadence braking next to impossible... but this may also be related to the fact that the load sensitivity of the tyres seems too high as well as the fact that once tyres have lost grip/overheated they are a total loss, particularly racing tyres. In fact the whole issue may be down to the tyres but the result is the same - braking becomes crisis management rather than feel. I have a load cell brake pedal so that gives me more flexibilty, yes, but the fact I need to adjust it in GT, a game that doesn't even support Fanatec equipment and is supposed to be designed for DFGT and G25/G27 users, seems to point to the fact that something is wrong with its implentation. You could argue that, well, its an option meant only for those that have the right equipment but since such equipment is not officially supported, reasoning suggests once more that something is wrong.

If they ever get it right, I'd make the switch for sure. I feel that is a way off yet though.
 
How is it that no one has mentioned the "Brake Bias Glitch"?

The brake bias values only work in a few modes of GT6 right now unfortunately, career mode races work (that's where I test brakes), free run and online are not working properly, they're revert to default settings. If those default settings suck or the car has race brakes you're out of luck in those modes and you will constantly lock up the brakes.

This is also why many people have trouble setting the bias, cause its not working in some modes.

So go back to those cars you had the most trouble with and try setting up the bias in a career mode race.

I absolutely hated the Huayra with its racing brakes until I found out about the glitch at which point I was able to tune the bias properly in a career race, now I love the car.
 
I haven't experienced any "brake bias glitch" myself. Just a mathematical model that requires tweaking (via in-game configuration values) to make it work correctly.
 
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I haven't experienced any "brake bias glitch" myself. Just a mathematical model that requires tweaking (via in-game configuration values) to make it work correctly.


No matter what "tweaking" you do, (in some modes, free run & online) that tweaking reverts back to stock values.
 
I just cannot seem to get it to work. I had zero problems in Forza but in GT, I leave a puff to a cloud of smoke after almost every bit of braking. At least one tire goes red during any and every braking I do. If one doesn't the AI out brakes me. If both fronts do... I slide through the corner. I can drive with no ABS in reality, even on the occasional track. So why can I not do it in the Ultimate Driving Simulator?
Is it me?
Is the controller?
Is it the transition from Forza?

Has anyone else had major problems with braking and solved them? What was your solution?

Here's the better question. Are you having fun with it at 0? If so, then why give up? +1 on the suggestions to reduce the braking force.
 
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