slick tyres really coming back in 09?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rocket Punch
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Some pics of today

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Blake
Still with reduced downforce they’ll have almost as much trouble putting the power down. Also the 2009 rules are also intended to create more drag via wider cars. They’re increasing the maximum width by 20cm, so higher top speeds aren’t necessarily a given…
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Ah right.
 
I'd love to see slicks back on F1 cars.

But here's something no one has mentioned yet. Another way to reduce turbulence and improve overtaking oppurtunities is to ban winglets and bring back ground effects. We'd end up with F1 cars that look similar to IndyCars (which also look much cleaner than today's F1 cars).

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Graham Rahal's Dallara-Honda IndyCar at this year's St. Petersburg GP.

Now of course he's not running slicks in the rain, but the car looks awesome slicing through the water!
 
VNAF Ace
But here's something no one has mentioned yet. Another way to reduce turbulence and improve overtaking oppurtunities is to ban winglets and bring back ground effects.
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Winglets are banned from '09. Ground effects I don't know much about, but I do know that if you suddenly lose the ground effect, you're probably headed for the wall - and for that reason I don't think we'll see them back, or at least in a heavily sanitized form.
 
How exactly do you lose ground effect? I've never heard any announcer mention it in the 12 years I've followed IndyCar racing.
 
Ground effect can be dangerous if the air flow underneath the car is suddenly lost, by bottoming out. The sudden drop in traction can easily cause the driver to lose control.

It was banned because it created to high cornering speeds. If the skirts that were used to create the downforce were to 'stick up' in a corner, or even on a straight, it would result in a massive loss of any downforce thats was being created and I would guess a massive accident.

It took no skill to driver a ground effect car, really just strength and some good luck.
 
I was gonna say, that's one reason I wouldn't want to see a return (although I do believe Formula 1 cars still gather a substantial amount of downforce from the underbody due to the physics involved, even with a ban).
 
Ground effect can also be lost by getting the car slightly off the ground for example in a collision, breaking the vacuum underneath it. Then it becomes one very small and deadly aircraft without wings.

Senna didn't die because he lost ground effect, the '94 cars didn't have ground effect anymore. The actual ground effect was created by the bottom of the car being shaped like a wing but the rules today (and already in '94) say that the bottom must be flat between the axles. The cars still have diffusers today behind the rear axle which do create some downforce but it's far from the actual ground effect cars. The force of the diffuser is measured in hundreds of kilograms maximum, the ground effect when properly designed can produce tons.
 
Ground effect cars aren’t that dangerous when engineered properly.

Back in the day these were cars made out of aluminium that had rarely graced the grounds of a wind tunnel for a day, let alone spent months being developed using CFD before spending time confirming the results with wind tunnel testing before even coming in contact with tarmac, and then spending thousands of kilometres of on-track testing. The engineers barely knew what the air under the car was actually doing!

The fact that they were made out of metal made them very dangerous in an accident, and the cars didn’t even have crash tests until 1985! It’s no wonder, with quickly rising corner speeds, that they got a reputation as killer cars.

But the technology behind ground effects is not that dangerous, and the cars and circuits these days are considerably safer then ever before, let alone back in the hay-day of ground effects. IMO ground effects would be a perfectly safe technology to bring back. The biggest problem would be the physical demands of such high G forces that ground effects would allow through the length of a GP distance.
 
Greycap
Ground effect can also be lost by getting the car slightly off the ground for example in a collision, breaking the vacuum underneath it. Then it becomes one very small and deadly aircraft without wings.

Senna didn't die because he lost ground effect, the '94 cars didn't have ground effect anymore. The actual ground effect was created by the bottom of the car being shaped like a wing but the rules today (and already in '94) say that the bottom must be flat between the axles. The cars still have diffusers today behind the rear axle which do create some downforce but it's far from the actual ground effect cars. The force of the diffuser is measured in hundreds of kilograms maximum, the ground effect when properly designed can produce tons.
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From what I understand of the crash wouldn't that still be classed as ground effect aerodynamics - even if the "ground effect cars" from the late 70's and 80's were less restricted? It was still using the relationship between the chassis and the ground as an tool for aerodynamic grip.
 
mustang245
Is this thread slick tires, ground effects or Barcelona testing? WTF?
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Good point, but seeing as Appie started posting pictures, I put my own post here.



New-part summation from Barcelona, as of Day Two:

Ferrari: Radical new front, integrating the concepts outlined here by a user on F1Technical - over half a year before an F1 team tries it. The opening, which sends more air onto the rear wing, and also reduces lift-causing pressure under the nose. It's similar in essence to Williams' Tusknose.

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McLaren: No parts, testing a 2007-esque Monza package with slicks.


BMW: A short sharkfin, like Red Bull's but smaller:

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Renault: New front-wing, and a sharkfin like Red Bull's. This one, however, is the largest yet.

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Honda: Major update. Elephant-ears made a comeback, front wheels now have rimshields, and a new W-wing on the rear.

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Red Bull: Connection between the front bargeboard and the chimneys. Also a new front wing, I think?

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Williams: A whole new front wing, very BMW-esque with a new "spoon" in the middle.

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Toro Rosso: STR3 being assembled! At last. :cheers:

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Greycap
Senna didn't die because he lost ground effect, the '94 cars didn't have ground effect anymore. The actual ground effect was created by the bottom of the car being shaped like a wing but the rules today (and already in '94) say that the bottom must be flat between the axles. The cars still have diffusers today behind the rear axle which do create some downforce but it's far from the actual ground effect cars. The force of the diffuser is measured in hundreds of kilograms maximum, the ground effect when properly designed can produce tons.
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Diffusors are a form of ground effects, whether it fits the classic description or not - it's the same thing. A diffusor would simply be more effective with tunnels - but the tunnels are useless without a diffusor to extract the air. Flat, curved - as long as it's not exposed (NASCAR-style), and creates downforce by lowering pressure under the car, it's ground-effects.

As for Senna's death it's speculated that Senna bottomed out, starving his diffusor of airflow, hence costing him rear downforce. This sent him in a slide, which he (almost ironically) corrected too fast, sending him off the track and into the wall. If he indeed bottomed out, then yes - what killed him would be called failing ground-effects.
 
god that Williams looks sexy with slick tyres
 
Appie
Whats the problem with you? It says in the first post about slick tyres and the tests in Barcelona.
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No problem with you, bro. Without moderation, the thread has spiraled OT with indy, ground effects, etc. You & Metar are posting high quality pix regarding Barcelona testing and I appreciate them. How 'bout day 2 times and such? Discussions pertaining to lap times/ perceived performance gains??
 
mustang245
No problem with you, bro. Without moderation, the thread has spiraled OT with indy, ground effects, etc. You & Metar are posting high quality pix regarding Barcelona testing and I appreciate them. How 'bout day 2 times and such? Discussions pertaining to lap times/ perceived performance gains??
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Day 1
Code: 
Pos  Driver        Team                      Time      Laps
 1.  Massa         Ferrari              (B)  1:18.339   77
 2.  Wurz          Honda                (B)  1:21.059   75
 3.  de la Rosa    McLaren-Mercedes     (B)  1:21.566  113
 4.  Heidfeld      BMW-Sauber           (B)  1:21.679  105
 5.  Piquet        Renault              (B)  1:22.125   69
 6.  Coulthard     Red Bull-Renault     (B)  1:22.197   59
 7.  Nakajima      Williams-Toyota      (B)  1:22.431   72
 8.  Glock         Toyota               (B)  1:22.590   92
 9.  Liuzzi        Force India-Ferrari  (B)  1:22.846   91
Day 2
Code: 
Pos  Driver        Team                      Time      Laps
 1.  Barrichello   Honda                (B)  1:18.928   77
 2.  Fisichella    Force India-Ferrari  (B)  1:19.721   79
 3.  Massa         Ferrari              (B)  1:20.283  113
 4.  Coulthard     Red Bull-Renault     (B)  1:20.392   87
 5.  Hamilton      McLaren-Mercedes     (B)  1:20.452   96
 6.  Alonso        Renault              (B)  1:20.616  118
 7.  Rosberg       Williams-Toyota      (B)  1:20.800  115
 8.  Glock         Toyota               (B)  1:20.870  112
 9.  Heidfeld      BMW-Sauber           (B)  1:20.981   97

Good?
 
mustang245
How 'bout day 2 times and such? Discussions pertaining to lap times/ perceived performance gains??
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Times are useless at Barcelona, since everyone's on a different programme. Massa's fastest lap on Slicks yesterday was almost three seconds faster than his time on groovies - but he ran contemporary aero, as well.

Same happened today with Honda, as Barrichello went fastest overall.


Appie posted 'em, though.
 
Very nice, guys. The drivers are testing in earnest and there is always room for speculation. Rubens just 3 tenths off Massa's time on slicks, impressive. Alonso's 119 laps(2 race distance), grueling. Interesting to see who's looking to next year while others testing looks to next GP. OT, it seems MSC took a spill ( @ 80 kph ) on a German superbike, thankfully he's unhurt and his wife, Corinna, doesn't seem to mind his two-wheel endeavors. Perception being reality, or not, it seems Alonso has found some time @ 1'20.6 compared to Glock, whom he couldn't catch at Malaysia.
 
mustang245
Very nice, guys. The drivers are testing in earnest and there is always room for speculation. Rubens just 3 tenths off Massa's time on slicks, impressive. Alonso's 119 laps(2 race distance), grueling. Interesting to see who's looking to next year while others testing looks to next GP. OT, it seems MSC took a spill ( @ 80 kph ) on a German superbike, thankfully he's unhurt and his wife, Corinna, doesn't seem to mind his two-wheel endeavors. Perception being reality, or not, it seems Alonso has found some time @ 1'20.6 compared to Glock, whom he couldn't catch at Malaysia.
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I think you mean Bahrain;)
 

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