So I ask, why get an SUV?

[Famine]

I have to agree with my american cousins. The only people that rate jaguars are the british, and just as in football it will never reach expectations.

Try one.

 

[YSSMAN]

Yeah, too bad about the England v Portugal game. I was pulling for England the entire time, and those penalty kicks just kill me.

So after ya'all are out, all that I have left is Germany (being that the Netherlands is out as well).

 

[Poverty]

Try one.

Ok I shall reword. The last time a jaguar has beaten its competition was back in oh say 1966, just like the England football team. Were not bad, just never good enough.

 

[Onikaze]

Jag's have history, and class, and style.

Unfortunately, that doesn't always make it a good car, but they're nice to have.

 

[Dave A]

Jaguars are very good cars, the problem is the same as all British built cars being sold overseas, the pice, because the costs of cars in general is very high over here ,that translates into the price of the cars overseas as it does here. The companies have still spent the same ammount building that car as ones kept in the UK, so they have the same ammount of cost per unit to make back from manufacture but they have the cost of shpping and importing to add onto that as well, which equals higher costs, and in America for example where cars are relatively cheap, it means they often get priced out of the market too much to take off.

 

[YSSMAN]

Maybe if the "X" was followed by a "J" or a "K8" then it might be worth buying...

 

[Poverty]

Its hard to place jaguar. Theyre a bit like saab, trying to compete with the germans but its kinda like a level below, but above the likes of volvo VW etc.

As for building cars I belive Germany the most expensive country to do so in Europe, if not the world.

 

[Dave A]

I think Russia is the least cost effective place to build cars in the world, well actually it'll be somewhere like Antarctica, but of the places cars have been/are built I have Russia ticking in my head. Regardless, the UK is not cheap for taxes and labour, it's very damn expensive compared to the US, so thats why cars built in the UK cost more than they're worth in the US.

 

[Famine]

Ok I shall reword. The last time a jaguar has beaten its competition was back in oh say 1966, just like the England football team. Were not bad, just never good enough.

Or in 2003.

Or, in the case of the England football team, 1997.

 

[Dave A]

Jaguar do well every year, they are good cars.

 

[Poverty]

Or in 2003.

Or, in the case of the England football team, 1997.

jaguar 4th and 25th, nevermind that the JD powersurveys is a bunch of tosh.

As for the football its not on a world stage so it doesnt count.

 

[Dave A]

Doesn't it, why, because YOU said so. It's competitive so it counts.

And no, the JD power survey, the one done over here at least isn't a load of tosh, the top cars always deserve it, it's at times better than a car review, because it's people who've actually owned the cars that are giving thier input on what the cars like to own.

 

[Carl.]

It's a combination of both. I slid into a pole, you know. In my defense, though, it was 12am and I was the first car along the road after it had an inch of snow.

Are you saying you'd have avoided that pole, let's say, with a 4x4 Explorer on summer/all season tires? You're kidding, right? You would have:

1. Hit the pole harder
2. Had a much higher probability of flipping over before hitting it.
3. Damaged your Explorer even more than what you did to your 850 (your car is a basically a tank on four wheel - but that one's irrelevant to the discussion)

EVEN A SUBARU WILL HANDLE LIKE CRAP ON SNOW WITHOUT WINTER TIRES. Don't bother with drivetrain issues or driving techniques if you didn't put winter tires on your car in the first place. Once you've done that, go to a Walmart parking lot covered with snow and have fun learning how to recover from spins/slides. Problem solved.

By the way it's an 850 Turbo and trust me that matters because 222 horsepower feels a lot different on the snow than 168.

Yep, I remember. I basically own the same car, with a few more horses and an updated interior. The only trouble I've ever had that was caused by the extra power on snow is wheelspin from a standstill, and that's about it (it's a 98 and the low speed "TCS" is horrible).

 

[Onikaze]

Ah the internetz.

Where a rant about the uselessness of SUV's can turn into a pleasant conversation about Jaguars and British Football.

So, where were we?

 

[Poverty]

Doesn't it, why, because YOU said so. It's competitive so it counts.

And no, the JD power survey, the one done over here at least isn't a load of tosh, the top cars always deserve it, it's at times better than a car review, because it's people who've actually owned the cars that are giving thier input on what the cars like to own.

they played against 3 teams. That doenst prove that they were the best in the world at all so it doesnt count for the argument.

As for JD power results its so much BS, to rate a manufacturer on the whole. I will admit that sometimes the cars that got number one spot deserved it but as a whole its BS in that the way the results are presented it doesnt show the full picture. Ive been wanting to make a thread about it actually.

 

[Dave A]

No, but neither does having a legitimate goal being dissalowed against Portugal resulting in Portugal winning constitute Portugal as a better team (Euro 96) but the bottom line is you have to base things on something, you have set rules on what you base them on and there you have it. JD Power doesn't rate the manufacturer on the whole, it rates each car individually, and then they do a seperate stat for which manufacturers came out best overall. And just what is the full picture, that you know what a Jag X-Type is like to live with and to pay for better than an Jag X-Type owner and so on for every car rated.

 

[Onikaze]

Which is moot, as I've never seen an X-type Wagon, but even my girlfriend, who didn't know better, mentioned something about it reminding her of a pretty Ford Taurus.

So, SUV's.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah, err SUV's, theres too many of them.

 

[Poverty]

JD Power doesn't rate the manufacturer on the whole, it rates each car individually, and then they do a seperate stat for which manufacturers came out best overall. And just what is the full picture, that you know what a Jag X-Type is like to live with and to pay for better than an Jag X-Type owner and so on for every car rated.

Which is what I mean.

As for the x-type one owners word on how his x-type is to live with day to day means diddly squat.

Most of the time the person who brought the car thinks what theyre brought is the best thing since slice bread, and it could very well be good, but not as good as several other cars in its class.

Also some owners end up with lemons, you wouldnt take theyre word on model being ****e, you would require several people to say so.

 

[Famine]

As for the x-type one owners word on how his x-type is to live with day to day means diddly squat.

Why? Who is better to say what it's like to live with?

Most of the time the person who brought the car thinks what theyre brought is the best thing since slice bread, and it could very well be good, but not as good as several other cars in its class.

Also some owners end up with lemons, you wouldnt take theyre word on model being ****e, you would require several people to say so.

And JD Power rates the ratio of bread to lemons. Or something. If more Subabushi S20GT-R Turbo owners think it's a good car to own than those who think it's bad, it gets a high rating. If more FIAlfa Lancitrengeot Free30 owners think it's a bad car to own than those who think it's good, it gets a low rating. That's "several people", isn't it?

So, the OLD Jaguar XJ rated as 4th best car overall, and best large executive luxury car, in 2004, beating the competition. England beating the then-World Champions, the World Champions in waiting and... err... Italy in a four-way tournament (though they actually lost to Brazil).

Case. Rest.

 

[Dave A]

Which is why there's hundereds of owners views taken into account for each car to get a balanced view for each car in the list. Can you honestly tell me that there is a better way to find out how good a car is than asking people who live with the car? And no, if eveyone said there car was great, it was the best ect, there would be no badly rated cars, there's plenty.

 

[Poverty]

lets make a JD power thread and let this one get back to SUV's. It will require someone to make the JD thread though as Im in a lazy mood, and it will require some stirring comments to get me going on why its tosh.

 

[Onikaze]

Brilliant idea old chap.

Cup O' Tea?

So, I'm having trouble finding if the 525XiT actually got made or not, I've found sites mentioning it, but have yet to find an actual picture with 525Xi on the back of a Wagon.

 

[Slicks]

I agree completely. However AWD does help and again, I hate explaining a need for AWD to car enthusiasts because they just complain BITTERLY about how they don't need it. The truth of the matter is, the majority of SUV buyers DO need it, because the majority of SUV buyers are women who, like me, can't handle the snow. I can barely handle the snow with AWD cars.

Okay, so you're admitting that the problem lies with YOU. Is it not just a wee bit cheaper (Read: One hell of an assload cheaper) to go to a driving school, driving lessons, or a big, snowy, open parking lot than go out and buy an SUV?
Get it? Learn to drive, and you won't need an SUV!!!!!. Granted, there will still be the small faction of people who actually do go bounding through three feet of snow on a backroad, and that by all means does warrant a 4X4. But, the last I checked, pickups are just as good, if not better, at off-roading than SUV's are.

I will now teach you the term PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE

Audi A4: the base A4 wagon w/AWD is $32500. PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE
Audi A6: the base A6 wagon w/AWD is $46900. PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE
Mercedes C-class: the wagon version was cancelled three years ago. However, when it existed, it was PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE, starting north of $34000 in 2003
Mercedes E-class: the base E-class wagon w/AWD starts at $54800. PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE. In fact, for the price of an E350W4, I could get an ML500 and $6k in options. The V8 ML for $6k less than a V6 E-class. Hmm...
Volvo V70: the base V70 wagon w/AWD (XC70) is $35700. PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE
Mazdas: the Protege5 and 3 wagon are jokes. Be serious. In the U.S., the 6 doesn't offer AWD, sadly
Dodge Magnum: one of three that aren't PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE and with its own problems, as mentioned.

Um.... Right.
So, all three of the Mazda wagons are affordable. The Magnum is affordable (Come on, if you're actually hauling seven people then you're going to be using a full-size SUV. That is, coincidentally, PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE. Volkswagen has the Jetta, Golf, and Passat, all of which are suitable for snowy weather. The Ford Focus comes in Wagon form.
Now, you can't be serious about needing AWD in the snow. Does it help? Yes, by all means. But I lived in snowy areas for thirteen years (You know... part of that whole 'Canadian Winter' thing) and guess what? You see alot of 2WD vehicles.
I've got relatives who live in the interior of BC (Lots of snow), and they don't have SUV's, or even AWD cars. They've got a Focus, and a set of winter tires.
Mabye if people would invest in a set of winter and a set of summer tires, (instead of 'all seasons'), they would find that they can actually control their vehicles.


(This thread appears to have grown a bit overnight)

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Well I think we can all agree. That the best car to drive in the snow are old Beetles with snow tires.

Although it was wayyy before my time, I remember seeing an ad that said something like "Ever wonder how the mailman gets to the post office?" As he's driving through a foot of fresh powder early in the morning in his VW Bug.

........................................................................................................

Regarding SUVs. This was a few posts back, regarding the PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE rant that took place. Subaru Outback 2.5 XT Wagon (250hp/250lb-ft.) starts at around $28,600. Volvo V50 T5 AWD (218hp/236lb-ft), starts at $29,900. OH DEAR! $1300 difference!!

Well that shock and awe was really unnecessary, but the fact is, is that with so many dealer rebates (regardless that it's almost always IMPOSSIBLE to get all of them), the price differences are ususally negated with various lease options. I'd go out and find more comparisons regarding price and how M5Power shouting makes everyone elses points useless, but then it be entering a war that's far more entertaining from the sidelines.

Although, I can't believe that nobody has asked monsieur M5Power how old he is. Some of his rebuttles show the complexity and depth often used by a twelve year old. His rationality at times is well . . . questionable . . . But one thing is for sure, his patience is nonexistant for those who don't agree with his blatantly obvious points as to why SUVs are the only logical way of transportation. Because apparently in the one hundred years of automobiles, modern SUVs have shown in fifteen years that history means nothing and that truck frames with leather interiors and optional AWD packages will be the end of all our driving problems.


EDIT:

Ohh I can't wait to see how long it takes M5Power to flame me for my intelligence on par with that of a coconut, and stupidity remenescent of the 2005 US Grand Prix.

 

[Onikaze]

911's with Snow Tires are incredible in the snow too.

All that rearward weight bias helps a lot in braking, and that front end bob and floatiness helps the front tires avoid digging into the snow too deep and sliding.

Just like the old beetles, but good luck finding one worth spending money on these days.

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Maybe I'll put MINE up for sale if the price somone proposes is right.

Then again, I don't drive mine in the snow simply because it's a convertible and I'm paranoid and salt & rust and that whole mess. But if you love underbody washes every week, go for it!

But another indirect point about old Beetles and the history of the SUV. If society made a two door coupe the most popular car in the world for decades, why all of a sudden is the only rational motoring purchase an SUV today?

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm not going to completely defend M5Power for everything he has said, but he is entitled to his own opinion. Not everyone is a flaming Liberal who think driving SUVs has a penalty of death, given that all of us should be driving Toyota Prius'.

If you care or not, there will always be a market for SUVs. People are going to need large trucks to not only carry cargo, but carry the whole family, and tow the boat as well. Given the performance of this current generation of Minivans and most "tough" crossovers, they still can't match the effectiveness of something like a Chevrolet Tahoe or a Dodge Durango.

There are two sides to this issue STLBarcelona5, and you aren't necessiarily right either.

 

[STLbarcelona5]

I'm not going to completely defend M5Power for everything he has said, but he is entitled to his own opinion. Not everyone is a flaming Liberal who think driving SUVs has a penalty of death, given that all of us should be driving Toyota Prius'.

If you care or not, there will always be a market for SUVs. People are going to need large trucks to not only carry cargo, but carry the whole family, and tow the boat as well. Given the performance of this current generation of Minivans and most "tough" crossovers, they still can't match the effectiveness of something like a Chevrolet Tahoe or a Dodge Durango.

There are two sides to this issue STLBarcelona5, and you aren't necessiarily right either.

I'm not defending/attacking opinions. My intention was to comment on how these opinions are being raised. And that's really what the problem has become regarding this thread.

Instead of "here are my points what are yours." It's "this is what I'm saying, if you disagree you're wrong." Because of this, the thread is no longer an discussion but a series of back and forth "he said she said, I'm right your wrong" posts.

And for the record, I dislike BOTH Prius' and Tahoes/Durangos, etc.

 

[1X83Z]

Claiming that SUVs are superior because they're "smaller than the full-size minivans we get" is asinine, when older, smaller minivans and a plethora of even-smaller cars and wagons -- which are all viable alternatives for a large portion of SUV buyers -- exist.

You're right. I should buy a 1994 Dodge Caravan rather than a brand new SUV because it makes you feel better about yourself.

No serious - what older, smaller minivans were you referring to?

AND NAME A WAGON

Jesus. Are you referring to the Ford Taurus, or something? And please don't name used cars, unless they're decent, and you're ready to find me an example of one on AutoTrader. I don't want to hear about how you can get an E39 540iT for $6k.

something as big as an SUV?

Surely you mean something as big as a MINIVAN, as I've consistently demonstrated that minivans are NOTABLY LARGER than SUVs.

Once again: Jesus.

Since when do we "need" to get to 60mph in less than 10 seconds, anyway?

Um. Since the highway speed limit jumped from the 35mph it was back when cars did 0-60 in ten seconds to the 65mph it is today. I further implore you to attempt a two-lane pass in a minivan, particularly one of GM's minivans that are running 0-60 in the low elevens. Especially pass an eighteen wheeler. I've done this about sixty times in the last month and trust me - it was damn difficult in my 0-60 8.5 SUV. In a minivan running an 11.2sec 0-60 time, I'd probably have killed myself. No joke.

Do they not sell used cars in Colorado? Or do you wander from dealership parking lot to dealership parking lot, living in a cardboard box? There are many, many body-on-frame, work-worthy, V8-powered SUVs out there.

I've never purchased a new vehicle, and I never plan to. Buying new cars is something idiots do when they don't have any idea what they're doing.

BUT I AM NOT THE VAST MAJORITY OF HUMAN BEINGS

Look - people buy new cars. They WANT new cars. They'll accept "nearly new" cars - stuff like pre-owned, and lease-returned. But the sort of stuff I fear you're talking about, like the late-70s AMC wagons, are NOT the kind of vehicles women who are buying Lexus RX330s are considering. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the average SUV buyer, NOT IN YOUR OWN SHOES. Otherwise the SUV will be an illogical choice. Only when you understand why people buy SUVs as they do will you understand my argument.

Smaller, unibodied SUVs that get decent gas mileage aren't so bad, but they're still silly, and often exceed the needs of the owners. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of, say, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz SUVs are overkill for what the owners do with them -- commuting.

Point conceded. I agree. It's not particularly relevant, but it's true. I actually disagree with your original statement though. Smaller, uni-body SUVs don't really exceed the needs of owners. Even if they only turn on AWD once or twice a year, they're typically still used quite fully - seats down carrying animals or stuff like kid equipment or groceries, four or five passengers with seats up, etc. This is how we use our small, unibody SUV.

Your argument is voided by the large, large number of "ordinary" people on the road who survive winter after winter in FWD or RWD cars.

I consider no-one who survives a true winter in an RWD car "ordinary."

The Ford Freelander, Chevrolet Equinox, Chrysler Pacifica, etc are all far better choises (IMO) despite their lower build quality and less-than-invloving driving expiriences.

Assuming you mean the Land Rover Freelander I have just this to offer: there is no vehicle on Earth which the Land Rover Freelander is better than. Except the Suzuki XL-7.

You can get Minivans with AWD, all of the major U.S. models, and I think only the Nissan doesn't offer it (I might be wrong), for less cash than any comparable SUV, cargo/room/mileage wise.

I made that statement three pages ago. Wonder why no-one rebutted to it? Because your rebuttal is total crap.

Of the minivans presently offered (seven, not including twins), just two models offer all-wheel drive: the GM minivans, which everyone in this thread concedes are absolutely the biggest pieces of crap ever manufactured, and Toyota, which thankfully does offer the feature. POA of the AWD Sienna is $28700, which is a bit high, but it's definitely a good thing.

However.

Dodge Caravan? No AWD. Chrysler Town & Country? No AWD. Ford Freestar? No AWD. Honda Odyssey? No AWD. Hyundai Entourage? No AWD. Kia Sedona? No AWD. Mazda MPV? No AWD. Mercury Monterey? No AWD. Nissan Quest? No AWD.

Don't be stupid.

I must laugh, you realise that it is hard to find an SUV for under $30,000 these days, and most with options wind up from $35,000 to $48,000.

Yeah, but I was giving the base prices of all those wagons. Fully optioned, those wagons'll run ya still extremely higher margins than SUVs.

Consider this.

The base XC70 is really not that pricey. It's a mere $35700. But the most EXPENSIVE Ford Escape, which has extremely similar cargo volume and fuel economy ratings, starts at $24900 - or a savings of nearly $11000. You could then get every single option on the Escape, run up a ridiculously over-specced model including 6-CD, heated leather, a sunroof, airbags everywhere, 6-CD, backup sensor, auto-dimming mirrors, etc. and still end up under $30000. Meanwhile the Volvo has none of that stuff and it's still $6k more expensive. And I can do that comparison for each of those wagons, and I'd win for each of those wagons, 'cause they're all PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE. Don't be stupid.

Oh, about the BMW.

You can understand my confusion about the 525XiT, can't you?

Either way, the 530XiT makes the point too.

No, I can't. The vehicle doesn't exist. Do better research (assuming it was you who mentioned the vehicle in the first place, I don't remember).

By the way, while I've got you here, explain to me one thing.

Why does the 530xiT, which uses the engine from the X5 3.0i, cost the same as the X5 4.4i? Does that make sense to you? How come, for the price of the very most basic 5-series AWD wagon, I can have MY PICK of X5s? Doesn't that seem stupid to you? It sure does to me. Maybe it helps you understand the term PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE.

Don't be stupid.