Soltice in GT5 and Iracing

[Wuestenmaus]

I was at the used dealership yesterday and was surprised to see a Soltice there. I knew this car from Iracing very well, because it is the beginner's car there and you have to drive it a lot.

But I have to say that I was shocked how badly it is simulated in GT5. The Soltice in Iracing is a lame duck of course and so it is in GT5. But the FFB in Iracing is phenomenal there is so much response from the inside of the car and the road.
The model of the car is very nice in GT5 despite being a standard car though. It makes fun to watch it in replays. But the driving physics and the FFB are a shame, Iracing is 10 times better.

May it be the case that there is not only no cockpit for standard cars and fewer polygons but also a standard driving model? Is this why we cannot choose between standard and professional physics like we could in Prologue, because they now automatically choose standard physics model for standard cars and the professional physics model for premium cars?

 

[Organ-Donor]

Is this why we cannot choose between standard and professional physics like we could in Prologue, because they now automatically choose standard physics model for standard cars and the professional physics model for premium cars?

A few things. I'm at work right now so I can't be specific, but if you go to the options menu and go to the wheel section, you can select "simulation" setting, it's on an easy setting by default. Next make sure you turn OFF "Skid Recovery Force" AKA standard physics. Finally, turn off the driving aids you wish. This will help if you haven't already done so. And standard and premium cars run on the same physics engine, and drive the same.

 

[Wuestenmaus]

A few things. I'm at work right now so I can't be specific, but if you go to the options menu and go to the wheel section, you can select "simulation" setting, it's on an easy setting by default. Next make sure you turn OFF "Skid Recovery Force" AKA standard physics. Finally, turn off the driving aids you wish. This will help if you haven't already done so. And standard and premium cars run on the same physics engine, and drive the same.

Ok, but I know these things of course.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the driving feeling differentiates a lot more between premium cars than between standard cars. And the feeling of the Soltice is just bad and wrong in comparison to the one in Iracing.

 

[Greycap]

One of the games is a racing game and the other is a simulation also used by professionals. It's a bit like saying FSX sucks because the feedback isn't on the same level with Airbus training simulators.

Look at it this way. GT5 gives you 1000+ cars for, say, 5 years if you want to play it for that long while costing around $60. The cost for one car per one year is around $0.01 and goes down the longer you play. iRacing gives you 21 cars and costs $90 a year. The cost for one car per one year is around $4.5 - in other words, 450 times more expensive. Sounds like it has a very good reason to be quite a lot better to begin with.

And no, standard cars don't use standard physics. Every car uses the same physics modelling no matter if it's a premium LMP or a standard grocery getter. The physics selection in Prologue was probably to give people a choice when they were accustomed to the GT4 physics.

 

[MasterFocus]

Also keep in mind that the Solstice in GT5 is a concept car and in iRacing its the market version, so those are 2 completly different cars

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I was at the used dealership yesterday and was surprised to see a Soltice there. I knew this car from Iracing very well, because it is the beginner's car there and you have to drive it a lot.

But I have to say that I was shocked how badly it is simulated in GT5. The Soltice in Iracing is a lame duck of course and so it is in GT5. But the FFB in Iracing is phenomenal there is so much response from the inside of the car and the road.
The model of the car is very nice in GT5 despite being a standard car though. It makes fun to watch it in replays. But the driving physics and the FFB are a shame, Iracing is 10 times better.

May it be the case that there is not only no cockpit for standard cars and fewer polygons but also a standard driving model? Is this why we cannot choose between standard and professional physics like we could in Prologue, because they now automatically choose standard physics model for standard cars and the professional physics model for premium cars?

Personally I would not expect a console platformer, even of GT's reputation to have as good a physics model as Iracing.
With a thousand cars, attention to that kind of detail is bound to go lacking.

While many here are singing the praises of how great and "realistic" the physics are in GT5, I find it to be more or less a refined version of GT3 and generally, just less forgiving than GT4 or GT5P.
Whether that makes it "more realistic" is subject to each players opinion, I guess.
I would rate it as pretty good, but nothing special.

Considering the glaring list of other shortcomings in the game, the physics in GT5 are probably among the least.

 

[CoolColJ]

GT5 won't give you the bumpy stuff from the road that iRacing has, so don't confuse that with lack of FFB. But GT5 will give you other types of FFb, depending on the track, especially on the Mount Aso theme, curbs, bumps and oversteer/understeer effects etc

 

[Smoothherb]

I find it is very complimentary that we compare GT5 with IRacing but it also is self-evident that GT5 is loosing this comparison. You only have to look at the price difference like said before. I think GT5 is a Driving/Fun simulator and IRacing is a Racing one!

I always think about IRacing but it is just to expensive for a Game.

 

[shirakawaa]

And no, standard cars don't use standard physics. Every car uses the same physics modelling no matter if it's a premium LMP or a standard grocery getter. The physics selection in Prologue was probably to give people a choice when they were accustomed to the GT4 physics.

Standard cars use the same physics engine as Premium ones, but as far as I've seen (since most of the cars I'm interested in driving are Standards) their technical specifications are not as detailed as those of Premium cars, and they also carry over all the errors/inaccuracies that were in GT4.

For all cars, there's also the "wheel alignment problem": they all (bar a few exceptions) use standard (and wrong) values for toe and camber which promote understeer.

 

[Bigbazz]

Are you surprised that the physics arent spot on? GT5 have spent a lot of time in getting the feel of certain cars right, important ones and in most cases the premiums. The other cars are likely just "ballpark" area physics. iRacing have specifically focused on the car analysing it to reproduce the physics so obviously the difference will be shown.

The Solstice is a needle in a stack of 1000 cars, only around 200 of which have had the kind of attention they needed for a sim, and none of which will have had the same attention to detail in the physics as iRacing can do. Theres just too many cars for them to get every one perfect, iRacing only has 25 cars which have been released over 2 years.

 

[Menown]

Also keep in mind that the Solstice in GT5 is a concept car and in iRacing its the market version, so those are 2 completely different cars

THIS.

You aren't even comparing the same car. Within GT5 if you compare concept to production, you will notice thing change.

 

[marcelomorpheus]

Wuestenmaus!

Forget iRacing, rFactor, GTR2 and GTL, because the return of strength that we have these games are infinitely better than the GT5.

In these games we can change and adapt cited several items from the "control.ini" and solve our problems, unlike GT5.

But try to make a run at Nordschleife with the Shelby Cobra, for example, it will be fun.

Apologies for my bad English.

 

[Wuestenmaus]

THIS.

You aren't even comparing the same car. Within GT5 if you compare concept to production, you will notice thing change.

I don't have access to my PS3 at the moment, but I did not notice that the Soltice was a concept car. I do not believe though that this is a good explanation for the lifeless feeling the Soltice gives you in GT5.

It may be true that the physics model is the same for both, but than you have to call it the "driving model" or what ever you like. Just before I bought the Soltice, I was driving the Mercedes SLR and after that the Mercedes 300SL and it was pure joy to feel the completely different handling of the two cars through my G27.
So the contrast to the Soltice was very harsh and so I came to the conclusion, that standard cars just have some sort of generic, simplified "driving model".

 

[Wuestenmaus]

I find it is very complimentary that we compare GT5 with IRacing but it also is self-evident that GT5 is loosing this comparison. You only have to look at the price difference like said before. I think GT5 is a Driving/Fun simulator and IRacing is a Racing one!

I would say that this depiction is wrong. What would the distinction between driving and racing simulator be good for?
Yamauchi clearly stated, that if you are good at GT5, you will also be a good driver in real life. This is a very clear statement and it shows us what his ambitions are. And from that follows that we have to measure him by the highest standards possible.

 

[keitshi]

So the contrast to the Soltice was very harsh and so I came to the conclusion, that standard cars just have some sort of generic, simplified "driving model".

Id have to agree. The physics dont feel wrong on standards, they just dont portray as many specific characteristics of the car like premium cars do, excluding cars that are premium and standard.

That is pretty much logical. I dont expect pd to model all 1000 cars perfectly.

 

[CoolColJ]

Well you can confirm this by taking cars that have both a standard and premium version onto the track see how they feel

I haven't done that, but it should be interesting

 

[Stevisiov]

I would say that this depiction is wrong. What would the distinction between driving and racing simulator be good for?
Yamauchi clearly stated, that if you are good at GT5, you will also be a good driver in real life. This is a very clear statement and it shows us what his ambitions are. And from that follows that we have to measure him by the highest standards possible.

I think this is known to be true though, after all hasn't GTacademy shown us that good GT drivers have turned out to be good real life racing drivers?

 

[Sohvakettu]

I think this is known to be true though, after all hasn't GTacademy shown us that good GT drivers have turned out to be good real life racing drivers?

The winners have always had real life racing experience (even though at amateur level).

 

[GrahamTurismo]

I don't have access to my PS3 at the moment, but I did not notice that the Soltice was a concept car. I do not believe though that this is a good explanation for the lifeless feeling the Soltice gives you in GT5.

Yes the Solstice in GT5 is a Concept. It was a prize for getting all silver in S License in GT4. It handles extremely well IMO. It's because of driving the concept in GT4 that I bought the car once it entered production. (And if you click my "might" link in my sig you will see the cause for my love of the concept car to begin with. ) I was actually quite disappointed that the production version and/or it's sister the Saturn Sky were not added to the new game, but at least the concept is still there. The concept car has power closer to what the production GXP provided, so the acceleration would be different from the naturally aspirated Solstice... but the handling is still pretty accurate. PLEASE check your save file on your XMB and let me know what 'day' you found the Solstice on as I have been dying to find it. (Or, since you don't care for it... you could gift it to me. ) I will let you know if it's accurate or not. 👍

 

[keitshi]

Well you can confirm this by taking cars that have both a standard and premium version onto the track see how they feel

I haven't done that, but it should be interesting

I did that. They handle the same obviously. Why would they use different data for the standard and premium versions? The graphics make no difference in physics. The standard version will use the same handling from the premium. The problem is with cars that are only standard. Compare two similar cars, one premium, one that is standard and does not have a premium counterpart.

 

[Raitziger]

Solstice(opel GT) is not very good car in real life so i would not be surprised if FBB does not communicate very well.(in any game)

 

[StrokerAce]

Also, I play both games, but isnt the solstice in this game a Concept model?

 

[SavageEvil]

Guys need to stop making stuff up, GT5 has one physics model for all cars, the only things that change how the cars control are the driver aids, and whether you changed control from professional to simulation. There is no difference in standard or premium physics, that would make little sense as they are all cars and have to drive together on the same course, why would you give standard cars a different physics engine to run on? I'm doubtful that the PS3 could handle dual physics engines running in tandem while running everything else.

You might want to check the aids that are on your car, check that you are using tires that are the same too.

FFB serves it's purpose well, you'd be hard pressed to understand this, because you played a PC simulation RACING game. Street cars are no where near as stiffly set up as race cars, that is one difference in GT5 that they show with FFB feeling. All the race cars, give you immediate feeling through the wheel and road cars feel like you are playing in mashed potatoes. Naturally street/road cars are supposed to be comfort over all that feeling, GT5's FFB is set to relay the difference in street car and race car.
GT5 physics are incredibly detailed, PD designs simulations for some of the worlds best manufacturers for a reason you know Toyota, BMW, etc. GT5's physics are definitely dialed back to offer close enough simulation without making it only accessible to the hardcore. They had to strike a balance, seriously I wish that PD would allow full unadulterated mode and let those who wish to have their top of the line physics without the hand holding. I wish they would send a patch for that.

Granted some things about the GT5 FFB is a little weird, like it's very hard to decipher without sound if I am losing grip in a rear tire, but I can tell straightaway when it has none. All in all a great engine, FFB seem to be tied directly to suspension setup, works out well for me and my G25.

 

[shirakawaa]

[...]GT5's physics are definitely dialed back to offer close enough simulation without making it only accessible to the hardcore.[...]

Could you care to tell what aspects of the simulation would make the experience accessible only to hardcore players? In my experience, such choices (not striving to have the most realistic driving feel, but one which is "close enough") mostly affects experienced players who will immediately tell that something is not wrong in the way cars behave. The general public would instead generally not notice most of the nuances that separate a pretty close/accurate simulation to another one "which is close enough, but ok for the majority", line of thought which I personally find is intellectually insulting, by the way.

 

[NOS Waster]

Guys need to stop making stuff up, GT5 has one physics model for all cars, the only things that change how the cars control are the driver aids, and whether you changed control from professional to simulation. There is no difference in standard or premium physics, that would make little sense as they are all cars and have to drive together on the same course, why would you give standard cars a different physics engine to run on? I'm doubtful that the PS3 could handle dual physics engines running in tandem while running everything else.

You might want to check the aids that are on your car, check that you are using tires that are the same too.

FFB serves it's purpose well, you'd be hard pressed to understand this, because you played a PC simulation RACING game. Street cars are no where near as stiffly set up as race cars, that is one difference in GT5 that they show with FFB feeling. All the race cars, give you immediate feeling through the wheel and road cars feel like you are playing in mashed potatoes. Naturally street/road cars are supposed to be comfort over all that feeling, GT5's FFB is set to relay the difference in street car and race car.
GT5 physics are incredibly detailed, PD designs simulations for some of the worlds best manufacturers for a reason you know Toyota, BMW, etc. GT5's physics are definitely dialed back to offer close enough simulation without making it only accessible to the hardcore. They had to strike a balance, seriously I wish that PD would allow full unadulterated mode and let those who wish to have their top of the line physics without the hand holding. I wish they would send a patch for that.

Granted some things about the GT5 FFB is a little weird, like it's very hard to decipher without sound if I am losing grip in a rear tire, but I can tell straightaway when it has none. All in all a great engine, FFB seem to be tied directly to suspension setup, works out well for me and my G25.

Please observe the cars in iRacing before assuming all of the cars are racing cars.
The iRacing Solstice is the Z0K package that has sports tires and a sports suspension. Other changes are a rollcage and the required elements to make it eligible to race in the SCCA.
It handles VERY loosely on iRacing, but the model on GT5 is a concept.
Put the sport suspension, sport hard tires, and body stiffen on, and try it out. It may handle similarly to the iRacing one.

Take the NC miata, put a racing suspension, and body stiffen on it and suddenly you have a car equivalent to the iRacing miata cup car. That would be a better comparison.

Oh by the way, it's quite easy to understand why FFB has a purpose considering iRacing has amazing FFB.

Let's recap: Solstice in iRacing handles like a street car. Solstice in GT5 handles like a street car. Both have good FFB, but it seems like the GT5 FFB isn't quite as detailed, which is understandable because the PS3 is a limited resource.

 

[GT Motion]

I have driven just about every car available on iRacing and of course they pay more attention to force feedback.

That doesn't mean GT5 is wrong in what they do, it just means they don't go into the same detail.

iRacing only has 21 cars.

GT5 has 1000 cars.

If GT5 had only 21 cars I guarantee they could nail each one just as well or better than iRacing.

Don't be silly and compare these two because iRacing specifically spends extra time developing each car and track to add every extra detail. Again, that doesn't mean GT5 is "wrong" it just means iRacing adds a lot of extra fluff. With cars like the Solstice I am sure they got the "ballpark" handling correct, but no, they probably did not make sure the car turned to a T the same way it does in real life, but its close enough.

 

[alexpez]

physics are definitely dialed back to offer close enough simulation without making it only accessible to the hardcore.

Car simulations generally get easier to drive the more realistic they become...

 

[Bigbazz]

Some cars in GT5 are really well done. The Mclaren F1 drives almost exactly how people in the real world have described it, there are a few cars really well done.


But that is a big name car, the solstice is not a big name car, its a standard model hidden away in a big list of other cars, iRacing version is obviously going to be worlds apart as they spent time with this car alone, specifically focusing on it.


iRacing in earlier patches was not that realistic, the latest patch released this year has really come into its own, but in the passed (and still in some places) it was just as guilty as many of the others of being "more difficult than real life", the cars not being able to handle certain situations that in the real world would work fine.

Both iRacing and GT5 feel different, both of them do some things really well, and both have cars that are really well modelled, in this case its obvious that the iRacing solstice is well done and should not be compared to the GT5 concept version, standard model.


You want a good comparison of focus.

Drive the F10 in GT5, and then go drive it in Ferrari Virtual Academy (based on NetKar), the difference is massive and its obvious that GT5 was not able to properly analyse the car, nor properly adapt it to the physics model, where as the F10 in FVA is fantastic, it is in every way more realistic and more solid and impressive than the GT5 version. But FVA was a game/simulator made by an italian specifically for Ferrari, using all of the data from Ferrari and working in conjunction with them and their inhouse simulator, the game/sim was built around that 1 car, with a game engine that was built around open wheel racing.