So frustrating

[ROCKET JOE]

I am in the process of uploading my last race. It was at Bathurst during the manufacturing championship. I’m driving for Ferrari and qualified in 3rd place. I ended up in 2nd place due to the corvette losing control in front of me, but the replay is focused on a NSX! Pay close attention to not only his driving but how he realizes he’s faster with TC on and his lap time keeps increasing although he consistently crashes! He is using a pad and this is exactly what I was talking about. It’s clear evidence that something is seriously wrong here. I made one mistake and lost control for a hot second. Other than that I was clean all the way through. Yet this NSX caught me some how and almost took second place.

The advantage given to pad users is extremely exaggerated. If you call a game a sim then what he is doing should not make him faster by any means, yet he is! The first place winner was also using a pad driving in a similar manner but with out crashing. My average lap time in this race was 2:11.800 so I’m lost how I couldn’t catch the first place car? He was driving a WRX with a similar lap time as me. Yet he finished way ahead of me!

Something needs to be patched. Especially racing in a championship for real world prizes !

Sigh ! Ok, I've watched the new video. First of all I'd like to state that no one will be able to judge anything correctly
without having driven this car on this track. I haven't, ok ?
I can't see anything wrong, in the car's behaviour at least ( some overtakes are a no go but that's not the point here ).
The driver knows how to tackle Mt. Panorama, he struggles with a typical problem a lot of DS users ( me too ) have atm
which is throttle control and keeping the car settled, that's why his rear steps out sometimes and he has to recover.
His laptimes are 'in the possible range' easily, even without assists I guess. That's it.

Like you and so many others I'm thinking about driving assists and their benefit. I do little tests from time to time,
read here on the forums etc. to get a feel and I'd agree with you that driving gets noticably easier and therefore,
depending on car and track, quicker ... RIGHT NOW !!! If they prove in the long run to actually be quicker ( to the
amount of SRF in GT6 e.g. ), we talk again.

Still ... I prefer not using them and will go on practicing instead 'til the moment I master my DS4 inputs ( to the max
within my talent ). To me it's a matter of pride to race without being aided by a computer and I'd rather place worse
in a race than getting pampered.

 

[kjeldsen]

Spring Cleaning

 

[zzz_pt]

There are a ton of pad users that are in the top 5 in the world. Especially in Project Cars 2 where the physics are harder. So yes pad users can absolutely be faster than a fast wheel user.

I didn't say there weren't fast pad users. What I said is that most of fast drivers are wheel users and the majority of aliens are on wheels, despite pad users being the majority.

I'll quote it again:

I'm not saying there are not fast pad users. I'm saying they're so few that it's almost irrelevant when discussing which is best to get fastest times - wheel or pad. Because despite the low % of wheel users compared to the 100% of players who have a controller on the PS4, the leaderboards are overwhelmingly wheel users.

Do you have data there for the rankings on PC2 (would be cool to see the data from the PC since it's where most people play PC2 and where most of the fastest drivers are)? I'm curious to see how many times the top1 time was set with a pad. I know @Tidgney often is the fastest and he's on a T300.

 

[Hasassin_X]

Nope, but watching that video, it looks like DHoll24 tries to give you a Slow Down Punishment, most likely because he has one himself*.. just a the finish line...?

* he hits you at least 3 times on the top of the mountain, and again when he forces his way past you after the fast right hander..

He actually had only a 9 second time penalty believe it or not

 

[JulesDennis]

Do you have data there for the rankings on PC2 (would be cool to see the data from the PC since it's where most people play PC2 and where most of the fastest drivers are)? I'm curious to see how many times the top1 time was set with a pad. I know @Tidgney often is the fastest and he's on a T300.

http://cars2-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1740968730&vehicle=0

Just opened that page with default settings.
The top 2 guys on PC around Le Mans are actually...pad users (and thats on PC).3 out of the top 10 are using pads.

 

[Hasassin_X]

I didn't say there weren't fast pad users. What I said is that most of fast drivers are wheel users and the majority of aliens are on wheels, despite pad users being the majority.

I'll quote it again:


Do you have data there for the rankings on PC2 (would be cool to see the data from the PC since it's where most people play PC2 and where most of the fastest drivers are)? I'm curious to see how many times the top1 time was set with a pad. I know @Tidgney often is the fastest and he's on a T300.

Actually you probably won’t see many top 1 in the game using a pad. What I stated was at least top 5. The statement you made before stated that there are very few pad users compared to wheel users and that’s just not correct. Given how expensive wheels are lately most people just use a pad. A wheel is a big investment so most don’t want to go that far if they can play with a pad. Also on PC yes a lot of people play but also on console. There are people that have beaten PC players times using a pad and also people who use a pad on PC. You also have to remember PC is a different animal there are settings for the controller which we will never have in GT.

http://cars2-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1740968730&vehicle=0

Just opened that page with default settings.
The top 2 guys on PC around Le Mans are actually...pad users (and thats on PC).3 out of the top 10 are using pads.

That’s what I was saying and that’s on Project cars which is harder than GT SPORT! So imagine how many people on GT are actually using wheels and holding the top times in the world ?

 

[JulesDennis]

That’s what I was saying and that’s on Project cars which is harder than GT SPORT! So imagine how many people on GT are actually using wheels and holding the top times in the world ?

I would not call it harder,maybe more "hardcore" sim and for sure "different".
Still GTS (or Pcars or AC) is the same game (or sim) for everyone -same physics,same rules you get the point-.
Either way I could not know how many wheel users are at the top TT times in GTS because there is no way for anyone to access that data.
But the link I posted,is the TT from Pcars 2 on Pc.There are pad users that are as fast (if not faster) than wheel users -and that was the point I was trying to make-.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... Either way I could not know how many wheel users are at the top TT times in GTS because there is no way for anyone to access that data.

Would actually be great if we could + finally get replays from the top 10 .

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Still ... I prefer not using them and will go on practicing instead 'til the moment I master my DS4 inputs ( to the max
within my talent ). To me it's a matter of pride to race without being aided by a computer and I'd rather place worse
in a race than getting pampered.

I totally respect that perspective and it's usually the one I used to have when I would play offline, since I didn't compete

but now, I'd much rather just have the car behave in a predictable fashion that fits my driving style. more specially, for most cars, 2nd gear at 50% coming out of the apex shouldn't spin me out. after playing with the RUF cars for years I've sort of learned that that is about the limit of my control. if I have to navigate between 25% to 50% in that narrow 25% window (that represents like 2mm of travel on the trigger) then it's going to be a crap shoot.

I've had some amazing Yellowbird laps where the joy was literally about balancing in that narrow bandwidth and constantly putting down power through the tires but losing control of the car was still par for the course. it heightened the joy and the agony for offline play but for competitive online play that playing style would just make me a menace on the track.

 

[zzz_pt]

http://cars2-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1740968730&vehicle=0

Just opened that page with default settings.
The top 2 guys on PC around Le Mans are actually...pad users (and thats on PC).3 out of the top 10 are using pads.

Well you just proved my point. The large majority of track records in there (and I don't know the website so I have no idea how up to date it is, considering it has only a few times on some of the tracks and we can't see the world record for different car categories) were made with a wheel and the largest majority of top 10/top100 are from people using wheels.

Again, just as I've said. You'll find the occasional alien with a pad, but faster times are more often than not set with wheels and pedals.

Actually you probably won’t see many top 1 in the game using a pad. What I stated was at least top 5. The statement you made before stated that there are very few pad users compared to wheel users and that’s just not correct. Given how expensive wheels are lately most people just use a pad. A wheel is a big investment so most don’t want to go that far if they can play with a pad. Also on PC yes a lot of people play but also on console. There are people that have beaten PC players times using a pad and also people who use a pad on PC. You also have to remember PC is a different animal there are settings for the controller which we will never have in GT.

And there are very few pad users compared to wheel users on the leaderboards, considering the proportion of people who do have wheels and those who have pads (on consoles everyone has a pad). If it was just as easy and frequent to be fast with a pad, why wouldn't you see more people setting world records and featuring on the top10 of community events (PS4 - PC2) or GTAcademy (for several editions we could see who was using a wheel and a controller and if you could find 10 pad users on the top 100 that's being optimistic)? I was the fastest pad user in my country and managed to get in the top 20-25 every edition. Was on the top 250 globally (including wheel users).

I never said you can't be fast with a pad. That's a straw man. What I've said over and over is that, most of the fastest drivers are using wheels despite the majority of people having pads. Having a wheel seems to be the best way for anyone to be faster (for me it was even if I wasn't slow to begin with on a pad). Never said you can't find a pad alien. You can. But statistically speaking, they are so few that defending anyone can be just as fast with a pad as with a wheel because there are these 2 or 3 pad aliens, doesn't make sense in my opinion.

I just went to PC2 to grab a few screenshots from the first community events (seems like the latest ones don't have a lot of participants... I haven't play the game in a month so I can imagine a lot of people dropped it too).

PS4:

Community events (TRL_MANURODRY and Unity_Adam are oftrn on GTS's leaderboadrs as well):

Now, if you want to continue strawmaning me and arguing I'm defending that there are not Pad aliens, be my guest. But everything I said above is consistent with my first posts on the topic and with the data.

The likelihood to see a world record set by a pad user in any game or platform is lower.

Everyone can be fast with a pad. But we're talking about the aliens or the very fast people. And to get there, there's no doubt that a set of wheel and pedals will most likely be the better option.

And we're not even talking about proper racing on the track. Just talking about hot lapping alone. Because if you then talk about wheel to wheel racing and input control, there's an even lower chance to find a proper pad user who can race as fast and clean on a field of fast cars.

For casual online racing, sure, pad users can be fast. Never said they couldn't.

 

[JulesDennis]

Well you just proved my point. The large majority of track records in there (and I don't know the website so I have no idea how up to date it is, considering it has only a few times on some of the tracks and we can't see the world record for different car categories) were made with a wheel and the largest majority of top 10/top100 are from people using wheels.

That link is pretty much the game TT data in Pcars 2.They had/have a similar page for Pcar 1.
BTW that is the PC platform (as you can see it in the game on PC).
And my only point was that people can be as fast using a pad compared to people that use a wheen.Nothing more,nothing less.

 

[zzz_pt]

That link is pretty much the game TT data in Pcars 2.They had/have a similar page for Pcar 1.
BTW that is the PC platform (as you can see it in the game on PC).
And my only point was that people can be as fast using a pad compared to people that use a wheen.Nothing more,nothing less.

I know that's from the PC. Now, go through the Formula X (way more competitive than the one you posted) leaderboards for any of the tracks and see how many gamepad users you find on the top 10 for the most popular tracks.

Le Mans: 0
Monza: 0
Algarve: 1 out of 10 on top 8
Barthurst: 0
Azure Circuit: 0
Brands Hatch GP: 1 out of 10 on top5
Brno: 1 out of 10 in top 8
Barcelona: 1 out of 10 in top 4
Spa: 0
CotA: 1 out of 10 on top 10
Fuji: 1 out of 10 on top 6
Hockenheim: 0
Laguna Seca: 0
Nurb GP: 2 out of 10 on top 6 and 7
Nurb Nordschleife: 0
Road America: 0
Silverstone GP: 2 out of 10 on top2 and 8
Sonoma GP: 0
Texas motor speedway: 0
Willow Springs: 2 out of 10 on top 7 and 10
Zolder: 0

Having said that, I don't get why you're responding as if I'd said something different.

There are PAD users that are "aliens" (at least hotlapping).In other titles too btw.

No doubt. But how many out of a 1000 are pad users? I think they would be even faster on a wheel.

Why should they?
They are "masters" using the pad.They could propably learn to be as fast but there is a chance they could not.

The number of fast pad users is so low compared to the amount of fast people who use wheels that it's almost irrelevant, given that the largest majority (if not all) of people have access to a pad by default and they're not the bulk of the learderboards. On the contrary, despite the number of wheel users being way lower than pad users, often you find 100% wheel users on the top of the leaderboards.

I was a pad user until 3 months ago and was the fastest in my country and one of the fastest in europe. But it was simply impossible (for me and for everyone else it seems, since the top times were always made with a wheel) to catch the fastest of the fastest.

On my first post I've said that IMO there's no say a PAD user can be as fast as a wheel user. I didn't mention hot lapping. I was talking about speed in general. You brought up the hot lapping.

Never said pad aliens didn't exist (I even mentioned a japanese guy from past GTs). But they are so few that giving other people the impression they can be like those guys when it's so much common and "easier" to be fast with a wheel is kinda misleading.

 

[JulesDennis]

Never said pad aliens didn't exist (I even mentioned a japanese guy from past GTs).

My point also then,so we agree.

But they are so few that giving other people the impression they can be like those guys when it's so much common and "easier" to be fast with a wheel is kinda misleading.

I never said that its easier to use a pad if you want to go faster.
In fact no matter pad or wheel,not most people can be "aliens"..Thats why we call them aliens.
With that said is misleading too to make people think that they are going to get really fast if they will use a wheel instead of a pad,dont you think?

 

[zzz_pt]

My point also then,so we agree.

I never said that its easier to use a pad if you want to go faster.
In fact no matter pad or wheel,not most people can be "aliens"..Thats why we call them aliens.
With that said is misleading too to make people think that they are going to get really fast if they will use a wheel instead of a pad,dont you think?

Yes. That's why I've said it's easier to be faster with a wheel and not that it's easy for everyone to be an alien with a wheel. Anyone, from the slowest guy to the average to the one who's 2 seconds off the top times, imo, can be a bit faster on a wheel.

 

[DGXR]

Funny you mention this, because I just tried using counter steering aid on high and yea I don’t lose control hitting the grass! And I’m taking turns faster using the wheel how is this possible ? It should slow you down instead it’s making people faster especially playing with the game pad that’s not right at all .

It's important to recognize that wheels and the DS4 both have their positives and negatives:
The pad allows very quick responses (positive) but less precise inputs than the wheel (negative).
Wheels don't allow such a quick response (negative) but allow very precise inputs (positive).
Which one gives a faster lap time? Hard to say. Probably depends on the car, car settings, track, competitors, etc.
I guess you are taking turns faster with the wheel because you have more precision, which would be a benefit in the turns.
Not sure why you say driving with the wheel should slow you down.

Personally, as much as I have loved all the Gran Turismo games, I am still a casual gamer and I don't invest in all the deluxe peripherals (gaming chair, wheel, etc). But my home theater 55-inch HD and stereo system really kicks I am pretty good driving with the DS4 although I must admit it's taking some time to adjust to the physics in GTSport, and the different feel of the game overall (menus, settings, other options and features).

 

[zzz_pt]

@DGXR you ignored the throttle and braking input which is way better on a wheel and pedals set. And that is at least as important as the steering input during braking, cornering and accelerating.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

@DGXR you ignored the throttle and braking input which is way better on a wheel and pedals set. And that is at least as important as the steering input during braking, cornering and accelerating.

I'd imagine you can feather both like butter

 

[DGXR]

@DGXR you ignored the throttle and braking input which is way better on a wheel and pedals set. And that is at least as important as the steering input during braking, cornering and accelerating.

When I said inputs, I meant all inputs.
I can modulate the throttle and brake pretty well on a DS4 but that's come with lots of practice. I'm sure it would be far better with a wheel setup.

 

[Mr616]

As promised here is the video of my race tonight !

Just a word of warning. Watching anybodies driver footage from target car select in replay can look very dodgy indeed. I'm super smooth but watch it back from my friends perspective and it's a different story. Jerky steering, weird gear changes etc. Add to this nultiple players with different pings and it will NOT look as smooth as your own footage.

Stop being concerned about others and drive your own race.

 

[phil_75]

While on replays, the only smooth driving you'll see if your own. I think the replay only saves a limited set of input data for all the other cars, making them look twitchy when they're not. If you watch the same replay but saved by that particular player (on the green Porsche) you'll see it as it is, smoother. On the other hand, your car on his replay won't look as smooth, but probably a bit twitchy too.

This is what I've noticed watching my own car on other people's replays and comparing it to my own replay.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one noticing it.

Having said that, a pad user will probably intensify this effect.

This.
All cars except yours will appear very jerky, its been like this since GT5.
On his replay you will appear jerky and he will be smooth.

 

[Conquerer]

It's hard to watch that video with the green Porsche driver constantly bumping you. I mean, it's one thing to be quick and hounding a lead car, but to bump them every 5-10 seconds in the process is a bit much. He has skill but I admire drivers more when they race smartly and pick their moments to go for passes. This includes braking a bit early to avoid a small bump with the lead car when you can't realistically pass. It's really your duty as the driver behind to avoid any minor collisions but, while having one or two is usually hard to avoid, constantly hitting the car in front over and over just shows too much aggression and is not proper. It made no difference for his result and he was only able to get by when he finally had a fair passing chance on the final straight.

 

[kjeldsen]

Spring Cleaning

 

[Hasassin_X]

Just a word of warning. Watching anybodies driver footage from target car select in replay can look very dodgy indeed. I'm super smooth but watch it back from my friends perspective and it's a different story. Jerky steering, weird gear changes etc. Add to this nultiple players with different pings and it will NOT look as smooth as your own footage.

Stop being concerned about others and drive your own race.

I’m concerned about my own driving but when in 2nd place and a driver like this catches me there’s a problem ! So yea it’s not the replay it’s the driver thanks !

 

[Ian Fairbanks]

LAG!!!

The game will try and smooth the motion between known states, but where the client goes quiet (lag) the game will predict where the car should be, the worse the lag, the worse the snap-back to the "real" position (the twitch). These "snaps" don't follow the same physics rules you do, but on the the twitchy clients PS4, he'll be driving smooth too, and you might be the twitchy one for all we know. Thats my take on it anyway. Better the connections (all round) smoother the other racers are.

And I was racing one of the fastest guys in the FIA stuff, and he had a wheel, and I'm pretty quick, 33rd for Alfa, not super quick, but quick enough, and he was just leaving me for dead. Good racer with a wheel is miles better than good racer with a pad imo. (my excuse anyway )

Î wonder how many “dirty racers” threads we have that stem from this? Everyone in the race is doing good, then this happens and we all blame each other for bad driving.

 

[JulesDennis]

Î wonder how many “dirty racers” threads we have that stem from this? Everyone in the race is doing good, then this happens and we all blame each other for bad driving.

For sure you can understand the difference between a laggy player and a dirty one.And with dedicaded servers,lag should cause minimal problems either way.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... to the one who's 2 seconds off the top times, imo, can be a bit faster on a wheel.

Yeehah, that's me ! No worries guys, just a little joke in between ...

 

[Mr616]

I’m concerned about my own driving but when in 2nd place and a driver like this catches me there’s a problem ! So yea it’s not the replay it’s the driver thanks !

You THINK there's a problem. The only way you will KNOW is to watch that drivers upload of their replay of the race, otherwise you're just tormenting yourself.

 

[TenderLoins]

You THINK there's a problem. The only way you will KNOW is to watch that drivers upload of their replay of the race, otherwise you're just tormenting yourself.

I don’t know. I’ve watched a lot of my replays and even when watching another racers car it never looks like the OP’s video. A little twitchy, yes. But there looks like something else was going on there. Kind of reminded me of the old (think 1980’s) racing games.

 

[CastrolNSXJGTCJ]

A different thought on all this.

I believe what you are seeing is a symptom of how the replay is saved regarding opponents in your race. I have seen this behavior in the NPCs back in the PS2 days of GT3 where the opponent cars in replays are very awkward.

I think in order to keep a trim replay file size, the replays are stored as commands, rather than actual frames of video. As such, the player receives a high resolution capture of their commands, and the NPCs get enough to appear OK when not focused on. I imagine it it also tracks "X, Y and Z" positions and compiles it all together to create what looks like cars racing. So a replay essentially is just the game carrying out your logged inputs. This is all just speculation though.

I played with the D-pad a bit in those days too and never got supernatural movements out of the car, street or race model.

 

[Deadheadbill]

Looked like a pad with T

I think I’m as fast as I’ going to be with a pad. Currently fluctuating between DR B/C. Still usually 3-4 second off of the lap records.

The only aid is in use traction control because, like someone else said, the range on the trigger for throttle is so smal an touchy you just can’t get good speed out of corners. Steering is a little better but I know I’ll be faster with a wheel.

Even though the wife will no doubt make fun, I’m going to grab one on sale Black Friday.

Haha, back when I got mine I didn't even tell the wife. She came home from work and it was setup in front of the tv. She took one look, didn't say a word and went into the bedroom to get changed like she always does.