SimHQ E3 GT5 extended play report

[TeamStig]

Much better than ISR's article, a good read. They think independently enough to form their own conclusions about GT5, rather than write it off because it's not on the PC.

 

[Raitziger]

Ah. I play with a controller as I don't like game wheels. I find the controller does a brilliant job of emulating the flow of a car and responds really nicely to throttle and steering inputs.

F3 is very nice with pad. Too bad they use same settings for wheels.

 

[danielwhite74]

Just a quick question; can anyone tell me the frame rate which Gran Turismo 5's physics engine runs at? Preferably backed up by a reliable source (if such a thing exists).

 

[McLaren]

Come on..

Oh, and this too:



BUt those two minutes were obvisuly enough to write down this:



Really? Maybe I should invite those guys to come to my house and try to drive both games in cockpits with the wheels and make some serious comparations regarding those "eye candy" thingie when all assists are off.. Untill then I guess everybody will just quote thier "simulation hard-core experts" and further furnace the Troll Wars.

You're taking the words out of context.

What little we did see of GT5 was impressive — particularly the graphics and car variety, and certainly seems to have physics and eye candy on a par with GT 5's main rival, Forza Motorsport 3.

They never said it did, they said it seems to be on par judging by the 2 minute demo.

And if you bothered to read this newest article, they do mention that GT5 is far more realistic than Forza in some cars & take note of Forza's physics becoming a downer on the edge.

The Ferrari could easily be over-driven into a corner, with the result being massive understeer. Conversely, an abrupt right foot could snap the rear end loose and turn the car around in the corners. Pretty much what you'd expect from a car like the Ferrari. Best of all, Chunx had some real "Jeremy" moments as he performed a lurid power slide out of Hammerhead that were very difficult to maintain, easy to over-cook and felt very realistic (really, more realistic than FM3, where that edge of the physics model seems to be toned down a bit). We think that the street cars are where GT5 really shows its strong physics engine, because of the reduced grip level of the street tires and minimal downforce on these high-powered cars.

What it's a tad funny is now ISR & SimHQ have both compared the physics of GT5 to FM3 & some people act like they still know better or that the mere comparison is blasphemy.

If that's the case, then why don't one of you start your own sim-racing website & please, share with us where ISR & SimHQ are so wrong.

 

[Dravonic]

Just a quick question; can anyone tell me the frame rate which Gran Turismo 5's physics engine runs at? Preferably backed up by a reliable source (if such a thing exists).

I think you mean frequency, not frame rate.

As far as I know, it has never been mentioned by a reliable source. But I never cared or searched for such a thing so I may be wrong.

 

[fasj6418]

Just a quick question; can anyone tell me the frame rate which Gran Turismo 5's physics engine runs at? Preferably backed up by a reliable source (if such a thing exists).

There´s is an interview in which KY says it runs at 600 frames per second, and it´s only possible on the PS3 (reffering to what was doable on PS2).

But i don´t have a database of his interviews, so i can´t give you a link. I´m sure other member remember this as well.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

It is.

It's compatible to every demo, prologue and full GT since 4 as far as I know. Probably even 3. I don't see any reason why this would change.

A relief to here if thats the case.

My reasons for being cautious is im sure I read the paddle shifters on the G27 didn't work on GT5P. What if this is the case on GT5 with the G25.

What my plans are is as soon as I get my copy of GT5 and discover the G25 works I will then order my cockpit straight away.

 

[Dravonic]

What it's a tad funny is now ISR & SimHQ have both compared the physics of GT5 to FM3 & some people act like they still know better or that the mere comparison is blasphemy.

If that's the case, then why don't one of you start your own sim-racing website & please, share with us where ISR & SimHQ are so wrong.

There is no need to start a sim racing website to disagree or prove them wrong. Though I agree amar and others needs more convincing arguments.

As for me, I never bother to worry with what reviewers have to say, if anyone wants to, go ahead.

A relief to here if thats the case.

My reasons for being cautious is im sure I read the paddle shifters on the G27 didn't work on GT5P. What if this is the case on GT5 with the G25.

What my plans are is as soon as I get my copy of GT5 and discover the G25 works I will then order my cockpit straight away.

It's always smart to be cautious, I guess, but I think it's a very safe bet nonetheless.

The G27 paddles didn't work in prologue because the wheel was released after prologue. The next public GT5 distribution, the TT demo, already supported the G27 paddles. PD seems to be very worried with wheel compatibility. Some very old ones were supported in prologue, and I think they still will be in GT5.

 

[gtracedriver]

After reading their Forza reviews and other things I am not sure about their opinions. But anyhow it is good they seems to like it

 

[mykem]

Just a quick question; can anyone tell me the frame rate which Gran Turismo 5's physics engine runs at? Preferably backed up by a reliable source (if such a thing exists).

I personally don't think the speed of the physics engine makes much of a difference when it comes to actual execution although I must admit it would be interesting to know. Just as point of reference, the NFS:SHIFT runs over 400 Hz (quoted I believe at 420 Hz including the console versions) while Forza (2 and 3) is at 360 Hz. I remember hearing something about rFactor and iRacing although neither of the games' developers make any mention of it.

After reading their Forza reviews and other things I am not sure about their opinions. But anyhow it is good they seems to like it

I remember during last year's E3, SimHQ was mighty impressed by Forza 3's demo although the ensuing review of the actual game though favorable was not quite as enthusiastic.

 

[gtracedriver]

Ah. I play with a controller as I don't like game wheels. I find the controller does a brilliant job of emulating the flow of a car and responds really nicely to throttle and steering inputs. I don't think I care anymore for arguing for one or the others, but GT4's cars felt laboured and from FM2 and now 3, they just feel more responsive and fun.

They do seems to have some telemetry and in some aspects, it is cool. But Forza handles like a dream, it is fun and nice physics too if you want to say. But not really a sim.

 

[Captain Roh]

Let me just check something before i make an idiot of myself...............

................ nope, didnt think so. In no way shape or form is Forza 3 mentioned in this thread title.

I for one am sick and tired of every godamn thread turning into a flame war. Seriously, i'm having to double check thread titles at the moment to see where i am.

If you want to compare GT with Forza, or talk about Forza, hell even bash another website based on its opinion of Forza, then take it to the appropriate thread so those of us who want to discuss the topic, can. Sound fair?

 

[frankwer]

I find it amusing that people find Forza or GT as the best in the racing genre, when they are both mediocre. Having good graphics is not everything.

 

[alucard0712]

I do not believe them.Sorry...I've watched many of their reviews and they understand very very very small part of the game.They cannot go deep into the *game*, because they are not gamers.For them all racers are more of the same.Comparing by number of cars, tracks, "damage", they know really nothing about quality and game-play, and absolutely nothing about art-form (which is GT known for), judging by their very unclear and intuitive feel.Pure subjectiveness.

Few citations (that blows me away):
"GT5P has little better graphics than Forza 2..."

Really?Little better?1080p, 60fps shadows and reflections, 16 cars, HDR lightning, 1:1 track and car representation,cockpit view - which is always visible...Its unknown level graphics even for 2010 PC racer.But no - it's just little better, because Forza do not have cockpit view...I bet even Forza 4 will not be on pair with Prologue (graphics-wise).

"GT has worse music, maybe title theme is ok..."
Oh yeah? How did they know? I'm a musician - and I can tell you - they know NOTHING about music.GT5P OST is famous among musicians.It's superb quality OST.Especially in menus.

I don't want even start to criticize other things they said (damage, car feeling, responsiveness, latency, assists etc...), it's waste of time.But I think it's enough to understand that their opinion are not competent enough, ESPECIALLY their "first impressions".

(Sorry guys!I really think you can't have a objective review by even hour of playing other than "wow, good, bad..." and such.)

 

[Kusogaki]

@frankwer

On consoles, there they are the top titles and please don't bring "PC is where it's at", we already got too much **** on our hands just trying to deal with GT<->FM comparisons.

 

[Devedander]

There´s is an interview in which KY says it runs at 600 frames per second, and it´s only possible on the PS3 (reffering to what was doable on PS2).

I have never been sold much on the whole "can only be done on the PS3" statement as technically I could assign each SPU to calculate 1+1 simultaneously and there is no other console that can do that.

The phrase "can only be done on XXX" just means so many possible things it never means much to me...

 

[Mermadium]

Those guys are really really really annoying with constant comparasions with FM series regarding physics.

If they are serious - which they clearly and most obvisuly are not - they would be "simulation aware" and both realise and noted it is completely uncomparable, especially if we're talking about the wheel support.

Forza 3 never settled the issue with wheel support, no matter if it is MS wheel or Fanatec. Steering buffer is till there, controller-drivers are still much faster than wheel drivers and force feedback effect is still a joke when compared to solutions offered on both PS3 and PC.

Untill Microsoft decide to honor one of it's greatest franchises with console/hardware that will actually support true force feedback effect and when T10 decides to make Forza lateral-physics being fully released, there is no way on Earth somebody serious can draw the line between this two series.

SimHQ have been a completejoke with this comparasions and I really can't understand why is their voice so influential.

It is like going into debate about both series simulational aspects when I played both with the wheel and other side never touched anything but controller.

Come on..

Oh, and this too:



BUt those two minutes were obvisuly enough to write down this:



Really? Maybe I should invite those guys to come to my house and try to drive both games in cockpits with the wheels and make some serious comparations regarding those "eye candy" thingie when all assists are off.. Untill then I guess everybody will just quote thier "simulation hard-core experts" and further furnace the Troll Wars.

I think people shouldn't take this "reviews" from this "professionals" too seriously, i mean it should be taken like the opinion of anyone that has played sim racers and that's it...what qualifies them as pros?have they done some real racing?
well anyways it sounds good regadless, can't wait.

 

[Zer0]

Just a quick question; can anyone tell me the frame rate which Gran Turismo 5's physics engine runs at? Preferably backed up by a reliable source (if such a thing exists).

Only exists old interviews about the subject:

He says Polyphony is already experimenting with running its current physics simulation at many more cycles per second -- 300 or 600, compared to 60 in GT4 -- and getting impressive results in the process, but current hardware can't handle that and draw a good-looking game at the same time.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zd1up/is_200405/ai_ziff127209 (dead link)

Kazunori: Let's take the category of car physics: currently in GT4 on the PS2, the calculations for car physics are done sixty times a second, the same as the framerate. But with the next generation coming and higher specifications, we think this could change to 300 times per second or even 600 times per second.

Those changes will be significant in how players relate to car physics, car simulation and feedback.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=105605

 

[Tenacious D]

I find it amusing that people find Forza or GT as the best in the racing genre, when they are both mediocre. Having good graphics is not everything.

This depends on what you mean by mediocre.

Yes, PC sims show up GT4 physics as primitive, as do Forza 2 and 3. However, a PC with specs resembling the PS2 haven't been made since the late 90s, about 15 years ago. Every system used now makes the PS2 look antiquated.

And yet PC sims, as good as they are, just don't thrill me. They feel cold, sterile and clinical. There are a handful of cars, usually with only a couple of classes or so. And yes, the graphics blow. With darn few exceptions, they look like PS2 graphics in HD. I usually dislike the liveries, and making my own is a bit of an ordeal, requiring skill in skinning, which I don't have, nor an art tablet. In fact, the entire presentation of a PC sim is usually limp and flat. Toca is a rare exception, but then Codemasters is a console company. Sadly, Codies killed Toca.

But, while GT4 doesn't feel like a PC sim, Prologue is pretty darn close. In fact, the Time Trial demo feels more like a sim than many sims I've tried.

I don't get the sense of car lovers trying to create a work of art in a game with any other series but Gran Turismo. Thus, I spend a lot of time just going back and racing GT4 on the lowly PS2, because a game with passion has much more appeal than a game which lacks it, regardless of whatever else it offers. And GT5... well, I don't think I have to type a word. Call me a fanboy if you want, that's okay.

 

[Dapper]

Only exists old interviews about the subject:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zd1up/is_200405/ai_ziff127209 (dead link)


http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=105605

Awesome post!
I wonder if the GT5 demo, and GT5, have more calculations per second than GT5P, and if thats why they feel more realistic?
And how many do rfactor, or iracing have?

 

[Scaff]

If this thread turns into another standard cars vs premium cars discussion I will be handing out infractions for spaming.

A few members (and you know damn well who you are) seem to want to extend this discussion to every GT related thread on the board and its going to stop.

Threads (two of them) already exist for the standard vs premium discussion, keep that discussion to them.


Scaff

 

[Tenacious D]

Ah. I play with a controller as I don't like game wheels. I find the controller does a brilliant job of emulating the flow of a car and responds really nicely to throttle and steering inputs. I don't think I care anymore for arguing for one or the others, but GT4's cars felt laboured and from FM2 and now 3, they just feel more responsive and fun.

Controller/I don't like wheels = oh dear...

Besides, "more responsive and fun" usually means arcadey, and I have to say that Forza is a scouche arcadey to most of us. It's still sim enough to be a good racer, but Turn 10 does massage the physics a bit too much, even with a wheel and all aids off. Drifting is still too easy, for instance.

Personally, I have never understood the need for rivals in human psychology. Seems like an illogical hindrance in modern times.

Well, this is the competitive side in human nature. And seeing as this is a racing game forum, what do you expect?

There can be friendly rivalry, such as there is between Insomniac, Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch. Insomniac has been featuring the other two game companies' characters in their games here and there, and now there's a PS Move game coming next year featuring all three series' main characters in a game. But Turn 10 has been getting a little arrogant over the past year or more, and considering the quality of game they're making, and who's idea they're "using," really don't have much leg to stand on.

Still, Forza is "that other game," so comparisons are inevitable. But if you're going to compare them, make sure you don't gloss over things. People have ranted over things Amar has pointed out, including myself, and been called blind PD worshiping fanboys for it. And Amar knows his stuff.

 

[magicalgin]

Funny thing is.. I never knew Forza existed, up and untill I visited gtplanet :| Yes I've been living under a rock..

 

[Dravonic]

Funny thing is.. I never knew Forza existed, up and untill I visited gtplanet :| Yes I've been living under a rock..

Not surprisingly, that's exactly what Turn 10 wants to achieve when they compare Forza to GT.

 

[scope72]

Well, this is the competitive side in human nature. And seeing as this is a racing game forum, what do you expect?

There can be friendly rivalry, such as there is between Insomniac, Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch. Insomniac has been featuring the other two game companies' characters in their games here and there, and now there's a PS Move game coming next year featuring all three series' main characters in a game. But Turn 10 has been getting a little arrogant over the past year or more, and considering the quality of game they're making, and who's idea they're "using," really don't have much leg to stand on.

Still, Forza is "that other game," so comparisons are inevitable. But if you're going to compare them, make sure you don't gloss over things. People have ranted over things Amar has pointed out, including myself, and been called blind PD worshiping fanboys for it. And Amar knows his stuff.

Well I certainly don't expect for rivalry to not exist.

However, I have never understood the purpose of it. I do not feel the need for rivalry. I'm a huge sports fan, but do not hate any team that other's may consider a rival. To me, it doesn't make sense.

However, I was agreeing with Amar's frustration for the constant need to frame every GT report as the antithesis to Forza, and vice versa. It is beginning to get annoying, especially since all racing games are better measured against their true rival, REALITY.

Disclaimer: Not saying we should never compare games, that would be stupid, but people over-do the Forza/GT thing in my opinion. There are even large chunks of people who seem to hate/despise the other. I'm not sure those people realize that these are video games.

 

[kingcars]

Well I certainly don't expect for rivalry to not exist.

However, I have never understood the purpose of it. I do not feel the need for rivalry. I'm a huge sports fan, but do not hate any team that other's may consider a rival. To me, it doesn't make sense.

Rivalry is what drives companies/teams/people to be on the top of their game at all times. Competition is what keeps products improving. If just one company/team/person gets an easy monopoly on something, they will get lazy and the results will suffer.

 

[ItsHim]

SimHQ have been a complete joke with this comparasions and I really can't understand why is their voice so influential.

Because they are not that dogmatic about tyres, physics and "stuff" like, unfortunately, many members of GTP seem to be. They once in a while acknowledge things done right by other franchises that enhance gameplay experience.

3rd party accessories are not part of the Microsoft strategy, there is no proper wheel for the XBox 360 (the one MS offers I would consider a toy only) and the Fanatec seems to use a hack of some kind. At least this was implied at logitech's forum.

So you'll have to live with the controller issue anyway, why then over-stress it?

I hope GT5 will be a fun and challenging game. It's not designed to polish egos by being the ultimate sim. That's what Autobahns and track days are for.

 

[scope72]

Rivalry is what drives companies/teams/people to be on the top of their game at all times. Competition is what keeps products improving. If just one company/team/person gets an easy monopoly on something, they will get lazy and the results will suffer.

Understood that is what drives other people. Just saying that I don't see it that way. Personally, I am driven by principles, and if I have any loyalty, it is because that company/person is in line with those principles.

But I digress, because this is waaaaaayyyy off topic.

 

[Jump_Ace]

It was an okay read, I'm with Amar on this one guys. Can't use a Logitech wheel on the 360? I can use a Logitech wheel on my PS2, so my PS2 can provide a better racing experience that the 360. At least that is how I see it. What is so special about these guys that they get to Hog the whole booth while others continue to wait patiently in line? I'd be 🤬 pissed if I was in that line.

Jerome

 

[mykem]

It was an okay read, I'm with Amar on this one guys. Can't use a Logitech wheel on the 360? I can use a Logitech wheel on my PS2, so my PS2 can provide a better racing experience that the 360. At least that is how I see it. What is so special about these guys that they get to Hog the whole booth while others continue to wait patiently in line? I'd be 🤬 pissed if I was in that line.

Jerome

What's special is that they have a website that publishes their views and opinions. The good thing is that most of us who can't be at E3 to try out the GT5 demo is now able to read about it. It's a good read and an interesting insight on what we can expect but as with any opinion, you have to take it for what it's worth.

Sorry if this is offensive but sometime I wonder if people actually think before they speak.