So So GTO

[///M-Spec]

If you compare the basic Monaro, to the BMW330 clubsport, its an absolute steal. Cheaper, a better performer and rated higher in all the car mags.

The Monaro/GTO is quite a bit faster in a straight line, but doesn't quite handle as well as the 330. I've driven both (in fact, I own the US version of the Club Sport) and there is a distinct advantage for the Bimmer in the twisty stuff. The 3800lb Monaro feels absolutely ponderous and under tired when push comes to shove.

The GTO is a terrific bargin, though and an excellent car.


M

 

[Race Idiot]

The Monaro/GTO is quite a bit faster in a straight line, but doesn't quite handle as well as the 330. I've driven both (in fact, I own the US version of the Club Sport) and there is a distinct advantage for the Bimmer in the twisty stuff. The 3800lb Monaro feels absolutely ponderous and under tired when push comes to shove.

The GTO is a terrific bargin, though and an excellent car.


M

Well that's expected, the 330 doesn't have a 5.7L V8 in the front, also the 3 has a better chassis and better weight distribution.

 

[///M-Spec]

Well that's expected, the 330 doesn't have a 5.7L V8 in the front, also the 3 has a better chassis and better weight distribution.

Mostly, its this:

330i/Ci Club Sport (UK), ZHP Performance Package (US), M Sport II Package (Germany and other markets)

Weight: ~3300 lbs.
Weight dist: 50/50
Suspension type: front strut, multi-link rear
Tires: 225/40x18 F, 255/35x18 R

Pontiac GTO (US market)

Weight: ~3800 lbs.
Weight dist: 55/45
Suspension type: front strut, semi-trailing arm rear
Tires: 245/45x17

The Goat is simply too heavy with not enough tire and not enough rear suspension. Oddly, its not much larger than the 3-series inside or out.


M

 

[Race Idiot]

So a 350bhp car has skinnier rear tyres than a 200 (Is it 200bhp? i'm not too clued in on the specs of the 3) something bhp car, wierd. The weight distribution and overall weight I wouldve expected, doesn't the C6 vette have fairly antiquated rear suspension as well? Although it still manages handle the twisties fairly well.

 

[///M-Spec]

So a 350bhp car has skinnier rear tyres than a 200 (Is it 200bhp? i'm not too clued in on the specs of the 3) something bhp car, wierd. The weight distribution and overall weight I wouldve expected,

330i/Ci is 231 hp DIN in Europe, 225hp SAE in the US.

The US-Spec ZHP version is 235 hp SAE.

doesn't the C6 vette have fairly antiquated rear suspension as well? Although it still manages handle the twisties fairly well.

Actually, yes and no. It has a pretty good IRS in the back with transverse leaf springs based on the C5. Straight-forward design from the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school. Corvettes handle very well. No steering feedback like a BMW, but it gets the job done.

EDIT: okay, okay. Leaf springs are old tech. But it still works.


M

 

[TheCracker]

Actually, no. It has a pretty good IRS in the back with transverse leaf springs based on the C5. Straight-forward design from the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school. Corvettes handle very well. No steering feedback like a BMW, but it gets the job done.

Transverse leaf-springs!!!!! - the Flintstones used more sophisticated suspension than that!!!!

I really don't agree with some of those american statements about 'if it ain't broken don't fix it' - the 'walkie talkie' did its job very well - but the mobile phone (cell-phone) does the job much better. Or 'theres no replacement for displacement'
- which is fine if your running a 'rail-dragster' but is an outdated way to get better perfomance in the modern world.

I'm sure as a Bemmer owner, you can see how these philosophies practically write out the possibilities of selling cars in other markets apart from the domestic ones.

 

[87chevy]

Transverse leaf-springs!!!!! - the Flintstones used more sophisticated suspension than that!!!!

but if it works, it works, you can't argue with that. you probably with though.......

oh, and your walkie talkie anagology is crap. in no way did walkie talkies accomplish what cell phones can. you can't talk across the country with kids walkie talkie, nor can you have a private conversation.

 

[TheCracker]

I'm sure sticking the wheel hubs to the chassis with chewing gum and marshmellows would also 'work' but it doesn't mean you should!

Trabant made millions of cars with cardboard bodies up until quite recently which 'worked' - but it didn't stop them from being a laughing stock!

 

[TheCracker]

oh, and your walkie talkie anagology is crap. in no way did walkie talkies accomplish what cell phones can. you can't talk across the country with kids walkie talkie, nor can you have a private conversation.

...neither can you make a sportscar with transverse springs handle like a Porsche

 

[///M-Spec]

Transverse leaf-springs!!!!! - the Flintstones used more sophisticated suspension than that!!!!

I really don't agree with some of those american statements about 'if it ain't broken don't fix it' - the 'walkie talkie' did its job very well - but the mobile phone (cell-phone) does the job much better. Or 'theres no replacement for displacement'
- which is fine if your running a 'rail-dragster' but is an outdated way to get better perfomance in the modern world.

I'm sure as a Bemmer owner, you can see how these philosophies practically write out the possibilities of selling cars in other markets apart from the domestic ones.

You know what? I used to compete quite a bit in Solo II; a handling intensive time-trial sport popular here in the States. The turns are tight. The speeds are low. Tiny cars like S2000s and Miatas do very well in Solo II because agility is king on the small tracks.

You wouldn't think a big wide car with along wheelbase like a Vette would do very well in Solo II, but THEY DO. A very good driver in a C5 would edge me out in my E36 M3 fairly regularly. A very good driver in a Z06 would bury me alive.

In fact, there are almost no cars I can think of that can match the Z06 in the stock classes short of a full on super car like a GT2. Certainly not in the price range. (Now in the modified classes, all bets are off.)

Its old tech, but it works.


M

 

[TheCracker]

Yes but i'm sure those Solo II events are run on nice flat, smooth surfaces. Once you get onto different, less smooth and even roads, like we have in Europe, Japan and the rest of the world - that kind of suspension (along with the Mustangs 'live-axel') just don't do the business. Thats why although excellent on price, the Corvette, Mustang and muscle-cars of old have always been seen as unsophisticated 'curiosoties' rather than genuine rivals. And i'm not saying this because i love the sophistication of Porsche or Ferrari or even BMW's suspension set-ups, I'm more of a Caterham or TVR man myself - and they are pretty basic. I race a car myself with leafsprings and a live-axel - but that is almost 40 years old!

 

[///M-Spec]

Yes but i'm sure those Solo II events are run on nice flat, smooth surfaces. Once you get onto different, less smooth and even roads, like we have in Europe, Japan and the rest of the world - that kind of suspension (along with the Mustangs 'live-axel') just don't do the business.

That is all true and a good point. Solo events are on fairly flat and smooth surfaces. Sometimes the pavement is old and broken up, as in the case of old WWII era airfields, but they are always flat.

Leaf springs are horse and carriage technology, I'll admit to that. But I think the Vette has a lot more going for it in its overall design. It has a very low CG. It is very wide and has big tires. Most of the weight is in the center between the axles (unlike some other sports cars out there) Simple, yes, but effective for the most part. It's very hard to talk down a car that's just handed you your arse in a paper bag.


M

 

[West Side Ninja]

Go look at the 1/4 times for the evo/GTO they are both in the mid-high 13's. Want me to go find more cars for cheaper that are quicker in the 1/4?

 

[87chevy]

Go look at the 1/4 times for the evo/GTO they are both in the mid-high 13's. Want me to go find more cars for cheaper that are quicker in the 1/4?

i still want you name a car that has 350hp for 32500 dollars US, new off the factory showroom floor...... you do that then i'll be impressed.

 

[1X83Z]

Go look at the 1/4 times for the evo/GTO they are both in the mid-high 13's. Want me to go find more cars for cheaper that are quicker in the 1/4?

What 87chevy said.

I know isn't the quickest or fastest for its price - though for some reason you chose a close competitor rather than the Dodge Neon SRT-4 or something - but my point, a point which you still don't seem to comprehend, is that no other car has its power rating at its price point. I'm still waiting for you to prove this one wrong.

 

[West Side Ninja]

I have to name a car with the exact same price and the exact same horsepower? That's faster? This is unfair, but I'll find somthing.

Why not narrow it down to: pontiacs only, has to have "g" and "o" in the car's name. Has to be +-$1 of the price of the GTO. You made your questions so specific that it isn't posible to have a right answer. I gave you a car that was about 2400 more with a lot more horsepower and better styling and was faster, then I gave you a car that was cheaper, faster, and had less horsepower. Unbelievable. The cobra is still in the compeditive price range of the GTO whether you want to admit it or not.

edit: I just looked up the invoice prices on the GTO and the Cobra. They are $1,578 apart. Is that close enough now? When the prices are that close, it basicly comes down to your haggling skills with the dealer. I set up a finance (to save some money on the overall price) then just give them the money down, then give them the rest of the money the next month. (you can't do this will all dealers unfortunatly. )

And If I had $33,000 to buy a sports car, I would buy an '03 cobra. 👍

 

[1X83Z]

I have to name a car with the exact same price and the exact same horsepower? That's faster? This is unfair, but I'll find somthing.

No, obviously, we're not asking you to find the exact vehicle. We're CLEARLY asking for a car that costs the $32500 or less with 350 or more horsepower. If this isn't absolutely obvious to you then I suggest at least ten more years of round-the-clock schooling.

Dammit, I don't believe we cancelled the ROTFL smiley! Just when I'm on occaision to use it!

edit: I just looked up the invoice prices on the GTO and the Cobra. They are $1,578 apart. Is that close enough now?

The invoice price of a 2004 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra coupe is $32100; the invoice price of a 2004 Pontiac GTO is $30000, bringing the difference to $2100.

The MSRP of a 2004 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra coupe is $34900; the MSRP of a 2004 Pontiac GTO is $32500, making the difference $2400.

If you think you can haggle a Mustang SVT Cobra down to the GTO's price, then I think I can haggle a GTO even lower. There's no way the Mustang costs the same as the GTO.

And If I had $33,000 to buy a sports car, I would buy an '03 cobra. 👍

Okay, cool.

 

[West Side Ninja]

On www.kbb.com I got different invoice prices.

 

[Chevelle SS]

I have to name a car with the exact same price and the exact same horsepower? That's faster? This is unfair, but I'll find somthing.

He asked if you could find a new car with 350bhp or over with a price of 32500 or under, and M5 said he'd be impressed if you found one because THERE ISN'T ONE.

I gave you a car that was cheaper, faster, and had less horsepower.

The question was for a car with 350bhp or more, not a faster car.

They are $1,578 apart. Is that close enough now? When the prices are that close, it basicly comes down to your haggling skills with the dealer.

Not all dealers will do that, so a price you get by haggling will not be consistent from person to person, and therefore can't be measured. Besides, what are you going to do, haggle for a cheaper Cobra and not with the GTO? What, you can haggle with a Ford dealer and not a Pontiac? Anyway, he asked for the invoice price, not what you can haggle down to.

 

[West Side Ninja]

I know there isn't one, but the Cobra is the closest. You have to haggle differently with different dealers. Maybe the Pontiac dealer won't go lower than x amount but the ford dealer is willing to go so low that it goes below the GTO invoice. $1,500-$2,400 isn't a huge amount to pay for 40 more horses. But yes for that HORSEPOWER you can't find a cheaper CAR, you can find a faster car for much lower than that price. All that horsepower doesn't mean **** when it can't peak it's performance.

 

[Driftster]

Well of course it isn't going to handle, it's a 3400 pound coupe with a 350 V8.

CTS-V handles great..and it weights 3800lbs

and second..yes that is an unfair question, in general the more you pay the more you get...But if you get 350HP for 32500 you're paying $92.80 for every pony. So bang for the buck is not a catagory this car excells at either. And for a car that doesn't handle well either, I know it's not intended to, I mean it's a GTO. But neither is a Cadillac, but they can.

 

[JohnBM01]

Cadillac... talking about it's trying to go to the youth market with its styling of late. Name me a 21-year old with trendiness and a passion to stand out... who eventually buys a Cadillac. And people talk about the xB being ugly (I don't like the xA if you ask me), so how do you describe the CTS-V with the 'Vette motor? The grill alone... it's like kissing (or even marrying) a dorky, nerdy tomboy of a girl (like maybe that girl "Solid Lifters" had as an avatar earlier this year).

I don't know about you, but as I've said, the new GTO isn't icky to me. I don't think you have to like American cars in order to get into the GTO. I think the new GTO is pretty nice. It's the nicest offering from GM nowadays in my view. I enjoy the styling, even if America couldn't come up with such design cues themselves (most of us would probably not like it). Gold is where you find it, I say. And if means going outside of America (hell, it's a start), then so be it. Do whatever you can. Look at the De Tomaso Pantera GTS. Italian car, American engine. I've heard of Alfa Romeo making cars from Pinafarina (correct spelling?) So you have to go where you have to to make cars stand out. You can complain on and on about horsepower, but this topic is about the new GTO's LOOKS, not horsepower. You want horsepower? Restore a classic muscle car. So I'm afraid to say that the horsepower talk is irrelevant.

I never said the new GTO was beautiful or alluring, but I say that the effort to go to another country for looks, it's worth it. Time spent, designs considered... GM Australia's Holden brand gave them just that. And more. If they want to continue with them, they (GM America) will have to look into Australia for stying. If the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[1X83Z]

Thanks for the help, Chevelle SS, but I think it's a never-ending battle.

I know there isn't one

Finally! The admission!

But if you get 350HP for 32500 you're paying $92.80 for every pony. So bang for the buck is not a catagory this car excells at either. And for a car that doesn't handle well either, I know it's not intended to, I mean it's a GTO. But neither is a Cadillac, but they can.

The GTO handles unbelievably well. No, it's no 3-series or Corvette, but as I said, it handles better than a Jaguar XK8 and Acura TL and that's definitely good enough for me. Driftster, have you ever driven a GTO?

By the way, paying under $100 per horsepower for a new car is a great deal, you try to pay under $130 if horsepower is all that matters. Not counting pickup trucks, the only new cars under $100 per horsepower (organized by amount under):

- Saturn Ion 1 ($74.50)
- Suzuki Aerio S ($83.86)
- Dodge Magnum RT ($83.91)
- Dodge Neon SRT-4 ($88.91)
- Ford Mustang SVT Cobra coupe ($89.38)
- Saturn Vue V6 2WD ($89.62)
- Ford Mustang GT Deluxe coupe ($91.06)
- Jeep Liberty Sport 2WD ($91.07)
- Kia Spectra LX ($91.45)
- Dodge Magnum SE 3.5 ($91.48)
- Chevrolet Aveo SVM 5-door ($91.80)
- Chevrolet Aveo SVM sedan ($91.80)
- Nissan 350Z ($91.88)
- Nissan Altima 3.5SE ($92.40)
- Mazda 3i ($92.43)
- Chrysler 300C ($92.49)
- Hyundai Accent 3-door ($92.58)
- Pontiac GTO ($92.86)
- Mitsubishi Galant LS ($93.03)
- Isuzu Ascender S 2WD ($93.45)
- Kia Rio sedan ($93.65)
- Ford Mustang Standard coupe ($94.04)
- Ford Mustang Mach 1 ($94.35)
- Isuzu Rodeo S 3.5 2WD ($94.80)
- Suzuki Aerio LX ($94.83)
- Ford Mustang GT Premium coupe ($95.56)
- Ford Focus ZX3 S ($95.63)
- Toyota Echo coupe ($95.88)
- Saturn Vue V6 4WD ($96.22)
- Hyundai Elantra GLS ($96.37)
- Isuzu Rodeo S 3.2 2WD ($96.58)
- Honda Accord LX V6 sedan ($97.08)
- Honda Accord LX V6 coupe ($97.50)
- Ford Mustang Deluxe coupe ($97.82)
- Mazda 6s sedan ($97.84)
- Jeep Liberty Sport 4WD ($98.26)
- Nissan Sentra SE-R ($98.29)
- Suzuki Vitara 2WD LX ($98.78)
- Kia Sorento LX 2WD ($98.93)
- Suzuki Forenza S ($99.20)
- Honda Accord DX ($99.38)
- Isuzu Axiom S 2WD ($99.40)
- Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V ($99.43)
- Kia Spectra EX ($99.64)
- Chevrolet Trailblazer LS 2WD ($99.71)
- Toyota Sienna CE 7-passenger ($99.80)

The Pontiac GTO, the car which you dismiss but know nothing about, ranks 18th on that list; there are about 850 vehicle trim levels in total - that means it's a better "bang for your buck" than 97.9% of all other cars, minivans, and SUVs on the market. Nice going. 👍

 

[super cirrus]

No, obviously, we're not asking you to find the exact vehicle. We're CLEARLY asking for a car that costs the $32500 or less with 350 or more horsepower. If this isn't absolutely obvious to you then I suggest at least ten more years of round-the-clock schooling.

Dammit, I don't believe we cancelled the ROTFL smiley! Just when I'm on occaision to use it!



The invoice price of a 2004 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra coupe is $32100; the invoice price of a 2004 Pontiac GTO is $30000, bringing the difference to $2100.

The MSRP of a 2004 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra coupe is $34900; the MSRP of a 2004 Pontiac GTO is $32500, making the difference $2400.

If you think you can haggle a Mustang SVT Cobra down to the GTO's price, then I think I can haggle a GTO even lower. There's no way the Mustang costs the same as the GTO.



Okay, cool.

telling him to findthat really wasn't a fair question to ask. There is no way to find a car for the same price with the same or more hp.

Can you find a car that'll beat the cobra's 390 hp for $34,900?

Also, whats so important about the horsepower if all around performance can be matched be a cheaper car. Someone earlier mentioned the evo, which matches or beats the gto in all performance areas and is cheaper to boot. I just find the "find a 350hp or better car for less than $32000" kinda pointless.

 

[West Side Ninja]

I mentioned the cobra first and I mentioned the evo too. Why buy the GTO if you can buy a car that performs better in all areas for cheaper? HP rating is great and all, but they are usually BS anyway. Take a brand new car to the dyno and it won't hit it's HP rating. I believe the car with the most horsepower on that list was the cobra. Find a car that has more horsepower for less money than the cobra.

 

[Victor Vance]

It's true, I know someone with a tricked out Cobra (not the looks, just the drivetrain and sound system) that has an output of 500 hp modified, but he said out of the box the car was making 400 hp at the wheels...

 

[1X83Z]

telling him to findthat really wasn't a fair question to ask. There is no way to find a car for the same price with the same or more hp.

That was my freaking POINT. Driftster said ignorantly that the GTO was a bad performance value, I asked him to find another car for its price with more horsepower. In reality, there AREN'T ANY, making Driftster wrong. But West Side Ninja for some reason decided he could take on logic and argue against this. He understands the point - you've missed it.

Can you find a car that'll beat the cobra's 390 hp for $34,900?

Dude.

Unbelievable.

Can you find a car that beats the Dodge Viper's 500bhp for $81000? I fear for the intelligence of any offspring you may have.

Find a car that has more horsepower for less money than the cobra.

And here I was thinking you understood the point! How old are you, seriously? 14? No, I can't find something that beast the Cobra - such a vehicle does not exist. It's the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLE I'm using in my argument. But then can you find something that beats the Viper? Or the 360 Modena? Or the Murcielago? Or the Enzo? JESUS CHRIST, I SAID THE GTO FOR A REASON.

You people are completely unbelievable.

 

[Driftster]

I think it's just that when on GTP one of the foremost aspects people look for in a car is performance, especially a car labeled "GTO" yes..its HP #'s are great, but so are the HP #'s on a Cruise ship...The car isn't that great of a track performer, not that great of a looker IMO.....And you're just thinking about the car in a completely linear fashion. You're look at figures and saying it's a Great car for the $ There are thousands of variables that come into play from where you live to who you know to what bank you're getting a loan from that would drop that GTO having a good price to it being rediculously overpriced or underpriced. Neon SRT-4's are now 26,000+ in Phx......But it's still the "fastest car under 20,000"

 

[West Side Ninja]

Ya I can beat the 360 modena. Ford GT, beats it in EVERYTHING.

 

[1X83Z]

I think it's just that when on GTP one of the foremost aspects people look for in a car is performance, especially a car labeled "GTO" yes..its HP #'s are great, but so are the HP #'s on a Cruise ship...The car isn't that great of a track performer, not that great of a looker IMO.....And you're just thinking about the car in a completely linear fashion. You're look at figures and saying it's a Great car for the $ There are thousands of variables that come into play from where you live to who you know to what bank you're getting a loan from that would drop that GTO having a good price to it being rediculously overpriced or underpriced. Neon SRT-4's are now 26,000+ in Phx......But it's still the "fastest car under 20,000"

I won't even go into why this post is unbelievably stupid, but I will say that this is one of your finest.

You've never driven a GTO, and I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't driven a car in real life. Yeah, I know all about your running away from cops at 130 and I don't buy any of it.