So what actually needs fixing with the ai?

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gnorman

gnorman

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GTP_YodaTheCat
There are so many posts about how poor the ai is and that it should be fixed, but what is actually wrong, how can it be improved?

Are the racing lines any good? Is there enough reaction to other cars? Why do cars slow down when you get close to them? Why do they brake early approaching a corner and then again near the apex?

Anyone have any actual knowledge on how they create the ai driving style? They can't be reproducing an actual player or racer's line and inputs judging by how it performs.
 
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Everything, every thing the AI does is wrong and stupid. They use active steering and SRF to make them stuck on the track like they are on rails, use the incorrect line and brake to early and let you win, even if they didn't let you win you would still win because you can easily out brake them. Also there has been some cases where they seem to be using different physics.
 
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starknight97
Everything, every thing the AI does is wrong and stupid. They use active steering and SRF to make them stuck on the track like they are on rails, use the incorrect line and brake to early and let you win, even if they didn't let you win you would still win because you can easily out brake them. Also there has been some cases where they seem to be using different physics.
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^THIS

little two cents I'll add on is I just want 16 competitive cars if I make a single mistake I should easily either end up either done for that race, or about 8 spots behind especially if a car is close up on me.

The only problem with this though is we need actual penalties/flag system. Really an actual penalty system would help get us closer to solving an over-arching problem with GT. That problem is basically realistic feeling of a race.
 
starknight97
Everything, every thing the AI does is wrong and stupid. They use active steering and SRF to make them stuck on the track like they are on rails, use the incorrect line and brake to early and let you win, even if they didn't let you win you would still win because you can easily out brake them. Also there has been some cases where they seem to be using different physics.
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So, to improve, have the AI using the same settings as the driver? I'm not sure that gets to the heart of the problem, it just means they'll fall off the road more, making them slower.

Defensive driving, so trying to take the inside in the braking zone? That would help show a little intelligence and make it harder for the player.

Have them stick to a laptime so even if you are way behind, they keep going? That would require the races to be more tightly regulated in terms of cars allowed to enter, or having a qualifying session that effectively sets the race pace of the ai to your quali time?

Depending on how the AI is coded the first 2 could be fixed with an update, but the third one may be a little trickier and there is no way qualifying will be introduced before GT7
 
The first thing to fix would be hiring somebody who knows their stuff, isn't the guy responsible for GT6's AI some vehicle dynamics guy from Konami's ex Enthusia development team? With that sort of mismanagement there needs to be a proper clear-out at Polyphony Digital.


As a stop gap fix they should patch in either 5s or PSP's AI with some sort of quick tune AI menu for the arcade mode, like GT5: Prologue had with the PP slider. GT6 should give the user options to adjust the power, weight, tyre compound of the AI's chosen car to suit their speed. As for the career mode, I'd rather have the "S" AI from the PSP game as it has reasonable pace and stays within range throughout the entire race. It's pretty sad that a portable GT game offers better racing than its bigger brothers.

Zuku
The only problem with this though is we need actual penalties/flag system.
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There's a full flag system in the game but it's not being fully utilised:

Flags:

NONE
BLUE
OIL
GREEN
WHITE
ORANGE
BLACK
13
14
YELLOW0
YELLOW1
YELLOW2
15
16
RED
CHEQUERED
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Flag set options:

NONE
NORMAL
F1
NASCAR
LOW
RALLY
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Biggest problem is that they slow down if you are behind.

2nd biggest problem is that they are to slow in equal car on equal tires.

Many other problems people complain about (they brake so early, they always run in my back) are caused by how people react on the first 2 problems.
They take much slower cars, which causes the AI to slow down more (brake way to early and crawl around corners) and once you overtake them (and the "slowdown" gets canceled by it) they start bullying you and running in your back under braking because they are much much faster than you in your underpowered car.

I think PD just not expected people to do that.
If you take an only slightly slower car and only one step worse tires you get better races.
Still somewhat easy (as the whole career is) but at least not completely stupid.

Another problem is that they don't "see" you when they change line and bump in to your side.
But with some experience you know where they change line and can avoid it.

Only races where i find them annoying is NASCAR Daytona and in LeMans (the kink where you start to brake for Moulsanne).
An there it is mainly the absolutely ridiculous exaggerated slipstream effect that makes them close up so fast that they sometimes can't brake in time.
I also often miss corners completely or run in the back of opponents because of that f.....g slipstream, so i can't really blame the AI for doing it too.

If they are in an equal car and not in "slow" mode they are not that bad.
They outbraked me on the inside when i took a wide line, they gave me room when i overtake on the outside, they make room when i overlap them.

So yes they are bad but i bet if PD would only fix the races* themself and disable the "AI slowdown" it would be much less noticeable and we could have pretty good races against them.

*races a bit longer, player starts more in the middle, closer matched opponents, random opponent start position (not always fastest first, slowest last)
 
I wonder whether the AI of GT6 is that totally remade system Kaz talked about back in June (that they hadn't yet made the breakthrough for) or just the GT5 AI with some patches to make it more competitive.

Whistle Snap
There's a full flag system in the game but it's not being fully utilised:
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Fascinating! This wouldn't be the first time PD has implemented flags in a GT game. The GT5 Time Trial demo from 2009 had flags that could be triggered with a glitch:

As we know, the flags were nowhere to be found in the final game. The question is, what are the chances of those flags (other than the checkered flag) making an appearance in GT6...?
 
I've seen people post that they most enjoy hotlapping, so how much of a racing game is the Real Driving Simulator?

The AI, lack of endurance and the chase the rabbit races are widely despised but what else needs work to make it a proper racing game again?

How happy are people with the physics, lack of damage, 2/3 laps with no qualifying and so on?

I have little problem with the driving itself, but would like to see more medium races like the 24 mins ones and the return of endurance as long as Bob can play too.

I'd also like to see mechanical damage implemented better than GT5. I don't care much if there is no visual damage, but punctures, crash damage, bent suspension, broken aerodynamic parts and other things that can happen in races would be welcome and help improve the standard of racing. I'm not sure that random engine failure and things outside of the influence of the driver would be welcome, but maybe damage from constant over-reving would be interesting. How many mechanical pitfalls can be fairly incorporated?
 
What I want fixed the most if nothing else, is the AI's braking. They have some sort of super brakes. Instead of hitting full brakes just before the corner and doing a stoppie, they could start braking slightly earlier and do it smoothly. Maybe even drive the corners faster.

If you want an good example of super brakes. Go to Matternhorn Rotenboden and at the end of the long downhill the AI somehow manages to brake and slow down enough just before the corner. While you have to start braking way before and try to do it without losing balance because of the steep hill.
 
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IMO 2 things could be changed and make the AI more competitive and fun to race against.
1: Make them more aware of the players car and give proper distance so they do not cut over as you pass and spin you out.
2: Make them try to do their best lap every lap.

Another thing that would help is to let them have the best tires allowed for the event. If it allows SS then don't have them running SH or CS tires
 
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It's easily noticed in the missions or any other time you use a slower car than the competition. When they are ahead, the drive lazily and brake early so you pass them almost immediately. But once you overtake, a light siwtch turns on and the become aggressive to the point of ramming you when you brake for turns.

They occasionally leave you space when you are next to them, but if you make a tiny error or take a different line than the AI expects you to, the have no ability to adapt and end up shoving you out of their way with their bulldozer SRF.

 
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HBR-Roadhog
Another thing that would help is to let them have the best tires allowed for the event. If it allows SS then don't have them running SH or CS tires
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I thought they do so in almost every race ?
(Only in races with race cars they seem to take only RH)

Only in "S" races with tire wear i noticed them to take "lower than allowed" tires.

I hate that they use race tires in the 458 and Aventador races, so stupid this driving stock street cars on race tires thing.

I would prefer them to use the tires the car comes with when you buy it, and they should be fast with them.
As it is now you can easily overtake them on SH in a equal car when they are on SS.
 
Honestly I haven't looked at all the races but aside from races which allow all tires [some S class races] it appears that the cars are using whatever tires come on the car.
 
That's been the case since the days of GT1 and Gran Turismo hard-core fans (like me) still love it, so I guess... if it's not broken, don't fix it? :p
 
PsuPepperoni
It's easily noticed in the missions or any other time you use a slower car than the competition. When they are ahead, the drive lazily and brake early so you pass them almost immediately. But once you overtake, a light siwtch turns on and the become aggressive to the point of ramming you when you brake for turns.
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Maybe it's using the same code from GT5 B-Spec where Bob's heat would rise near other cars and cool down when a gap appeared. That was the worst thing about B-spec.. The AI should be told to aim for a certain lap time and based on the skill of the AI Bob be able to stick to it or not.
 
PsuPepperoni
It's easily noticed in the missions or any other time you use a slower car than the competition. When they are ahead, the drive lazily and brake early so you pass them almost immediately. But once you overtake, a light siwtch turns on and the become aggressive to the point of ramming you when you brake for turns.

The occasionally leave you space when you are next to them, but if you make a tiny error or take a different line than the AI expects you to, the have no ability to adapt and end up shoving you out of their way with their bulldozer SRF.

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Yes they behave like B-Spec did in GT5

They only go fast when you are around them, if they are far ahead they fall asleep and if they are too far back they also give up.

What should he have done at 0:30 ? Spun right in front of him.
At 0:55 you had no business there, to far back, he had choice of hitting you our go in the barrier outside.

1:24 is a problem i mentioned before, they don't see you sometimes, but easy to avoid.
I would never be there outside, would overtake on inside.

1:46 pisses me off too, they do that often although you are clear ahed and they could easily avoid you.
Good thing is it usually is no problem as he hits the outside under acceleration (inside under braking is mean)
Last one i don't know, for a gentleman race its a..hole move, but in a real race everyone would hang you out for dry in this situation.
Also there was lots of room on the left to give him space.

Edit:
Many of those would not happen in a proper race, where you are in a equal car and have to stay some time behind and look where he is slow and what lines he takes.
If you just zoom by in a way faster car unexpected things can happen.
 
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Why did you make 2 new threads about the AI when there's already 9837385 around?
 
stb155
Yes they behave like B-Spec did in GT5

They only go fast when you are around them, if they are far ahead they fall asleep and if they are too far back they also give up.

What should he have done at 0:30 ? Spun right in front of him.
At 0:55 you had no business there, to far back, he had choice of hitting you our go in the barrier outside.

1:24 is a problem i mentioned before, they don't see you sometimes, but easy to avoid.
I would never be there outside, would overtake on inside.

1:46 pisses me off too, they do that often although you are clear ahed and they could easily avoid you.
Good thing is it usually is no problem as he hits the outside under acceleration (inside under braking is mean)
Last one i don't know, for a gentleman race its a..hole move, but in a real race everyone would hang you out for dry in this situation.
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0:30 I fishtailed a bit and would have recovered but he plowed into me without even touching the brakes or trying to change his line. I showed his instruments on that clip; you can see he slams into me and only then barely taps the brake...

0:55 I don't see how I was in the wrong. I stayed in my lane and he cut over on me. We both had plenty of room to go through that curve side-by-side.

As for the other questionable passes, the game gives me just a few laps to pass the entire grid, so If I'm not using an overpowered car, I sometimes have to make unrealistic passes to win.
 
gnorman
I've seen people post that they most enjoy hotlapping, so how much of a racing game is the Real Driving Simulator?
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It's mainly a racing game - the vast majority of A-Spec (traditionally the game's main "mode") is of course, races. That doesn't mean it's a good one though...

I've always wondered why you'd focus your game around something you execute so poorly
 
ildd
Why did you make 2 new threads about the AI when there's already 9837385 around?
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I didn't. This one is about the AI, the other one was about the rest of the racing experience to specifically not talk about the AI and other things that can be done in the racing to improve it, such as mechanical damage. If I had done just one thread then it would descend into a rant about the AI despite being about a broader topic.
 
Threads have been merged as your other one was just a continuation of this one.
 
stb155
Biggest problem is that they slow down if you are behind.

2nd biggest problem is that they are to slow in equal car on equal tires.

Many other problems people complain about (they brake so early, they always run in my back) are caused by how people react on the first 2 problems.
They take much slower cars, which causes the AI to slow down more (brake way to early and crawl around corners) and once you overtake them (and the "slowdown" gets canceled by it) they start bullying you and running in your back under braking because they are much much faster than you in your underpowered car.

I think PD just not expected people to do that.
If you take an only slightly slower car and only one step worse tires you get better races.
Still somewhat easy (as the whole career is) but at least not completely stupid.

Another problem is that they don't "see" you when they change line and bump in to your side.
..........
If they are in an equal car and not in "slow" mode they are not that bad.
They outbraked me on the inside when i took a wide line, they gave me room when i overtake on the outside, they make room when i overlap them.

So yes they are bad but i bet if PD would only fix the races* themself and disable the "AI slowdown" it would be much less noticeable and we could have pretty good races against them.

*races a bit longer, player starts more in the middle, closer matched opponents, random opponent start position (not always fastest first, slowest last)
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This is a brilliant post, sir!!!
Cannot sumurize it better!

And there is another question. How would be possible for you to win ... if you start almost last ... you are in a slightly slower car ... and there is aggressive AI all the way up to the win? Your impressive skills of course but ... how will PD implement it in the game if you have only 2 laps to overcome all this?
That's why I think that PD should implement qualifying for the more serious races - IB, IA and S. If you qualify first - ok, the AI will be more aggressive. If you plainly suck - ok, the AI will slow down or make mistakes, the lot.
All will be happy?
 
gnorman
Maybe it's using the same code from GT5 B-Spec where Bob's heat would rise near other cars and cool down when a gap appeared. That was the worst thing about B-spec.. The AI should be told to aim for a certain lap time and based on the skill of the AI Bob be able to stick to it or not.
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It's similar, but not as gradual. In GT5 battling with AI would slowly get tougher when you were close to them, as their heat increased.

In GT6 it's just on or off depending on position.
 
Everything I've experienced so far with the AI in GT6 suggests it has no spacial awareness that my car is anywhere near by. The AI cars drive their racing line with little to no deviation, regardless of where my car is. So what people call "aggressive" AI is actually just truly stupid AI.

The poor AI is more noticeable on some tracks than others because the programmed racing line for the AI at a given track has varying degrees of quality. The AI at Motegi is awful. The AI at Nurburgring GP isn't as bad.

A lot of the issues people have with the AI isn't really an AI issue. It is an issue with the decision made by PD to have such a huge disparity between PP values all within the same field. Some of the worst examples of these are in International B Class: Classic Supercar Festival, Historic Racing Car Cup, British Lightweights. They should make every single car in the field have the same PP level, whatever it may be. Period. The stupid rolling roadblocks in the only prevent you from having a good, competitive race. If the PP level is 600, every car in the field should be tuned to 600 PP.
 
PsuPepperoni
0:30 I fishtailed a bit and would have recovered but he plowed into me without even touching the brakes or trying to change his line. I showed his instruments on that clip; you can see he slams into me and only then barely taps the brake...

0:55 I don't see how I was in the wrong. I stayed in my lane and he cut over on me. We both had plenty of room to go through that curve side-by-side.

As for the other questionable passes, the game gives me just a few laps to pass the entire grid, so If I'm not using an overpowered car, I sometimes have to make unrealistic passes to win.
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0:55 I don't know how close to his limit he was, but if i drive that corner i have to cut to the apex to make the exit, if i would stay left i go in the wall, and for braking its also to late.
I would have stayed behind and overtook him left on the short straight before the next corner.

And in 0:30 you went from far outside to right in front of him @50degree angle in a sec.
Yes he could have braked earlier and go to the left.
Also you could have known that someone is coming and could have gone straight over the track and do a left 360 in the grass and rejoin instead of trying a recovery in the middle of the track.

However, my point is many players just don't respect them enough, they try moves they (hopefully) would not do online against real people.
Can you blame them for it ?
NO, GT teaches you to drive like a prick.
No penalties, no damage, no reward for "clean" laps and only those stupid "overtake one opponent in every corner to win" races and missions.
 
stb155
0:55 I don't know how close to his limit he was, but if i drive that corner i have to cut to the apex to make the exit, if i would stay left i go in the wall, and for braking its also to late.
I would have stayed behind and overtook him left on the short straight before the next corner.
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He cut me off going into the left-hander, so I cut right and was beside him at the exit. He had plenty of time to brake before the right-hander IMO, if he even needed to.
.
stb155
0:55 I don't know how close to his limit he was, but if i drive that corner i have to cut to the apex to make the exit, if i would stay left i go in the wall, and for braking its also to late.

I would have stayed behind and overtook him left on the short straight before the next corner.
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Ironically I wouldn't have overcooked the corner if I wasn't already afraid the NSX was going to ram me if I didn't brake late. And I was sideways as soon as my tire touched grass, and I didn't have time to do anything, recovery or otherwise, before he smashed into me.
 
By aggressive AI I mean AI that keeps you on your toes - just be there in the rear view mirror and that will benefit from your/mine mistakes.
 

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