Single Line Syndrome

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5' started by RedOak, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. RedOak

    RedOak

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    Gran Turismo is, or has been, notorious for this in past installment of the franchise; let me explain;

    The fact that all racing cars form a single line and spend most if not all their time following one another almost dead on.

    Some people refer to it as train track or railing as well.

    It got me thinking, wondering really, about whether or not we'll see a change in this behavior from the AI race cars for GT5?

    Other games do this quite well; surprisingly tho, they are not really Simulations; GRID and SHIFT are two very good examples, where cars very often try to pass other cars, drive very aggressively, or use different lines in corners and straights. THey often do mistakes, are send spinning out of control, hit obstacles and ultimately, crash. All of which, does not happen often, if at all, in GT5p.

    When i play the GT series, i always get the nagging feeling that i start at the back of the pack, and i am playing a puzzle game, where there is really a few solutions to overtake all the cars within the allocated time.

    This, unfortunately, leads to the player always racing by himself, leaving other cars in the dust at the back, while fighting super hard to pass the leader (which is always a Corvette, a Ferrari 430 or a GTR, not surprisingly).and once you get at the top spot, you're all alone as all the other cars are way way behind, in a single line... again.

    What do you all think?
     
  2. SrRd RacinG

    SrRd RacinG (Banned)

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    With damage affecting cars mechanically, I'd imagine a shift in the AI. By shift I mean in their location and in their mentality to avoid collisions.
     
  3. Cheshyrkat

    Cheshyrkat

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    Only real solution is online play. Even those games you mentioned have moronic AI. They may be driving aggressively but they are also driving stupidly and unpredictable and corners turn into a massive cluster **** .
     
  4. torontoml

    torontoml Premium

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    Well accidents in real life aren't as common as other games would have you believe. They did happen in Prologue sometimes, and with Kaz's recent statement about making the AI more human we'll probably be pretty close to what will make for good racing (mistakes and all)
     
  5. Bandit6

    Bandit6

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    I think we have already seen an improvement in some of the GT5 video's popping up. The AI seems to be a bit more aggressive when attempting to pass and the "line" seems to have some of the cars slightly off of it.

    There was one video that showed this pretty well but I can't remember which one. To many video's in the last couple of weeks.
     
  6. GT5 Master

    GT5 Master

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    I know what you mean, because on GT5p I never saw an
    AI car make a mistake, and this goes for all the previous
    GTs. On NFS Shift they would be ramming eachother and
    ramming you which made it much more fun to play, but I
    think by the trailers that we've seen it's going to be better
    this time.
     
  7. lbsf1

    lbsf1

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    Like real racing.
     
  8. TokyoDrift

    TokyoDrift (Banned)

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    The latest Enzo video (see news page on this site) shows some decent AI, somewhere around the 3rd corner of the second lap - it swerves to avoid hitting the Gallardo (player controlled).
     
  9. cobraagent90

    cobraagent90

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    Well, since its supposed to be "The Real Driving Simulator" the AI needs to be very high. High doesn't mean agressive however, the AI should be "playing" to win and to stop you, not to kill you. Unfortunately, so far the AI is always following the blue racing line....
    Either way, i spend most of my time in time trials so i won't be bothered.
     
  10. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ

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    I've only had Prologue for 2 weeks, and I've seen a lot of cars go off track!

    I've also seen some cars wait on the side at Fuji to reenter the track
    And they all don't follow the same line

    if you ever seen good, clean, human drivers online, they all pretty much follow the line. Going off line means you'll end up off the track when your on the limit
     
  11. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    They're all following the same racing line? Well, thats motor racing for you.

    The AI could be improved further by way of avoiding obstacles (i.e. you) and by making more overtaking/passing manoeuvres. But the AI we have seen in recent demos is far beyond what we saw in GT4, in both pace and intelligence. They are working on it, or have been... Either way, don't worry about the AI.
     
  12. TokyoDrift

    TokyoDrift (Banned)

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    I can't say that from what I've seen it is FAR beyond what we saw in GT4, certainly not in pace - Kaz already said that the focus before was getting their lap times realistic, now the focus turned to making it more human-like. The pace, therefore, is largely the same. I've seen the odd few swerves though, which is encouraging.

    Just noticed your sig too - if I remember that lap in the M600 correctly, while the surrounding grass had a light dusting of snow and was a bit frosty, the track itself was clear of snow and bone dry ;) The only reason I recall this is a guy at work the next day came running in screaming, "Did you see that Noble M600 last night?! Totally wiped the floor with the Enzo, and the track was covered in snow..." Er, no it wasn't! Still, an impressive lap nevertheless given the surface temperatures.
     
  13. Dracwolley

    Dracwolley

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    Three words:

    More Human AI (or was that four?)

    Seriously though, humans don't stay right behind each other while racing, so I would imagine that this "disease" as it were would be improved upon, dramatically.
     
  14. squishydk

    squishydk

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    AI in general isn't as easy as it sounds, otherwise it would have been implented in more places.

    There is quite a few things that need to work, to make it work well. The AI need to drive decent competetive times. That is under control-ish by now. Then you need the AI to drive different depending on car, and if you want it realistic, on driver skills. Overtaking is another thing completly.

    This is just some of the things that all have to work perfect at the same time. While it would be splendid if they did, im confident we won't see that for many years. AI will be better, no doubt. But perfect? Not a chance. My guess would be that making a really good AI takes as long as the rest of the game combined.

    comparing GT AI (as people here want it) with GRID etc, is out of the line (no phun intended). In GRID the AI can crash into you, push you around etc. That wouldn't be possible in a real racing game, and im sure if we got GRIDs AI in GT, people would moan about that.

    That been said, i think I for one will be satisfied with the AI for the period i have to strugle with it, until i advance to online.
     
  15. Stonemonkey

    Stonemonkey

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    I take it you don't follow F1.
     
  16. eSZee

    eSZee

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    When doing qualifying yes, they take the best line. In a race however, you have to asses the situation and take the line that works at the moment. Not to mention fatigue, not all race types, that also makes it hard to stay on the best possible line, cars being in the way as well. I've been watching a lot of BTCC lately and my preconception of everyone taking the perfect racing line ALL THE TIME was erased almost instantly.
     
  17. evilfoxhound

    evilfoxhound (Banned)

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  18. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The thing with BTCC is that the level of allowed contact between cars is really quite high, so the drivers aren't too bashful about sidling alongside each other at relatively inappropriate times. :dopey:
    It's a bit like when James Toseland went to MotoGP from British Superbikes; in the first race he was muscling and elbowing his way through the pack, much to their disdain!

    Club racing, which I feel is representative of the majority of races in GT, is a bit more well-behaved, usually.

    Cool! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  19. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ

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    Especially if your the owner/driver :)
     
  20. Dracwolley

    Dracwolley

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    Well... no. But from what I've seen (not F1, obviously), it isn't intense swerving, but it's definitely not one set line that all of the cars follow.
     
  21. almog054

    almog054

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  22. TorqueHappenS08

    TorqueHappenS08

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    Can some one please make a GIF of the castrol supra avoiding the player car, That was just beautiful.

    He really dodged him like his life depended on it.

    My hats off to PD!!



    Also i think this needs to be on the front page.
    Alot of people were afraid of the fact that the AI would still mindlessly ram into them, And this is proof that they are actually Intelligent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  23. Bandit6

    Bandit6

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    I said wow!
     
  24. GPR

    GPR

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    That looks cool. I think I've watched that before but hadn't noticed that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  25. No46_TheDoctor

    No46_TheDoctor

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    Highlights of a 15 lap race I had the other day, skip to 3:40 to see the Ford GT make a few moves, and even a last corner bid for the lead ! Wish the online "A.I" was as good as this ;)

     
  26. TokyoDrift

    TokyoDrift (Banned)

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    Nice driving Doc! ;)
     
  27. chepe371

    chepe371

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    Super GT, they take turns 2 sometimes 3 wide, alot of side to side action on the straights, not much single filing.

    [​IMG]

    For those who didnt see it.
     
  28. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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  29. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    I find myself doing the railing thing as well when I’m on a long run, getting very bored of the race. The cars in GT5p only will move around once you get with in a certain distance. I really don’t understand why the AI waits so long to make a action. Hopefully the AI will change in the next GT in a great deal. It’s would be nice for a update to GT 5p with some items from GT 5.
    :crazy:
     
  30. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ

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    I just had a nice 10 lap race on Fuji F in Prologue with a GT-R, S2 tyres, tuned suspension --> in Arcade, Pro Physics against 15 AI. Withan AI level of 75, as set by Prologue to match my car.

    Started at 8th and just managed to get into first on the last lap, beating a Viper. Average lap time was around 1:48.5. My current PB is 1:48 flat with a stock GT-R in S2 tyres, ranked about 800 or something.

    I usually don't notice what the AI is doing while racing, but watching the replay, on the 2nd lap I saw the AI go 3 abreast braking into the first turn - GT-R, Art Morrison Corvette and Audi R8 - just ahead of me

    I also see an Audi R8 go wide at the bottom of the track a lap later. Then another R8 tries to dive up the inside of me in the first turn braking zone.See more cars disperse down the straight, with an F40 wobbling about after doing an evasive maneuver etc etc
    When my camera recharges I'll take a pic of the replay to show ya

    The AI is probably better than a lot of other games IMO. You might not see everything it does in short races, but do more of them, and for longer and you will see the AI is a big upgrade from GT4 and drives far cleaner than the ones in other games.


    You see videos bagging Forza 3's AI and likewise for Shift, but I don't see too many videos bagging Prologues :)

    Shift
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010