Slipstream in GT5

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analog
Hope i get this right, by catch-up you mean rubberbanding which is unrealistic and thus arcade, so i agree with you on this one.
Slipstream however is realistic and using it is part of racing, i use it all the time, it's not cheating or arcade-ish.
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Just to clarify, i was referring to the unrealistic levels of slipstream that we saw in Prologue and from videos we have seen of various national finals of GT Academy.

There has to be some slipstream, but not a hugely exaggerated amount of it. I hear the Irish national finals had it good, i don't think it was switched off completely, but it was certainly at mnore realistic levels than other finals.
 
Seismica
There has to be some slipstream, but not a hugely exaggerated amount of it. I hear the Irish national finals had it good, i don't think it was switched off completely, but it was certainly at more realistic levels than other finals.
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oh... i really really hope you're right but i doubt... :D
 
Not an easy thing to recreate I'm sure, I agree it was exaggerated in Prologue.

The way each car will behave will vary so much I imagine the parameters are mind boggling, not least the effect of 'dirty air' before you get in that slipstream zone.

If you're closely following someone then the downforce, especially under braking means that weight can shift in a manner that is not intended for your setup. This is where skill really comes into its own and if this can somehow be accurately represented in the game then we will have some interesting races!
 
I think the slipstream should be realistic to begin with and that's it, no options for it. Other than the fact when you tune your cars aero you may change the slipstream size, but that's only if its a major change (like completely removing a wing :p)

cletus 669
That was in a VAN so the slipstream would naturaly be larger and still only can be felt at 4 to 5 meters, so with that information I think that the slipstream effect in GT5P is definately too strong and should be reduced.
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Cars with large wings also have very large wakes (slipstream area). A car smaller than a family sedan with large wings could easily have a wake the same size as that of a small truck or large van.
 
Coiler
But the range of it is very arcade style.
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that's where the most work is needed, in the range at which there is an effect. in GT5P at Daytona you can get a draft from about 8-10 car lengths away in my experience.

i know it's not quite the same, but still, i was watching the Daytona 500 on sunday and even with the new aero package and bigger restrictor plate for the Cup cars; to get a draft the car in back had to be within at least 3 car lengths of the car in front. even when cars would get a huge run it would only be by 3-6 mph not 15-25 like in GT5P.
 
WolfRacer543
I think the slipstream should be realistic to begin with and that's it, no options for it. Other than the fact when you tune your cars aero you may change the slipstream size, but that's only if its a major change (like completely removing a wing :p)



Cars with large wings also have very large wakes (slipstream area). A car smaller than a family sedan with large wings could easily have a wake the same size as that of a small truck or large van.
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Air is a powerful force to be reckoned with and I totally agree with what you are saying. That is why I am hopeing for that wind tunnel in GT5 so that we can tune our aero package before ever going to the track.
 
Hoodie1878
Not an easy thing to recreate I'm sure, I agree it was exaggerated in Prologue.

The way each car will behave will vary so much I imagine the parameters are mind boggling, not least the effect of 'dirty air' before you get in that slipstream zone.

If you're closely following someone then the downforce, especially under braking means that weight can shift in a manner that is not intended for your setup. This is where skill really comes into its own and if this can somehow be accurately represented in the game then we will have some interesting races!
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I dont think there is any game accurately modelling airflow. I think the slipstream would simply involve projecting an invisible cone from the back of a car. Drag parameters would be -whatever when inside it. I doubt they are doing anything more complex than that.
 
I'm still having a hard time believing that the Irish GTAcademy final would get a new build of GT5. It just seems odd. Only way I could see it happening is if PD got tired of the complaints of slipstream at the previous finals and sent over a new build.
 
It's an important point about the slipstream affecting downforce, as through corners, high-downforce cars should have less aerodynamic grip. The problem with this under the current slipstream levels is that cars would be affected mid-corner from way behind the car in front.
 
There's actually a lot that could be done with aero.

Slipstreams: As people have been talking about.

Wind direction and speed: Say you're driving head on into a 30km/h wind (the average wind speed in many cities is around 25-30km/h), compared to a 30km/h tail wind, when you're driving 150km/h, that's a difference of 180 to 120km/h wind speed. Since downforce and drag vary with velocity squared, (180/120)^2 = 2.25 times more aerodynamic force. So you'll be getting more than double the downforce and drag driving into the wind compared to the wind pushing you along. Then you include all the possible yaw angles and your aero forces will have huge variability with wind speed and direction.

Full Aero map: By this I mean how the aero changes due to the pitch and roll of the chassis. Undertrays and front wings in ground effect have massively varying force depending on their ride height, it can totally shift your aero balance back and forth from left to right and front to back as your car pitches and rolls.

Aero isn't something like "you have x newtons of downforce", in reality the aero varies massively as a car goes around a track. Accurate slipstreaming is just one part of it.
 
I'm not a fast driver as well (but I'm improving...).
Still, I do think that GT5P slipstream effect is unrealistic, the distance in reality is much shorter. However, this helps the races to be closer and "hot" rather than each by himself.

I think that for the PRO settings it would be better that the distance will be reduces by around 50%, yet this is not true-to-life but it is kind of a compromise between reality and game fun experience (developers always have to find this thin line in any aspect of the game). As for STANDARD settings (I always play PRO even I'm not so fast), I think the distance is OK but the effect amount (accel speed) should be smaller in order to reduce number of accidents when coming into corners for arcade drivers.

Don't forget - with 5-6 years of development with so much hype this game must fit the majority of PS3 owners in order for PD to earn enough money or else GT6 will be a dream, or again it will take longer than expected development time due to man-power issues.
 
These TT finals are a bit shambolic, and not a good advert for GT5 in terms of more professional online racing.

I hope KY steps up and sorts it out for the final game, but if that is truly representative of the state of expected top tier online racing, It's going to kill the longevity of 'club' racing..
 
Just for the record, there was no slipstream in the Irish national finals. It was completely off. I had the opportunity to test it a few times while racing.
 
Ardius
👍 Glad to see I'm not the only one who sees the other sides of the coin.

I also hate the rubber banding for true racing, as it effectively throws all the hard work to build up a lead out the window. However, I can appreciate not everyone enjoys full on simulation racing, especially as this game has a broader audience than the average simulation* game.

All they need to do is allow full options, then everyone should be happy. If they want to make it simple, they can stick exaggerated slipstream in "standard" physics mode and realistic slipstream in "simulation" physics mode, at least it would make sense then. Otherwise, allow it to be adjusted for custom races.

*Simulation in the sense of attempting to simulate something realistic and being aimed at shall we say "hardcore" players.[/QUOT
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SHAUN09
Ardius
👍 Glad to see I'm not the only one who sees the other sides of the coin.

I also hate the rubber banding for true racing, as it effectively throws all the hard work to build up a lead out the window. However, I can appreciate not everyone enjoys full on simulation racing, especially as this game has a broader audience than the average simulation* game.

All they need to do is allow full options, then everyone should be happy. If they want to make it simple, they can stick exaggerated slipstream in "standard" physics mode and realistic slipstream in "simulation" physics mode, at least it would make sense then. Otherwise, allow it to be adjusted for custom races.

*Simulation in the sense of attempting to simulate something realistic and being aimed at shall we say "hardcore" players.
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i have no real problem with slipstreaming but yh it is quite powerful in gt5p. not entirely sure how strong it was in Gt4 but it was probably weaker.
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yossigab
I'm not a fast driver as well (but I'm improving...).
Still, I do think that GT5P slipstream effect is unrealistic, the distance in reality is much shorter. However, this helps the races to be closer and "hot" rather than each by himself.

I think that for the PRO settings it would be better that the distance will be reduces by around 50%, yet this is not true-to-life but it is kind of a compromise between reality and game fun experience (developers always have to find this thin line in any aspect of the game). As for STANDARD settings (I always play PRO even I'm not so fast), I think the distance is OK but the effect amount (accel speed) should be smaller in order to reduce number of accidents when coming into corners for arcade drivers.

Don't forget - with 5-6 years of development with so much hype this game must fit the majority of PS3 owners in order for PD to earn enough money or else GT6 will be a dream, or again it will take longer than expected development time due to man-power issues.
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that is a very good point
 
The exaggerated draft will ruin oval racing.

In oval racing your fighting to go .1 or .2 a lap faster then the guy behind you. If he can get a 20mph draft on every straight away then it becomes pointless.

Drafting in NASCAR is not as pronounced as people may think. The reason why the draft is so powerful at Daytona and Talladega is because the cars run restrictor plates there that rob them of half their horsepower so the draft is more important because the cars dont have that much power to propel themselves so wind resistance is much more important. But even then a driver may get 10mph run on someone with a BUMP draft.

Things that need to be fixed with GT5's draft:

  • Draft potency depends on the car's shape and drag. Ex: openwheel cars should draft better then stock cars because openwheel cars produce more drag and thus punch a bigger hole in the air for the following car to follow
  • Two cars nose to tail should both go faster. This is because driving right behind someone's bumper takes the air off their rear spoiler and the nose of the trailing car so they both go faster
  • Aero Loose and Aero Tight should be modeled. Running close to someone's rear in a high speed corner should make you understeer and should make the car in front oversteer.
 
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dave_sz
really? A restrictor plate takes away some 400hp just like that?
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Think of cutting off about half of the air you breathe in. You'd have your energy reduced pretty quickly.
 
dave_sz
really? A restrictor plate takes away some 400hp just like that?
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Heres a wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictor_plate#NASCAR

Its just a plate that goes over the carburetor's air inlet and reduces air intake

That info is a bit old, current stock cars make 830hp and the restrictor plate has been made bigger, now the cars have about 460HP at Daytona yet they still reach 200mph.

Only in GT5 will we see what they can do with 830 horsepower at Daytona

230, 235mph?
 
The restrictor plate used at Daytona last weekend was only 1/64th of an inch larger than the restrictor plate used last year, and that increased the horsepower by about 18 horsepower.
 
Earth
Heres a wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictor_plate#NASCAR

Its just a plate that goes over the carburetor's air inlet and reduces air intake

That info is a bit old, current stock cars make 830hp and the restrictor plate has been made bigger, now the cars have about 460HP at Daytona yet they still reach 200mph.

Only in GT5 will we see what they can do with 830 horsepower at Daytona

230, 235mph?
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Unless its like NR2003, where the circuit determines the restrictor plate, i think its Daytona, Indianapolis and... Texas?
 
chepe371
Unless its like NR2003, where the circuit determines the restrictor plate, i think its Daytona, Indianapolis and... Texas?
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In NR2003 the plates are only used at Talladega and Daytona. You go into each track's .ini file and change the "chassis" used at that track to "speedway" which would remove the restrictor plate

Today's cars make more power but are less aero dynamic then the cars used in 2002

I wonder if PD will enforce the plates at Daytona. I hope they dont because it would make the cars far more challenging to drive and would reward a good driver and better handling car more because you would have to lift alot.

wikipedia
Rusty Wallace tested a car at Talladega Superspeedway without a restrictor plate in 2004, reaching a top speed of 228 mph (367 km/h) in the backstretch and a one-lap average of 221 mph (356 km/h). [2] Wallace subsequently described the experience as "out of control," and admitted that NASCAR could easily fix this by using modern aerodynamics, mechanical systems, and electronics.
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This was just a test for radio equipment so they weren't looking for top speed, Wallace said 230 or 235 in a straight line if they were serious. Sounds kind of scary about the car being out of control, I've heard people say that he thought it would lift off at any moment.

The question is, would it be safe for PD to let the cars race at Daytona unrestricted when they are so low tech and handle so bad?

The spotter said the sound of the car flying by at 225mph unrestricted was what he would remember most.
 
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IMO, based on what I experienced and saw at the UK Academy finals yesterday, the slipstream was still there, but much reduced vs GT5P.
 
Stotty
IMO, based on what I experienced and saw at the UK Academy finals yesterday, the slipstream was still there, but much reduced vs GT5P.
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I can agree with this mostly but not "much reduced". In my race against PrudentBear on lap 2 I caught him by the line at Indy from pretty far back and he did the same to me on lap 3. Monster drafts both of them.

Also a couple of folks got killer drafts down to Indy first corner and really outbraked themslves in the first race of the day at the UK national finals, I really didn't notice a big difference in our Slip settings on the day and GT5P's.

All the best
Maz
 
all they need to do is decrease the current draft model by 80-85% and then its done. as far as it kicking in too soon, the higher the speeds the bigger the hole you punch through the air. thats why when race series qualify, they either string out the cars or make them do single car runs because at high speeds even if you can just see the other car, it is helping you a bit.
 
Earth
The question is, would it be safe for PD to let the cars race at Daytona unrestricted when they are so low tech and handle so bad?
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You mean in a video game? :lol:

I think they should enforce the restrictor plate rule if its a NASCAR event (gt mode) and let it be an option in multiplayer and online.
 

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