Should World Tour/ GT Sport drivers get paid?

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theschledy

theschledy

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There was an interesting debate on Twitter that I think is worth some discussion here.

It mainly surrounds David Perel's twitter thread regarding the FIAs/ prize money, which I think stemmed from another GT Sport tweet about the FIAs that was making it's rounds.

I can see both sides of this topic. There should be some sort of monetary prize for a competition like this. But I could also see that money putting blood in the water and ultimately make the FIAs overly competitive.

World Gaming for example has a $20,000 prize pool for it's North American Forza Tournament, with a $7,500 grand prize, which seems like a perfectly reasonable amount. They actually had a Gran Turismo Sport competition a few years back, but I think that stopped due to a partnership with Xbox.

The Thread for context (click on the arrow to see the full thread):


While I'm no admin, let's try to respect each other's opinion and avoid the "Ok Boomer" posts. I think there's a valid argument on either side, no need to insult eachother..
 
I think there might be issues with Competition rules for certain countries if there are monetary prizes, it was a while ago, but I think i read someone commenting here that Canada might have stricter rules for one?

Does that North American Forza tournament include Canadian entrants? (Not intended as a joke, there are occasions where North America is classed as US only).

Didn't italy join the FIA contest late because they had to create different competition rules for it to be allowed to compete?
 
I think offering prize money would bring all sorts of complications to the FIA GT Championship myself due to various laws and so forth
regarding prizes and monetary value items around the world.

I would not be able to participate in the competition due to the nature of my day job as I am not allowed to receives gifts or prizes of monetary
value and I am sure not the only one who would not be able to participate, which I do for the fun and enjoyment of the races and improving
myself as a racing gamer.

You would also have to sort out the issues regarding race incidents and penalties which would ultimately mean stewards having to monitor
each race in the FIA events season like the World Toiur which would add to the resources required in my opinion.

Also complaints about no social life are not justifiable, this is a voluntary racing calendar, no one is forced to take part in every race, I know I don't
and I don't give up my social life just to practice for the event races, everything in moderation and all.

The competition with it's current arrangements seems to work just fine, things can always be improved but it should be based on those
participating feedback rather than internet discussions.
 
sirjim73
I think there might be issues with Competition rules for certain countries if there are monetary prizes, it was a while ago, but I think i read someone commenting here that Canada might have stricter rules for one?

Does that North American Forza tournament include Canadian entrants? (Not intended as a joke, there are occasions where North America is classed as US only).

Didn't italy join the FIA contest late because they had to create different competition rules for it to be allowed to compete?
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I think Canada is ok, only because World Gaming is a Canadian company. But I did see mumblings about laws in Japan, which equated esports to gambling (don't quote me on that).

But I do agree with the other comments. With the current state of the game, throwing some money on to that could throw the competition in to chaos.
 
David Perel fell back on his family company. Not every family has a company.

If it's a world championship from a big corp like sony backing it. Why aren't they getting paid? It doesn't matter if it's voluntary. It's not voluntary to get a job. But you still gotta make money for all your work.

Sony isn't a charity. They're out here making millions of dollars every day. I doubt it would be much more to at least pay the drivers.


I don't even know why this is a discussion. Of course they should be paid.
 
I'd be inclined to agree that some sort of prize or compensation should be considered for the top players. I look at other competitive video games as an example, like fighting games. You dedicate so much time and energy into practicing your craft and technique that even one moment of missed practice could determine your fate in the highest level of competition. Anyone can pick up the game and play it, but you have to have the skill, the mental capacity, the time and the energy to devote yourself to competing at the highest level and having a chance at winning a competition.

However, as nice as it would be to be rewarded with some sort of prize or compensation for your efforts, it shouldn't be the sole reason behind playing a game at high-level competition. Granted, offering a prize might increase the incentive for other players to either start playing the game at a high level of competition, or for existing players to keep practicing and keep competing in future events, but I think the human nature of competing is what makes high-level gaming competitions so interesting, whether it's fighting games, racing games, shooting games, or any type of game. I really enjoy watching those who excel or are skilled at various things that I could never feasibly achieve, and video games are a part of that.

It's at the discretion of the event organizers as to whether or not a prize should be offered to winners, but as I said before, even if a prize was offered, it shouldn't be the sole reason for playing a game competitively. Those who play games at the highest level usually really enjoy the game and they enjoy playing it so much to the point that they've honed their skills at it to the point of absolute mastery, but if you threw in a prize or something of monetary value for the victor, would you really enjoy playing the game as much anymore as you previously did before there wasn't? If you didn't win the top spot in a competition, would you be more disappointed in the fact that you didn't get the top prize offered to the top spot, or that you didn't get the top spot itself?
 
While it is true that a monetary prize would be awesome in the WT there are other things to take in consideration:

1.- FIA factor. We don't know if this is a requirement from them to avoid speculation ans keep the event clean, at least while it grows

2.- PD already faces issues eith some countries and regions due gambling laws, if you put money in the middle it would make more difficult to comply with those legal aspects
 
Suzumiya
David Perel fell back on his family company. Not every family has a company.

If it's a world championship from a big corp like sony backing it. Why aren't they getting paid? It doesn't matter if it's voluntary. It's not voluntary to get a job. But you still gotta make money for all your work.

Sony isn't a charity. They're out here making millions of dollars every day. I doubt it would be much more to at least pay the drivers.


I don't even know why this is a discussion. Of course they should be paid.
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I agree with all of this. These "SUCK IT UP" attitudes just further contribute to classism in motorsports.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a big cashflow and a fallback.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, I'm more disappointed at the way Perel talked down to the racers rather than PD/Sony themselves. It's understandable if PD doesn't pay out prize money, because they (apparently) do pay for expenses after all.
 
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Are all expenses paid for World Tour participants? If so, then, no. Players shouldn't get paid.

If players are being asked to promote Gran Turismo Sport in any other capacity, then, yes. Players should get paid.
 
Suzumiya
If it's a world championship from a big corp like sony backing it. Why aren't they getting paid?
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Because they've demonstrated they'll do it for free, and if they won't - there's probably a lot of people that would.

Suzumiya
It doesn't matter if it's voluntary. It's not voluntary to get a job.
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They aren't conscripted into playing the game or competing, it's absolutely voluntary to spend your time doing something that doesn't pay instead of doing something that does.

Suzumiya
I don't even know why this is a discussion. Of course they should be paid.
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They should be able to make money doing it, but expecting Sony to pay them just because Sony have a lot of money makes no economic sense. The question is who does their participation directly benefit, who are they an asset to, and what's the financial value of that.

These days there are many avenues to monetise what you do, if you think it's not fair these people do what they do for free, send 'em some money on Paypal, or tell them to get on Patreon.
 
In my view, for now the "payment" is the platform to prove yourself.

Have to think in the near future driving platforms will be used for scouting drivers. Racers and test drivers. Igor Fraga is proving himself. Kokubun, Yamanaka, Kawakami and Miyazono must be on the radar in Japan.

Prizes are from sponsors. Therefore sponsors should be hosting their own events. It's great PR for all and will attract more views than if they did it independently.

If all companies agreed to hold an event for each car in the game, that targeted advertising is probably more effective than a Super Bowl ad at a fraction of the cost.

Car companies/sponsors are the ones who need to get with the program.
 
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ers-of-the-world-tour-with-real-money.389432/

Sorry. Deja vu was strong.:D

Maybe I'm getting old but I'm still of the same opinion as I was in the old thread: The prize is an all expenses paid event at a place people want to go to and all the people who qualify win it. An awesome prize with a lot of regular 'winners' but if that isn't enough for them, don't go. There'll always be someone willing to take their place.

I wouldn't mind if they offered something on top of the glass or bronze trophy though. Maybe a track day and/or some tutoring...but if they're going to offer that, they might as well bring back GT Academy. It's proved that it works, it's top drawer advertising and the drivers make money.
 
For me Gran Turismo is in it's infancy as an esport, the FIA want to use it to interest younger people in motorsport, it doesn't help their cause if they attract pro gamers with prize money, I'm surprised an independent promoter isn't using GTSport in an esport championship, I guess Sony have it locked down pretty tight.
 
VeeDoubleU
David Perel wanting GTSport to be for the 0.001% just like real motorsport is nonsensical.

In terms of payment, eh dunno, I feel like only the actual competitors have a valid view of that.
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Basically how I feel now on these matters. The beauty of racing esports is that you don't necessarily have to be from a rich racing family to succeed.
 
RedRockValley
The beauty of racing esports is that you don't necessarily have to be from a rich racing family to succeed.
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Whether prize money was offered or not you still would not have to be from a rich family to participate. The same guys that are currently racing GTS top tier would still be at the pointy end but if the prize money was ample enough you would probably draw an interest from the top drivers some considered pro's from other e-sports series competing as well.

I do not know the prize distribution layout but iracing recently announced their 2020 Nascar championship season kicking off offering 300,000 u.s. dollars in total prize money. So there are motorsport racing e-sport series that do offer some pretty serious cash prizes.

I could see them having cash payouts if they were to do a "pro" level with payouts and a "novice" level as is with probably many having aspirations on moving up to pro. They would need to make a rule that once a racer is licensed at the pro level then he is not able to race n the novice classes to be fair to all.

Without a cash payouts pro only level I think introducing cash would ruin the championships.
 
VFOURMAX1
Whether prize money was offered or not you still would not have to be from a rich family to participate. The same guys that are currently racing GTS top tier would still be at the pointy end but if the prize money was ample enough you would probably draw an interest from the top drivers some considered pro's from other e-sports series competing as well.

I do not know the prize distribution layout but iracing recently announced their 2020 Nascar championship season kicking off offering 300,000 u.s. dollars in total prize money. So there are motorsport racing e-sport series that do offer some pretty serious cash prizes.

I could see them having cash payouts if they were to do a "pro" level with payouts and a "novice" level as is with probably many having aspirations on moving up to pro. They would need to make a rule that once a racer is licensed at the pro level then he is not able to race n the novice classes to be fair to all.

Without a cash payouts pro only level I think introducing cash would ruin the championships.
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That's some good points, it would be interesting to see tiered racing in the World Tour.
 
RedRockValley
That's some good points, it would be interesting to see tiered racing in the World Tour.
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I have always wanted to see tier level FIA competition championships based off skill levels in GTS even if the lower tiers were not actually at a world tour. Would open up the interest of the lower tier guys fighting hard to winning a championship and recognition among the peers of the same skill level they race at. Make the prize for the top 3 spots of each tier different length PS+ subscription gift cards or something that really cost Sony basically nothing out of pocket.
 
No additional legal issues as the trip is already considered a prize. The jurisdictions with stricter regulations (or falsely assumed to have stricter regulations (Quebec)) are already excluded...

I’m not into prize money as it brings the worst out of people but it doesn’t affect me personally. At least GTS being on a console with less hardware compatible makes it less of a rich kid privilege like iRacing.
 
Speaking of limited entries, the region split into 5 has made it so hard to qualify for nations cup. I live in Australia and you have to be Top 2 in Aus to make it to a world tour and that’s made me not bother doing nations cup anymore. In 2018, you had to be Top 10 in your country. This gave me hope that I could make it Top 10 in Australia and make it to the Asia regional final, but I actually did poorly that year.

More worse is that Nations cup is dead in Oceania and all of the players there have turned to Manufacturers. That Cody fella it’s too easy for him winning every single race and season down under. He needs to be competing with Asia again where there’s actually “competition” there.

Bring back 2018 format, bring back 3 regions and most importantly, bring back Top 24 superstars.
 
It’s taken a couple of years to fine tune the World Tour events. Now we are starting to see more automotive partnerships.

I’m sure we’ll see a prize pool in time.
 
As far as the legal aspect goes for prize money being different in different countries, how do the bigger e-sports titles deal with it? I don't follow e-sports, so that's an honest question. I do know that there are pro gamers out there that make their living through e-sports. Is it all sponsorships or do the big e-sports titles offer prize money, as well?
 
I think there should be prize money for the GT World Tour. I mean, if they really want to treat it like real motorsport, there should be.
 
While David's word choice might have come across as a bit strong and perceived by some as looking down on lower skilled players, his responses later shows that he actually agrees that pro players should receive prize money, but that it just should not come from the game organizers but rather from the teams and sponsors. Perhaps something like Lewis Bentley has in mind in his recent Twitter poll which I by the way think can be a huge success.

I think it's obviously the Developer's prerogative too choose if he wants to go the "prize money" route or the "expenses paid" route, but then it's also the player's choice if he wants to support the one game or the other and should not be critisised for making that choice. And that applies both sides of the coin.

As for throwing prize money in GTS will cause chaos, I disagree with that. While FORZA had a bumpy road in early days in some of it's prize tagged series, it's quite a decent show to watch these days and so is I-racing, LMES etc. The same argument was made in real world Rugby when it became a professional sport years ago and yet it turned out great. [Ask any South African what he/she think of their World Champ rugby team :lol:].

Fortunately I have a full time job, a super wife and two kids, my BMW S1000RR superbike for club racing and golf clubs so at the very best can be seen as a weekend simracer, hence don't have the time to invest to race with the higher skilled players. BUT I do respect these players for the massive time they put in and sacrifices they make to achieve top honors. For that I think they deserve some remuneration and even more so if that becomes their primary income. Who pays for that [developer or sponsor] is a total different debate and should not be mixed with this one.
 
If they feel they have so much clout they should look at getting some sponsorships.

Also I'm sure i've said this in a different thread but have fun working out visas for every entrant. The list of qualifying countries would be a short one as the people would be coming abroad for work.
 
barak181
As far as the legal aspect goes for prize money being different in different countries, how do the bigger e-sports titles deal with it? I don't follow e-sports, so that's an honest question. I do know that there are pro gamers out there that make their living through e-sports. Is it all sponsorships or do the big e-sports titles offer prize money, as well?
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You can see a list of the highest earning e-sports players, and the games they're making money from, here:
https://www.esportsearnings.com/players

Sorted by games that pay the most money:
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games

And some info here about how the biggest paying game in that list raises the money for the prize fund:
https://www.popsci.com/5-things-know-about-dota-2/
 
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Wow i didn't expect David Parel to be such a 🤬 disapointing...:( Anyway back on topic of course they should get paid if there are no legal issues to tackle they are wasting time and energy like in a real job for this and as for the "You have to make Sacrifices to become world champion" 🤬 argument let me ask you this David ( i doubt he gives a 🤬 tho) which is more notable ? Saying i won the Blancpain GT series or i won the Gran Turismo world tour number 353 in Tokyo or whatever? You get multi thousend € checks with each podium (and each drive obviously) + your nice trophy's to add to your beautiful trophy cabinet What do GT players get? A cabinet of Tag Heuer watches wow... No disrespect to Tag watches they are very nice but if i have to all of that just dor a watch i rather wait 300 years saving money for it. At the end the players are right they do this for nothing.
 
You can look at fighting game history on tournaments and all.

The reality is on PD and FIA with how they manage the rules, the settings and all, not on the player and not on "dirty" behaviour.
 
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