Sixaxis to G25 - 1 Year

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5: Prologue' started by Synwraith, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. Synwraith

    Synwraith Staff Emeritus

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    Hey guys,

    I realise there are already a number of threads regarding the difference between using a wheel and a Sixaxis controller for GT5P, but I thought I'd actually post a day by day journal of sorts to document my personal transition between the two very different types of controller. It might be of use to some of you who are undecided whether the wheel is worth the purchase, whether it will make you faster and achieve the laptimes you just can't with a Sixaxis.

    Just before I go into the details, here's a little backstory. I've been using the pad for Gran Turismo since the days of Gran Turismo 1 on Playstation 1. I have had every incarnation of the game and up to GT5P have used the directional D-pad buttons for steering, and X and square for throttle and brake. When I finally came online in GT5P and realised how much faster some of the wheel users are compared to my Sixaxis ability, I decided I needed better tools and started using the analog shoulder buttons for modulated brakes and gas. It helped a lot, but I could still see big deficits on certain combos. I qualified for the GTP registry in Division 2 Bronze and have since improved to Division 2 silver, winning the Event 02 Division 2 bronze class championship and also came second in the GTP Sixaxis championship. I had gotten to the stage where I was very very into my Sixaxis and it was pretty much second nature, however difficult the combo.

    Having achieved everything I believed was possible with my Sixaxis use (maybe more would have been possible had I been comfortable using the analog sticks for steering - which I'm not), I was not satisfied enough to just leave it there and be happy with my position. I take the game very seriously, it's my main hobby and I feel my dedication and level of ability I believe I have (hah!) deserved better equipment. Basically, I wanted to know how good I really was. How I stack up against the really talented guys, and not to use the Sixaxis as an excuse any more. So as soon as it was financially viable (i.e. last Sunday) having achieved what i set out to do, I bought a Logitech G25 steering wheel.

    Today was my first day with the G25, here are the main things that have come out of day 1.

    Day 1 - 08/04/09

    • The G25 is a marvellous and beautifully-made piece of kit. I know the cliched statement of "Oh it doesn't matter how fast it makes you, it's the experience" that we've all heard, but seriously, 5 minutes of use and I felt like a kid at Christmas (to quote EDK :lol:). This is the only way to play Gran Turismo, it's breathtakingly good fun. I sucked tremendously, lost all my 'talent' but it was wild.
    • The first combo I tried was WRX at High Speed Ring and everything felt pretty good but I realised just how incredibly difficult it is to catch a slide, or correct a big moment or tankslapper. I found I didn't even know where exactly the wheel was (upside down? right way up?) and I was shifting up instead of down while twirling the wheel madly to correct the spin.
    • The second combo, somewhat stupidly, wa s atime trial I had spent hours on the day before on Sixaxis. 512 BB at Eiger reverse on S2s. While this was a great laugh, it didn't go too well. I was having trouble applying the correct and appropriate amount of steering, throttle, brake, everything was out of whack. This probably wasn't a great combo to get accustomed to the wheel with. I was probably 5 or 6 seconds off my best lap time here on the one lap I did manage to complete! Oversteer correction was the main main issue here, when I applied enough opposite lock to correct it, I realised why the wheel has 900 degrees of rotation. Expect to use them when correcting.
    • Third combo was Mazda RX7 at Fuji F time trial on S2s. Things went a lot better here and STRAIGHT away I realised how all those super slick D1 gold guys manage such beautiful turn 1s at Fuji. The amount of control you have over throttle and steering angle just make turn 1 a wonderful pleasure. I never managed such sweet turn 1s at Fuji with Sixaxis on this combo. Another immediate change was the chicane. On Sixaxis you have to be really lucky or alien-skilled to always get the most out of the chicane without getting too much wheelspin in 2nd or oversteer in the RX7. With the G25, it's so easy to maintain a constant appropriate level of acceleration. This was basically where I spent the second hour of my first day on G25, and while I only completed about 1 out of 5 laps cleanly, my best lap was about 1.5 seconds off my best previous lap. Also T3 at Fuji is something of a dream with a wheel compared to Sixaxis, especially for someone who used a d-pad to steer!
    • At this point I was advised to maybe start the game again and do all the C, B. A and S events again, still on pro and without aids, which is how I had been driving so far. This helped a lot and while the cars behave so much differently and I have had to adopt a completely new approach to braking and turning, especially how to apply lift-off oversteer, something amazing has happened. I have fallen in love with Eiger Nordwand. Eiger with a G25 is immense. After something like 3 hours of driving Cappucinos at High Speed Ring, Integras at Daytona oval and HSR, maxed out Lotus Evoras at Fuji, Suzuka East etc...Eiger is beautiful. That could just be that the Integra and R3-shod Evora make light work of a technical circuit but still, fantastic.
    • I found turn 1 at Suzuka/Suzuka East very very tricky to get the hang of the first 5 or so times. The transition between coming off the brakes at the first apex and re-applying them for the second apex etc was causing me to spin everywhere, but I have mostly gotten the hang of it. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
    • By the end of my first day with the G25, despite the shouts of joy and massive grin, I am about 25% of the way there to being able to catch a big slide or serious oversteer moment. I just apply masses of opposite lock and then do my best to get the wheel back to straight position asap. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's just tragic, but always fun. And the satisfaction you get from rescuing a slide with the wheel is far beyond any sensation I ever had with the standard Sixaxis.
    • I had been using Force feedback of 5 all day. A massive thank you to EDK and Timppaq for the advice on button mapping and combo selection.
    • I haven't used the six speed shifter or the clutch, basically because of OLR rules on GTP I figured I might as well get used to the normal way of driving with the wheel, and that is to not use the clutch. I was using the paddles on the wheel for shifting, and it has been superb.
    • I'm not using any sort of playseat or stand yet, just attached the thing to a plank of wood suspended on 2 chairs while I sit on 4 cushions leaning against a backwards-facing chair, propped up against the sofa :lol:
    • To conclude Day 1, this is the best gaming purchase I have ever made. I cannot stress that enough, today has been a wonderful experience. It is very hard to drive as consistently and as fast as I used to, I'm probably 2 or 3 seconds off my pace at most tracks but I can see the potential for improvement. Fuji's turn 1, chicane and T3 have shown me that. Time will bring the rest. I don't feel that the best thing would be to lock myself away and hotlap, I cannot wait to throw this thing into a race and have some fun :mischievous:


    FURTHER UPDATES:

    Day 2
    Day 3
    Day 4
    Day 5
    Day 6
    Day 7
    Days 8 + 9
    Day 10
    Days 11 + 12
    Day 13
    Days 14 to 16
    Day 25
    1 Month
    3 Months
    4 Months
    6 Months
    1 Year

    Wow, they don't call me Anne for nuthin..

    All the best
    Maz
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  2. spyrrari

    spyrrari

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    Great writeup Synwraith...now you know why us wheel users always talked different about the experience of driving gt5p...:sly:...:lol:

    (only not me at the moment...but thats another story...:yuck:)


    spyrrari.
     
  3. Fastas

    Fastas Premium

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    Maz!!! you did it - you finally went out and bought one:lol:

    I'm sorry to hear you came second in the sixaxis event, I was (secretly) routing for you! seriously though, well done, you had some mega tough competition in there.

    All the best D.
     
  4. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Thanks for the great in depth write up Maz :cheers:

    I kind of regret reading that though :lol: While I was reading your impressions I had a few glimpses in my imagination of all the fun I would be having if my wheel were here as well...and then reality hit :ouch: haha! I'll probably do like you and start off slowly with a easy track like HSR and work my way up, possibly re-doing the A,B,C events as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how things go for you in the next few days.

    Edit: You may have to pull out the whipping stick on me when my wheel shows up...I'm sure you'll enjoy the revenge :sly: :lol:
     
  5. cpp214

    cpp214 Premium

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    Thanks for the great, detailed update Maz :tup:

    Now I really can't wait to get mine :dopey:

    Looks like mine will be arriving Monday instead of Friday :grumpy:
    But that's okay. Can't wait to hear updates on your progress in the coming days :cheers:
     
  6. FLASH48

    FLASH48

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    Hey Synwraith, you could have raced HSR with me today. You should have just used the paddles for the race. I was all alone for three races, no other GTP tagged drivers at all.
     
  7. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    Maz -

    Great write up. Glad to finally have you on the dark side, with the wheelers. As you've said, driving with the wheel is an incredible experience. :tup:
     
  8. PaganiC12

    PaganiC12

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    Synwraith:

    The first time I played GT5P was at a friends house, and I was drifting the 135i with a controller, and it was very easy. I now have a Logitech G25 and drifting is a lot harder (more realistic) and I realized why. It is because on a control half an inch of movement is the full movement of the steering wheel in the game so counter-steering is very, very easy. This is not the case with a steering wheel, however, the force feedback motors on the G25 are some of the best I have ever encountered, coming from 2 older Logitech/Gran Turismo wheels. And drifting gets easier and easier if you let go of the wheel completely, since the tires naturally want to face forward, and if you just catch it and hold. It takes practice, but you hold amazing slides after figuring out how long to let go for.

    Overall, great review and you'll enjoy the G25 day after day. Mine is having problems with reverse and I'm hoping to get a replacement, but I still love it.

    Lastly, regarding Suzuka's first corner, do all your breaking for the first apex on the straight away, then turn in, then have your wheel pointing straight and apply the brakes, let off the brakes and turn in. Any braking while turning is wasting friction.
     
  9. EERS4YEARS

    EERS4YEARS (Banned)

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    That was really fun to read, and brutally honest also (much appreciated.) I couldn't keep the cars on track the first day, when FFB was felt for the first time... a HUGE smile came to my face. Congrats, and keep writing, Ill be reading.
     
  10. Mad94d

    Mad94d Premium

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    Great write up.:tup: Great to see you got a wheel, they are definetely worth it.

    I had the same problem as you with not being able to catch slides, It's very difficult not to overcorrect and go flying off the other side of the track. You'll pick up speed because as you said, you can be so much more precise with steering and throttle inputs. You just won't be able to go back to a sixaxis now.:lol:
     
  11. AutoAki

    AutoAki Premium

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    Nice to see You finally took that step, and bought wheel. :tup:

    Prepare yourself to going in deep self-accusations: 'oh my god! Noooo!!! Why I waited so long!?' ;)
     
  12. Synwraith

    Synwraith Staff Emeritus

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    Yeah I fully understand it now, I just always learn things later than everybody else!

    Hey Dan, yes I took the plunge finally. Watching a video that Dan Hyperspeed posted a little while ago, watching top drivers' replays and seeing the kind of control they were able to employ and hearing your little tale of getting the wheel as well was quite the inspiration. And as for coming second, I'm in no way disappointed mate, I was beaten by the best and it still went 3 rounds :D

    I really can't see that ever happening bro, you'll be a class act on the wheel as well, and it truly will not take you long to hit your Sixaxis heights. I have no doubts about this from my first day's experience.

    I won't be able to spend every day on it obviously, but in the next week or so I hope to get some sort of progress report up as long as the interest remains in the thread. I don't want to spam ;) But thanks for reading mate. Also, feel free to add your own experiences of your transition here as well, the comparison might be very valuable :tup:


    Hey John, I was using the paddles all day long yesterday. It would have been great to race you but I think with my current uncomfortable seating position, 10 laps would have done irreparable damage to my spine :lol:

    5-year-old at Christmas! :lol:

    Exactly! Well said mate, and cheers for the advice on Suzuka.

    :tup: I'll have another entry put in tonight. Be interesting to see how it goes today, better or worse.

    Right now I could probably step back into Sixaxis mode and be faster, but give it a week and you could well be right. The thing is, I really don't WANT to go back now :)

    I was saying that after 5 minutes mate, I was living in the stone-age :lol:

    All the best
    Maz
     
  13. Boffin

    Boffin

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    this is a great write up...really helpful for someone looking to make the same transition...thanks!:tup:
     
  14. AutoAki

    AutoAki Premium

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    I think that best advice what I gave to few of my friends, when they were learning how to drive with wheel and specially how to act when car is sliding, was:

    'Dont be gentle when youre about to loose control... when your tail starts to slide, youre already late, so your correcting move MUST be immediate, and very quick... but dont turn too much, cause slide number 1 is not that one you should be afraid...'

    If your table cant stay on the floor, when youre doing hard correcting moves, I recommend immediately to put some weight on it. If you cant do correcting moves very quickly, you will spin many times because that.

    Also keep tension about your gas input when doing emergency correct-moves... different situations needs different type of accelerating. I feel that when you are loosing it with huge speeds, just lift up gas littlebit or not at all, and when low speeds, little more. I think that it's weight transfer what kills you if you lift whole gaspedal when you have lots of speed, and youre trying to save yourself.

    I also want to mention that I hardly never need to turn wheel more than quarter when doing moves... it's only about how quickly you realize whats happening, and how fast you can do correcting.

    Some Ferrari engineers said, that their telemetry showed that Schummy did correcting moves before slides were even started! That guy really had amazing butt-feel... but I can regognize that feeling, and in GT5P I very often correct before slides starts too. Fuji's last right-hander is good example where you almost everytime need to correct before slide even start.
     
  15. Synwraith

    Synwraith Staff Emeritus

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    Aki that's great advice. What FFB setting do you use and how does the wheel warn you that a slide is imminent?

    All the best
    Maz
     
  16. AutoAki

    AutoAki Premium

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    I use FF 10, and ofcourse Steering Ass OFF... also check that your driving option is 'Simulate'.

    I dont know is there any signs when tail is going to start slide... I just know it few .thousands before. Propably it's matter about how good you know the track, and those spinning-traps there. Sometimes I feel that when I'm driving, I turn wheel more to opposite directions, than directions where track is going... but I'm 'oversteer-driver' more than understeer. I think all Finish dudes learn to drive more sideways than normally.


    ps. Dont forget my YouTube-channel... there you can easily see my steering inputs, and hear accelerating. Just put good earphones, and try to 'get in'. I have received many thanks about that my videos are from in-cam, and people could see how my wheel is doing, even it's not so fast everytime than my actions, but it's quite close.
     
  17. MJH

    MJH

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    Nice write up Maz. Very jealous. Want one now.
     
  18. Jay

    Jay Premium

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    Exactly, even before oversteer starts you have the 'feel' and you make fast counter twitches while getting on the throttle has hard as you can (holding a very minor slip angle)

    Indeed, it is a sense you learn without thinking of it, you can't pinpoint it to something, just a combinations of everything you are taking in and your experience.
     
  19. MeAgainstYou

    MeAgainstYou

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    you bet! :lol: the trick is to always avoid if possible that situations... otherwise we'll lose lots of time

    when i use the pad i really hated eiger but now with the wheel its my favourite track! :)

    Im glad that you have it... you will be ace on the next week! ...looking forward for close races with you :tup:
     
  20. Sureboss

    Sureboss Premium

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    As someone who has recently gone from pad to wheel (DFGT) it is a completely different experience. A lot more enjoyable, do I dare say that It doesn't feel like I'm playing a computer game?
     
  21. Jay

    Jay Premium

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    Which is why Eiger is and always has been my favorite track in GT5P.
     
  22. mc959

    mc959

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    Well, i think i gonna buy a wheel before GT5 comes out, thx for the great review
     
  23. Jay

    Jay Premium

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    Considering you can get a DFGT for only $30 above the retail of the DS3 in Australia good wheels are not out of the reach of even casual racers.
     
  24. mr_VOLCANO

    mr_VOLCANO

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    Great write up Maz :) Give it some time and you might go even faster with G25. I recomend tryin FF strenght at 10, you feel more what the car is doing then.

    I only have DFP, anyone tried both g25 and DFP? How does FF feel compare to DFP?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  25. MeAgainstYou

    MeAgainstYou

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    i have tried both... G25 its a lot better in everything but DFP has also good strenght :tup: the worst of the DFP is the speed of rotation... its too slow!
     
  26. Jay

    Jay Premium

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    I had a DFP before my G25, feedback itself is much the same but you dont have the natural strong resistance of the DFP, if you need/want to make quick serious countersteer to catch oversteer the wheel allows fast rotation (like drifting in real life) and doesn't Whirrrrrrr like the DFP, but the feedback is still there.
     
  27. mr_VOLCANO

    mr_VOLCANO

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    Thanks, I have used my DFP since early gt4 days, Im very suprised it still works :lol: Is it less dead zone in G25? Sounds like I need a new wheel..
     
  28. cpp214

    cpp214 Premium

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    ...My G25 arrived this morning

    *rushes home at lunch to make sure it is there*

    *sees the box, rubs eyes to make sure it is real...it is :dopey:)*

    *opens box like 4 year old on Christmas morning (quickly, but carefully as the G25 box is somewhat of a tight squeeze)*

    *looks at pedals, shifter, wheel itself...almost jumps for joy* :lol::bowdown::cheers::dopey:

    *wonders how to set up wheel, because waiting for wheelstand to arrive is out of the question now...*
     
  29. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Congrats Carl :cheers:

    You can do like Mad did :lol:

    [​IMG]
     
  30. cpp214

    cpp214 Premium

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    Double post :ouch::banghead:

    Sorry