Sneak peak of the worlds first "home use" full Porsche chassis simulator

  • Thread starter Mayaman
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I'll try and answer best I can even though your question is loaded and insinuates I'm a shill of some sort. Saying you mean it as a true question and not a dig is always a red flag, just ask a question *shrug*

I'm always open to other options and in fact I've tried several seat mover rigs, including one with advanced tactile and a fan system that increased the fan speed as the car sped up. So I have extensive time in other simulators. I've also spent a ton of money trying different things to increase immersion. From triple screens, to curved screen with multiple projectors, and several transducers with amps, GS4 seats, thousands of dollars of pretty much every piece of equipment out there, all in the quest to be "Open and fair" and to give myself the chance to get what I want.


Now that being said, I tried in that video to explain why I prefer Dbox, not that anyone else should. I tried answering questions I've received over the years. I even brought in a completely objective person who has never tried Dbox in order to get his opinions, don't know how much more unbiased you can get. All of Seth's opinions were from his own accord, not mine.

The Dbox software interface is super simple. Engine, road surface, Transmission for tactile. Forward to rear, up and down, and side to side for motion. It uses these simple parameters along with the software to create some amazing effects. It follows the KISS methodology *Keep It Simple Stupid* Sounds like it would be underwhelming, but it isn't, its amazing. The engine effect is directional depending on where the engine is.

As too why other manufacturers include transducers that is simple. Its an option. When you buy a Twin Turbo 911, it already has enough power. Yet they offer the X51 package and create the Twin Turbo S. Saying that rig manufacturers add transducers to their rigs with Dbox because the Dbox isn't enough is nowhere near accurate. Its just another option. If you choose to believe that or not is up to you. Its been talked about for the last 4 years ad nauseum. Me thinks instead of asking me, you should seek out a Dbox that is setup correctly with a nice visual system, sound and try it out. You might like it.

I hope to make more detailed videos, with more detail, focused on the rig and system that I like. The system I've spent a ton of money on, and the system that I know best. This doesn't mean its for everybody and it doesn't mean others have to follow suit.
 
Mayaman
I'll try and answer best I can even though your question is loaded and insinuates I'm a shill of some sort. Saying you mean it as a true question and not a dig is always a red flag, just ask a question *shrug*
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Come on Mayaman, if you cant take me as being genuine when I'm being genuine and see that really some people may just want to learn more, to see some of the menus and try to form a better technical analysis, no agenda, nothing other than gaining more understanding better of how it works.

I just think this question was relevant, no other motion has tactile, yes it really is a bonus I totally agree, yet you keep sidestepping my questions asked about it, go an try it you say, yeah fine point me to a dealer in Northern Ireland or a user willing to let people into their home like you have.

You add additional motion to d-box for increasing the immersion even more but when the mention of querying why additional tactile immersion is used by some manufacturers or in trying to get a straight answer based on your own opinion it seems to be an issue. I really find it a shame you seem to avoid having discussion on this, that is all.

Really, I see no need to go defensive, its simple discussion, you highlight in the video how good Dbox tactile is, their is no arguing, no debate whatsoever, their is no putting down its abilities, their is certainly no-one stating it isn't accurate or powerful enough as you alluded to. Take note however on a technical level so little information can be found out about it, so little on the options, or user control and I don't know but I assume unlike Simvibe all games will support the same features and come with much less hassle to get the most out of it.

Asking if removing engine can enhance the directional effects is not seeking to put it down at all. It seems impossible to get good detailed information on this topic or how many effects are supported or their individual control. Please consider to show more on this in future.

The alternatives have many flaws, I would think common sense would allow sensible discussion and that each will have its own advantages and disadvantages. However when or if you want to share more on it while appreciated is of course your decision but to be fair you have never went into great detail about its workings, shown it's software options or highlighted any cons with it if any.

Once again thanks for your posts and sharing...
 
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Hey Mr Latte, not sure if I can be of much help with my limited knowledge/experience, but I will do my best to at least partially answer some of your questions.

First off, yes, I was a bit green in the video :)

As for the noise, it was pretty noisy overall since the speakers were turned up but most of the mechanical sound I heard didn't seem to come from the d-box itself as much as the hardware attached to the rig. It really thrashes with some strong forces so any small play in hardware mounts will make noise. Over all it was not overly loud though, the other noises of the speakers are already making so much noise. If the speaker sound was turned down it would be easier to really listen to the d-box itself and see what it sounds like on it's own. I did not hear any squeaking/chirping like some rigs I have seen in videos though.

As for the menus, when I first tried this rig the forces were very strong, but the tactile was turned down. When mayaman went into the menu it was a pretty straight forward experience. I was able as a novice to adjust each parameter to where I thought they should be set judging by what I felt in the previous run. I actually didn't have to adjust the settings again, the settings I thought would be right after driving once, then adjusting accordingly ended up feeling good to me. Basically there were sliders for the different directional movements intensity, and sliders for the different tactile intensities. I don't remember exactly how many of each, and there very well may be more settings I am unaware of, but this is what I saw with my short experience.

Mayaman did do a test that went through the range of tactile frequencies. It definitely went really low, like staring out in 3rd gear in a car with a deep exhaust and pinning the throttle and the high end was that buzzy type vibration like that of a four banger at high rpm with a performance exhaust (that is more of an american tuner reference but think fast and furious).

As for how the engine is transmitted, I can 100% confirm that the engine vibration for me was felt in the rear. I was driving a mid engine vehicle after I turned up the vibration and really payed attention to how it feels so that would fall in line with it being dependent on the particular engine configuration in each car. I also felt a clear difference when each wheel was on a rumble strip or something like that.

As for my tactile experience aside from this, not a whole lot. I do use a buttkicker gamer transducer pinned between my set and the panel below my seat and that provides a good amount of engine vibration in the seat itself. The d-box was of course a whole other world though. I am no physicist but I truly believe that because the machine providing the vibration is also the machine that is suspending the rig against gravity, that nothing can provide more direct tactile vibration. Once the weight of the rig is suspended by the machine causing the vibration, and that vibration is applied by moving that rig rapidly against then in favor of gravity at a given frequency, it just comes down to how strong the actuators themselves are. I did not notice any weakness in the d-box personally, in fact I had everything turned to less than 100 in the sliders. It seemed to me that there was power to spare. I also didn't feel any up or down movement when only vibration was being simulated (or during the tactile test). It is such small fast movements required to make the vibrations so vibration is all you feel.

As for tactile negatively effecting the rest of the effects, I did not notice this during my experience, however, I wouldn't have even thought to pay attention since I was just learning what motion was all about. I think that would take some playing around with settings to experience each effect with and without tactile. I can say the even with the tactile up the rig still tossed me around just as well as it did with the tactile turned down. I also didn't feel like the tactile was cutting out in order to transmit roll or pitch.

For me the experience was more than I could have ever asked for. I am pretty picky and I find a lot of things that others like to be really gimicky and more of a distraction. This was not the case with D-box, it was really something awesome that I wasn't able to find any real flaws with during my time in game.

I hope this at least helps a little bit? Feel free to ask any questions you may have for me specifically.
 
seth francis
Yes, that was me :dunce:. Trust me I fully understand my racing lines. As mayaman pointed out, we were having an issue with the hall sensor sticking causing the throttle to spike and get stuck wide open. Also, as this was my first time using any sort of motion, or AC. I literally sat down jumped in a car and track and drove without setting anything up. So it was a combination of things that caused my driving to be horrid. I assure you that I am fully capable of maintaining my lines and putting down solid lap times, but that wasn't the point or concern of this video.

Next time I will take the time to set things up properly for the sim, wheel and car to give an accurate depiction of my driving skills. Not saying I'm anything special when it comes to simulation based racing, but certainly a thousand times better than what is shown in the video.

Thank you so much for your valuable contribution to this thread though, I don't know what I would have done had you not informed me of my inability to drive. Its a wonder I made it home last night!
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My bad! Thanks to the video man.
 
Seth appreciate the information given, thank you.
I am sure he was a pleasant host and great for him to offer you to take part.

For viewers to help form your impressions then it is good to know what your used to regards tactile and what you experienced in this fantastic simulator that Mayaman has not to mention the Porsche based one.

The tactile side of things is a main hobby for me and something I enjoy. I have never seen anyone anywhere do a detailed report on d-box regards its tactile, how it technically works, the control it offers, how it can be tailored or with a non biased view compare it to what can be done with alternatives.

Mayaman has the best screen options with triple seamless projection and VR, not 1, he has possibly two of the best motion systems, not 1, he has mutli-channel audio and also good headphones, not 1 solution. Yet he relies solely on the standard d-box tactile, no modifications, no additions and no trying to take it further. In fact asking about such expansion to it clearly annoys him.

I get it, this may be part of the build he does not want to attempt to modify or even try to improve. Yet from all the technology used this is the only area he seems to settle for "standard" or single solution. So it has to be rather amazing if it full-fills his obviously high levels of desired performance which is obvious in this build. This is again a complement to it and not trying to put it down but from the perspective of seeing how everything else he has goes beyond the norm or single solution it is worth highlighting.

D-Box Tactile On Consoles?
Can it be clarified if the tactile can operate on consoles. "VRX" sims mention game audio from consoles into a d-box to use its tactile. I don't know if it is referring only to the additional tactile they use or if it requires a special version or model of d-box but never heard much about this before. Others may just be PC sim oriented now but I certainly still have interest in console games and to enjoy them the best way possible. This seems like a good example even if the motion is not possible. VRX like Vesaro or others also offer additional tactile, they offered dual units in fact and they used to partner with a high end brand called Crowson but not sure if they still do. They do not however give much in detail or reasons why or what it adds to the immersion.

What Effects Possible?
I queried if they might of been giving users the option to use engine via BK or other tactile and if removing engine from the D-Box made any difference to improved directional effects from wheels/suspension? For instance does the perception degrade with more effects a user wants to use, what effects can they select and are their individual output levels selectable? Like I said to him, their are many unanswered questions that could be highlighted in future videos because this information is not easily available.

This is as good as I found but hardly readable.
If he wanted to expand on it he certainly can in new videos.

dboxSetup.jpg
 
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I only use Dbox tactile because its simple to set up, its literally zero work. I hated setting up amps and transducers and wires and all that nonsense. Why do that when I can get an awesome experience by clicking my mouse? Not being defensive at all, we've been through this before. I've gone over the cons of Dbox before as well, this isn't new. Cost being the biggest one obviously.

1. They are more robust than any other actuator system
2. They are faster than any other actuator system
3. They handle way more weight than any other actuator system
4. They provide tactile unlike any other actuator system
5. Dbox itself doesn't make any noise really, at all. Any noise you hear will be your rig falling apart from the tactile frequencies if you turn it up too high.

There is a reason these things are so expensive, this isn't BS.

Seems pretty simple to me, which again has been talked about a lot on this forum for the last 5 years. Yet the same people keep asking the same questions. Please don't try and paint me as unresponsive. Its nonsense.

If you turn engine tactile down, it doesn't really affect the other affects. The Dbox can do simultaneous tactile effects at the same time.

Again, this is my own opinion and does not reflect the experiences of anyone else. Simplicity. Dbox does the job I need it to do, No figuring out where to mount transducers, or have ugly bass modules hanging off my rig, or amps everywhere, or wires everywhere. The Dbox feels "real" to me, its simple as that. And since I feel it does the job I want, why would I improve on that? The main reason for me spending money is too improve, not just to spend money. I cam completely satisfied with the tactile provided, so I won't be "improving" that.

I don't see why game consoles couldn't work, but I don't see that happening. The game manufacturers would have to open up their closed systems and thats not going to happen.
 
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Thanks you list lots of good points Mayaman.
Really no need to go over most of what you highlight as like you have said you have done in past.

Info regards point number 4 is what has yet to be highlighted in depth.
I cant speak for others, for me personally I still would like to see the screens for menus to get a better idea of what all it offers from the software perspective.

If you want to help then it would be appreciated, I may of asked this 1,2,3,4, or 5 years ago yes but sorry to ask again. The reason is not to pester but simply I cant find videos or screenshot that show all the main software settings and you've never shown much on this in the past.

Could you also confirm the point asked if all games offer all the same features for the tactile effects possible? This is a major disadvantage with Simvibe as different titles have varying support of features.
 
insert coin
If I am not mistaken I saw a GS4 seat on the D-Box system. Do you need a GS4 seat for the 'whole experience' or was it turned off?
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The GS4 was off IC. If it was on the entire experience would hav been even better. This rig was off for a month or so and I was having driver issues so the seat remained off. Next test session with Seth it will be on. :)
 
All titles supported by Dbox have the same features, all of them. Games that are not on the supported list can be requested to Yannick over at Dbox.

As to point number 4, there isn't a lot of detail because the software itself is so simple a monkey with a lobotomy could setup that aspect and have a convincing time in the simulator.

latte, you're over complicating things on an epic scale. To feel the road in Dbox you adjust the "road" setting in tactile. Road mean, EVERYTHING on the road. Bumps, rub strips, pebbles, etc. Its that simple. No need to go to an over complicated amp setup and assign pebble textures to wheels, and transmission clank to just my shifter. That to me is nonsense.

When racing, you have several cues that your brain processes. The force feedback from the wheel. The seat of the pants feeling of tactile vibrations through your seat, wheel, legs, the visual cues from the screen, the audio cues from the surround sound. All this mixes up in a pot and gives you your immersion. Again, I'm not going into detail because there really isn't that much detail settings to mess around with in the Dbox menus. As you can see from your post its super simple. Yet it does an amazing job. No complicated explanation needed as there is none. Set your road, tranny, engine, etc where you like it after trial and error and forget it. It will feel exactly the way you want after that.

You can tune it for each car if you wish, up to you. You can go bonkers, or subtle, up to you.

All the affects work in unision. Again, its why these things are as expensive as they are. They are not toys. These actuators run 15 hours a day in commercial settings for years at times without breaking down. You get what you pay for.

Like I said in the opening, there will be more videos, with more detail. These videos were to give people an idea, from an objective 3rd party. He'll be back to give more of his opinions. I stated that questions can be asked and I'll do my best to answer them. The key word here being "my" best. So far, the only person who seems to be confused is you my friend.

Dbox is the motion system for dummies. It literally can be installed and setup by an absolute moron, and that moron can be racing and having fun with no complicated setup of actuators, tactile at all. Yet it still does more than 99% of the motion systems out there. I haven't decided its my favorite just by being blindly loyal to a company, thats stupid. I put my money where my mouth is.
 
I will put this as clear as I can.

All you needed to do was agree to add a few software options screens or show in a future video.
No drama it simply lets people clearly see the options available as the image I had to find myself isn't that clear nor do we know if that is all the options. No complexed description is needed, the setup screens would been fine.

Really no need to even talk about other options or tactile solutions, yet you keep doing comparisons and when I have mentioned such n this thread its mostly been to d-box favour.

Thank you however for now confirming another bonus that was not highlighted in the video that ALL games offer equal support. I'm happy to be shown the positives of d-box in this thread, that's all I'm asking to see and learn.
 
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Mayaman
Latte, other options were mentioned because you brought it up. C'mon dude.
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No their was and is no debate sir.
I've did nothing wrong, your rig is your rig, we know you clearly go for what you want.

If anything I credit you as much as anyone else on these forums and with respect to previous differences in opinion. What do they matter, you seemingly take questions I raise as always having some ulterior motive dude.

I see nothing out of the ordinary of querying the reasons why companies add additional tactile and ask why you haven't. Sooner or later you will grasp, that finding screenshots, videos to gain simple understanding of all the software options is hard to come by.

Guess what that's why I asked. I thought sharing them would be nice to finally see and others would easily be able to relate to things you may later refer to...
 
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I said more videos to come. And this conversation has been had before not only with you but with countless others. It always turns into a system X vs. system Y. I don't like that. Everyone has whats best for them in their minds eye. No amount of detail given by me will change that. I've been doing this "internet" thing a long time.

Now please, lets just get this thread back on track. Thanks

I think its best to go over Seth's blurb a few responses back and look at the videos again. Listen to Seth when he says "WHOA! YOU CAN FEEL THE TIRES BOUNCING" when he took off in the P1. This reaction is gold because it was completely unexpected and he knew exactly what the car was doing. That is an example of what the Dbox offers.
 
Mr Latte
For viewers to help form your impressions then it is good to know what your used to regards tactile and what you experienced in this fantastic simulator that Mayaman has not to mention the Porsche based one.
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Just to clarify, my current tactile setup is very basic. I only have one buttkicker gamer under my seat. I can put up some pics if it helps get a better ideal of how I have it mounted. I feel this does a nice job of transmitting engine vibration and some rumble strip vibration, but of course there is no directional or full chassis vibration with my setup. Given my basic setup, it is a given that the d-box was going to feel worlds ahead of what I have experienced. However, we weren't really trying to compare mayaman's rig to my rig or rigs I've used in the past so much as to give a view from someone who has not been potentially compromised by past experiences or hardware I personally own and may tend to side with. That's why I tried to give my best explanation of what I experienced without doing too much comparison, since I wouldn't really be a good source of comparison information :(. What I did say regarding comparison was based very little upon what I have felt in the past, but very much upon how I understand the physics at play. This is what I meant when I talked about the fact that the d-box is what the entire rig is resting on, therefore it is the rig itself transmitting the vibrations, not a mass of weight attached to the rig. Of course the strength of the device moving the rig at a given frequency needs to be strong enough to do so. To me the d-box seemed to have power to spare, so I didn't notice any lack luster there. I am no scientist, so I may be way off here, but it seems to me from a fundamentals stand point there can be no more efficient way to transmit vibration than suspending the rig from the machine doing the tactile "work". Like I said, I am not particularly educated in physics, so perhaps there is an advantage to using a device which provides tactile through being attached to the mass being vibrated as opposed to a device which oscillates the mass itself at a given frequency to create vibration. I look at it like the rig itself is the is the mass inside of a standard transducer.

As for the Porsche rig, the screen is not complete so I was not able to try that yet. I will surely give feedback when I do 👍

Mr Latte
The tactile side of things is a main hobby for me and something I enjoy.
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I also love tactile, and I still love my buttkicker as that is what I have and I feel it does its job well enough for me and my budget. I would like to have more for directional vibration but that will be in the future. My only gripe with buttkicker gamer setups are the stock amps, mine is the new one and still constantly cuts out both from clipping and some other issue that requires shaking the amp to regain tactile :banghead:


Overall, my goal was to be both subjective, and as objective as I could be with my limited experience. Because I have limited past experience, I am a much better source of both opinion and fact based information about what I experienced with this particular rig, as opposed to objective info taking into consideration other rigs I have tried in the past. Mayaman told me he wanted me to be honest, and point out any downfalls that I noticed. Perhaps as I have more seat time I can delve deeper into some details as I pick up on them. I must say though I can see why mayaman likes this setup and why it works for him. I really feel like d-box provides very well the effects that I always thought I would like and would actually use.

Hopefully my views and opinions come across as honest and unbiased, because that is really how I meant them to be. I am not experienced enough with anything to have formed a bias yet so I just try to talk about what I experienced. If I had a chance to try a different type of motion rig or another high end tactile setup I would try to be as honest as possible about that too.
 
seth francis
Hopefully my views and opinions come across as honest and unbiased, because that is really how I meant them to be. I am not experienced enough with anything to have formed a bias yet so I just try to talk about what I experienced. If I had a chance to try a different type of motion rig or another high end tactile setup I would try to be as honest as possible about that too.
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Thanks Seth for your openness and detailed response, liking you already. You did good so no worries. I need to bring the tactile discussions to a close so this does not drag into something to bore everyone to death or a row start, it is not the intention at all. I will share in this post some of my own interests with you as you described your passion/enjoyment for it as well.


Personally I am not seeking a Vs of this is better than that, it's been tried before, doesn't work, the who's right, who's wrong is boring and endless. I would rather this thread stays positive and hope we have cleared any perceptions of something else happening here other than guys sharing their passions and interests.

The winner or person who is right, is the person enjoying their rig the most rather than discussing how great it is! If some people think no, a motion seat based system is best and using traction loss, sure let them think that or buy that, really who cares. What matters is if what they have gives them enjoyment.

Some of us get caught up in our own ideals and me included theirs no pointing fingers here. My own experience and understanding would place me to believe D-Box does many things right regards tactile with several advantages. It will impress very much the vast majority of people that use it because of what and how good it is at conveying the multi dimensional effects and even positional engine support. That combined with the motion and all easily controlled. Yes indeed a superb system to envy owning.

One could suggest from an entertainment immersion perspective it is nigh on perfect. However it also will have short comings too in some ways to some other solutions. Their is no outright best I believe. The max potential of any 1 compared to say the max potential perhaps possible is something else. Just like Mayaman sought more with the motion, the screens and had to innovate, research etc then we can assume the same is possible in advancing the tactile immersion too even if it is not in his own interest or desire to do such. He clearly has stated such so that's good, I and others can understand. So its not an issue for me if its not an issue for him but as the cockpit is about "immerson" then this is what my discussion is about.

I have always been curious about D-Box myself but if anything more on the tactile side rather than the motion. I know the motion can be great but if I owned it more than likely it would be on a low setting as I tend to personally get fatigued by it after the initial excitement. With VR included damn yes that could be crazy fun.

Maybe I just prefer to be stirred and tickled with tactile more than moved but only expressing personal pref here. Others might differ of course. I love what Mayman is doing by pushing the boundaries and not only him these forums have seen several others over the years do some great creative work. I one day would like to do that too and achieve something but more from the audio and tactile immersion perspective than the motion. It comes possibly from my past hobby from many years ago of home cinema, not sure.

However while I have still lots to learn and discover their is more to tactile immersion than just the frequencies generated, just as important is the how and where they are generated and how they are delivered to the target or desired location/position. Also what is very relevant is how they make contact to the best regions of the body to enhance the immersion felt.

If I were to build a dream rig to how I wanted it would relate to my interests just like yours would for you etc.
I would likely utilise D-Box too as it can also easily be applied to a platform. However my own journey would incorporate it also with the unique Simvibe dual tactile and 4 way sub-woofer configuration. This I have been researching on/off for more than 2 years. My immersion would be more focused on combining hi quality audio with increased tactile immersion over and above what any single solution produces to form something unique. So it is here my interest in D-Box is to discover more about it and from a hobbyist perspective if or how such could be incorporated into one specially tailored system. This is my reason for seeking more detail on what it provides. It's not about telling someone this is what you should do, if the other party is not interested that's fine, but it's nice sometimes to share or learn from each other such aspects that might enable someone else if they want to one day pursue such.

Have fun on your next visit, curious to what games might become your favourite or most enjoyable.
 
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seth francis
My only gripe with buttkicker gamer setups are the stock amps, mine is the new one and still constantly cuts out both from clipping and some other issue that requires shaking the amp to regain tactile
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Its one of the low pass filter buttons causing the issue. Once you figure out which one it is you only need to bump the button and all will be right again. Mine has the same issue, no cutting out from clipping though just the button issue.
 
Yes, this is pretty much what I've setup in my personal space. Pisses me off sometimes that because of my health I haven't been able to complete this project over 2 years ago. I'll keep persevering and hopefully I can create a system to have people be able to have something like this.

I hope to have something special to show on Saturday. Everything is complete, just tuning software now. Took preliminary laps and its turning out well. More to come hopefully Saturday.

seems like they are using scn5 actuators. You can tell from their distinctive whistling sound.
 
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She Lives..........

20160421_081441_zps3nqkgveb.jpg




Hopefully video to come this weekend if I can get my ultra wide lens by then. But it is complete!

POV video, outside video, and driving videos and commentary by Seth and I to come.

This is my prototype, but I do plan to offer these for sale at some point. More to come, stay tuned.
 
Yeah, I have a full blown Dbox VR rig as well and this smokes it easily. The scuba mask limited FOV bugs me for sim racing. I'm going to use my CV1 for flight games and FPS games on the VR treadmill.

I'm working on 3D this weekend. Just have to probably make adjustments to the ultra black screen. I feel it may be to dark for 3D without substantial brightness loss. But to be honest, I don't even notice its not 3D, it looks 3D as the screen wraps completely around the cockpit, so not a deal breaker.

Also, seems I can't get a happy medium in cameras. My phone camera is too narrow of a FOV and the gopro is just to damn wide and creates this weird fish eye effect. The go pro footage shouldn't look that fish eyed. Don't know how to remedy that.
 
Great to see you finally getting there with this project and that means that your health issues are behind you, I hope !
Just one thing, I find the inside car is too much dark compared to real life!
 

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