Spain putting us all at risk?

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Danoff

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I heard a take on the spanish reaction to the terrorist bombing over there that I think is a little scary.

I was watching an interview with a spanish political figure and he started talking about how the terrorists had found a potent weapon in using terrorist attacks during an election.

Guess who's having a presidential election in November. Guess who lives in LA - one of the major terrorist targets.

So the flaky spanish voters made it more likely that I'll get killed by terrorists. Lovely.
 
That was the first thing I thought when I heard the unexpected results of Spain's election. It was immediately evident that Spain had been terrorized into voting the way Al Qaida wanted. I do believe that recent decisions by the people of Spain have been a setback and do, indeed, put the rest of the world at greater risk.
 
For some reason it just hadn't occured to me that they might try the same stunt here. I'm sure that it wouldn't sway our election. Well, it might sway it in the direction the terrorists don't want, but it makes perfect sense that they would try it based on Spain's reaction.
 
I don't think US citizens will blow eachother up over a presidential election. We're not that dumb. And we have other ways of getting what we want (:

As far as outside groups ... well they don't blow us up based on presidential elections either.
 
Originally posted by LoudMusic
I don't think US citizens will blow eachother up over a presidential election. We're not that dumb. And we have other ways of getting what we want (:

As far as outside groups ... well they don't blow us up based on presidential elections either.
I would love to agree with that, but when it comes to the intellegence level of most people here, I disagree. I would put it more along the lines of most people here would not be that stupid to blow themselves up. I think that works a little better.

Yes indeed, a blow job to the top of the ladder.

The outside groups that would terrorize this country would be doing it for both religous and historical reasons. . . When was the last time some dude blew himself up because McDonalds made his kid cry???
 
Great, we're going to have freedom fly, for those hot nights ! :dopey:

Is spain the new scapegoat for future terrorist attacks on the US?? So it'll be Spain's fault? If you're right about how terrorists see their reaction to the bombing, the only thing that would have changed for us is the timeline of the attacks, not the attacks themselves.(and well, you know when it'll happen at least, it's not random) And I thought that terrorists groups didn't care about our opinions, they just want to see us dead?


As I said in another thread, I hate terrorists. They are a shame to humanity and they entirely ruin any point they are trying to make with their actions. And everyone just adds to the vicious circle from there...
 
If you're right about how terrorists see their reaction to the bombing, the only thing that would have changed for us is the timeline of the attacks, not the attacks themselves

Their success in spain will encourage future attacks. If they see the results of their attacks as being "the US will destroy our organization with overwhelming force" maybe they won't do it anymore. We certainly cannot respond to terrorists with weakness, it only encourages more to follow in their footsteps.

Spain has encouraged terrorism with their weakness and the world will pay the price.
 
Actually, I don't think our level of risk has increased, even though I think Spain made a poor choice. I think the risk is still pretty high.

I'm not an expert on terrorism, unless you count Tom Clancy novels. But it seems to me that the level of motivation for another attack on US soil is just as high post Spain as it was pre Spain. Remember, we are 'the great Satan' --they're not interested in changing our policy or even our leadership. They just want us all dead.

So what did the events in Spain change? We have people, probably already in the US, intent on our destruction. After Spain, we still have people, probably already in the US, intent on our destruction. Nothing much has changed.


M
 
Originally posted by danoff
"the US will destroy our organization with overwhelming force" maybe they won't do it anymore.

How do you scare a kamikaze? Martyrdom is a great catalyst for some, and has a lot of appeal for terrorism. Also... how do you destroy an organization if you don't even know exactly where it is, and how big it is?
 
We were attempting to make the terrorists realize the consequences of their actions by attacking them in the middle east. We were trying to show them that they cannot succeed by blowing up our buildings... that we will only react with strength and resolve and that terrorism will only hurt their cause (which is to control us through fear, not kill us all).

Spain showed them that they could win. They could get what they wanted politically by blowing up innocent civilians.

I think that increases the terrorist's resolve and increases the danger in the US and around the world.

Edit:
How do you scare a kamikaze?

Get him to believe his death serves no purpose.
 
Originally posted by jpmontoya
how do you destroy an organization if you don't even know exactly where it is, and how big it is?

If the entire organization is hidden then you don't. But it is not. Thats where intelligence comes in. The only way to fight an organization like that is to find out who they are, and where they are. How far along the international intelligence community is, no one here, I am certain, can tell us.

Unless you have top secret clearence and sit next to Dubya while Tenet gives him the morning briefing, you really don't know what we know.


M
 
Originally posted by danoff
We were attempting to make the terrorists realize the consequences of their actions by attacking them in the middle east.

I don't think the majority of them will be pursuaded in that manner. Some, perhaps, but not most of them.

In order to have an effective fighting force, you need to have motivation, and capability. So far, what I see this administration focusing on is eroding capability --which is what I would do first. Eroding the motivation of a fanatic is very hard to do-- for them, the reward is in the struggle itself.

Get him to believe his death serves no purpose.

Again. I doubt anyone can change a fanatic's mind. They are not interested in this life, but the next. Drawing to him the consequences of his actions on this world is almost irrelevant: he is living for the next one.


M
 
Originally posted by danoff
We were attempting to make the terrorists realize the consequences of their actions by attacking them in the middle east. We were trying to show them that they cannot succeed by blowing up our buildings


Afghanistan: agreed (as the rest of the world, including Spain did) ...which bring us back again to the same issue: what does Iraq have to do with 9/11? We knew that Saddam's regime wasn't exactly a friend of Al Quaeda, and the only terrorism support link that is credible from there is in Israel.
 
which bring us back again to the same issue: what does Iraq have to do with 9/11?

I have already answered this question many times and no one has challenged my response. I'd like to refer you to some of the other threads about this subject specifically.

Edit: People have challenged whether my answer is truely Bush's reasoning, but they have not challenged the link itself.

I don't think the majority of them will be pursuaded in that manner. Some, perhaps, but not most of them.

For some it might be the determining factor - which is important. It's hard to quantify how many this is the case for. These people exist and represent a way for us to make ourselves safer.

Again. I doubt anyone can change a fanatic's mind.

Sure, religious convictions are a tough thing to fight. Luckily most people are more practical than that. Many of the suicide bombers are doing it to make a difference in our world, we can at least take that much away from them.


Edit: Removing even part of the motivation is crucial to combating terrorism. Spain's actions are counter productive to this and therefore make the likelyhood of a future terrorist attack higher. It would have been better had they not joined us in the first place rather than to join only to back at - effectively manipulated by terrorism. The results of that election disgrace not only the sacrifice of Spain's military, but the sacrifice of the innocent people on those trains.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Many of the suicide bombers are doing it to make a difference in our world, we can at least take that much away from them.

Are they? I know quite a few of them do it knowing that their family will be paid a chunk of change --that's not a bad motivator. But almost all of them die thinking they're doing god's work.

So unless a prominent Islamic clergyman declares suicide bombing will not let you into heaven, but instead will send you straight to hell, there isn't anything we can do to change this perception.

I mean, even in our own country we have religious nuts killing abortion doctors. What the heck could motivate those fruit loops?


M
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
I mean, even in our own country we have religious nuts killing abortion doctors. What the heck could motivate those fruit loops?


M
Christopher Reeves and Gene Hackman in their battle for fetuses. . . (sorry for being off topic, but I thought that would get a good laugh also).
 
I mean, even in our own country we have religious nuts killing abortion doctors. What the heck could motivate those fruit loops?

I agree, it's a tough problem.

One way to ensure that fewer religious nuts kills doctors is by assuring them that it won't make a difference in policy.

Same goes for suicide bombers.

You can't deny that the attack in Spain was calculated to affect the election outcome. What happens if they know it will not affect the election? Sure a few zealots would still blow themseleves up, but the organization of the terrorist groups has an agenda. Control through terror. Take the control away and they have no agenda.

The problem is that it's hard not to be terrorized (and therefor controlled) by these attacks. Even if you are terrorized, though, you don't have to be the pawn that spain opted to be.
 
I had just read this article ; http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040426074209990022
before coming here to read this, it seems that there is a conscience effort on the part of islamic fanatics to attack the Europeans to drive a wedge between them. divide and conquer, although they are delusional, they are also willing to blow themselves and all of us " non believers " to atoms..
Ahhhh Civilization....where's the old inquisition when you need it...:lol:
 
wheee, i just lost all of what I typed :irked:...here it is again...well, parts of it.
anyways, i've got a lot on my mind these days and I was looking for a place to sort some of my thoughts out - hopefully this is the right thread for this little bit. Also, sorry if it starts to lose coherence after a bit, it's been a tiring few days

So unless a prominent Islamic clergyman declares suicide bombing will not let you into heaven, but instead will send you straight to hell, there isn't anything we can do to change this perception.

Actually, that's true as far as my interpretation of my beliefs goes (I mean the going straight to hell bit)... I don't get how these people who are so fanatical and strict about their religions are so willing to commit a major sin - suicide is strictly forbidden no matter the reason for it. Martyrdom is when you get killed for the cause of your religion - not killing yourself for your religion. They're two very different things...

Frankly, I don't completely understand why they are attacking the west anyways - I mean, I got violent urges when I saw janet jackson bare her tit but... overly liberal media obviously shouldn't be the reason for it. US policies used to be great (some things are fudged up from the patriot act but the majority of people are still ok). What was the initial reason for these strikes against the US? My closest guess is the extreme devotion (i guess that's the right word I want to use) shown towards Isreal. Damn, I guess growing up out here changes your perspective on things doesn't it? I know, as far as my religion goes, I sometimes shouldn't be doing some of the things I do and hanging with some of the people I'm usually with but it can't be helped. I gotta do what needs to be done for stress from school or for boosting what little bits and pieces of a social life I have left.

Also, why the hell Spain? I thought they were a neutral party in this. If anyone needs a verbal slap to the face, it's France for banning muslim girls from wearing a scarf over their heads and denying them from practising their faith in public.
 
Here's the article from aol.com.

Militants in Europe Openly Call for Jihad, Rule of Islam

By PATRICK E. TYLER and DON VAN NATTA Jr., The New York Times

LUTON, England, April 24 — The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe, and is being answered, counterterrorism officials say.

In this former industrial town north of London, a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II have turned against their families' new home. They say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside No. 10 Downing Street.

They swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the Madrid train bombings as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe.

On Thursday evening, at a tennis center community hall in Slough, west of London, their leader, Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammad, spoke of his adherence to Osama bin Laden. If Europe fails to heed Mr. bin Laden's offer of a truce — provided that all foreign troops are withdrawn from Iraq in three months — Muslims will no longer be restrained from attacking the Western countries that play host to them, the sheik said.

"All Muslims of the West will be obliged," he said, to "become his sword" in a new battle. Europeans take heed, he added, saying, "It is foolish to fight people who want death — that is what they are looking for."

On working-class streets of old industrial towns like Crawley, Luton, Birmingham and Manchester, and in the Arab enclaves of Germany, France, Switzerland and other parts of Europe, intelligence officials say a fervor for militancy is intensifying and becoming more open.

In Hamburg, Dr. Mustafa Yoldas, the director of the Council of Islamic Communities, saw a correlation to the discord in Iraq. "This is a very dangerous situation at the moment," Dr. Yoldas said. "My impression is that Muslims have become more and more angry against the United States."

Hundreds of young Muslim men are answering the call of militant groups affiliated or aligned with Al Qaeda, intelligence and counterterrorism officials in the region say.

Even more worrying, said a senior counterterrorism official, is that the level of "chatter" — communications among people suspected of terrorism and their supporters — has markedly increased since Mr. bin Laden's warning to Europe this month. The spike in chatter has given rise to acute worries that planning for another strike in Europe is advanced.

"Iraq dramatically strengthened their recruitment efforts," one counterterrorism official said. He added that some mosques now display photos of American soldiers fighting in Iraq alongside bloody scenes of bombed out Iraqi neighborhoods. Detecting actual recruitments is almost impossible, he said, because it is typically done face to face.

And recruitment is paired with a compelling new strategy to bring the fight to Europe.

Members of Al Qaeda have "proven themselves to be extremely opportunistic, and they have decided to try to split the Western alliance," the official continued. "They are focusing their energies on attacking the big countries" — the United States, Britain and Spain — so as to "scare" the smaller states.

Some Muslim recruits are going to Iraq, counterterrorism officials in Europe say, but more are remaining home, possibly joining cells that could help with terror logistics or begin operations like the one that came to notice when the British police seized 1,200 pounds of ammonium nitrate, a key bomb ingredient, in late March, and arrested nine Pakistani-Britons, five of whom have been charged with trying to build a terrorist bomb.

Stoking that anger are some of the same fiery Islamic clerics who preached violence and martyrdom before the Sept. 11 attacks.

On Friday, Abu Hamza, the cleric accused of tutoring Richard Reid before he tried to blow up a Paris-to-Miami jetliner with explosives hidden in his shoe, urged a crowd of 200 outside his former Finsbury Park mosque to embrace death and the "culture of martyrdom."

Though the British home secretary, David Blunkett, has sought to strip Abu Hamza of his British citizenship and deport him, the legal battle has dragged on for years while Abu Hamza keeps calling down the wrath of God.

Also this week, over Mr. Blunkett's vigorous objection, a 35-year-old Algerian held under emergency laws passed after Sept. 11 was released from Belmarsh Prison. The man, identified only as "G," suffered from severe mental illness, his lawyers told a special immigration appeals panel, which let him out of prison and put him under house arrest.

Mr. Blunkett insisted that that should not be the final judgment on a man already found by one court "to be a threat to life and liberty."

In an interview on the BBC over the weekend, Mr. Blunkett advocated a stronger deportation policy, initially focused on 12 foreign terror suspects held without charge since the Sept. 11 attacks.

Despite tougher antiterrorism laws, the police, prosecutors and intelligence chiefs across Europe say they are struggling to contain the openly seditious speech of Islamic extremists, some of whom, they say, have been inciting young men to suicidal violence since the 1990's.

One chapter in Sheik Omar's lectures these days is "The Psyche of Muslims for Suicide Bombing."

The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they are often left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, when the suspect can keep inciting attacks.

That leaves the authorities to resort to less effective means, such as mouse-trapping Islamic radicals with immigration violations in hopes of making a deportation case stick. "In many countries, the laws are liberal and it's not easy," an official said.

At a mosque in Geneva, an imam recently exhorted his followers to "impose the will of Islam on the godless society of the West."

"It was quite virulent," said a senior official with knowledge of the sermon. "The imam was encouraging his followers to take over the godless society."

While such a sermon may be incitement, recruitment takes a more shadowy course, and is hard to detect, a senior antiterrorism official said. "Believers are appealed to in the mosques, but the real conversations take place in restaurants or cafes or private apartments," the official said.

While some clerics, like Abu Qatada — said to be the spiritual counselor of Mohamed Atta, who led the Sept. 11 hijacking team — remain in prison in Britain without charge, others like Sheik Omar, leader of a movement called Al Muhajiroun, carry on a robust ideological campaign.

"There is no case against me," Sheik Omar said in an interview. Referring to calls by members of Parliament that he be deported, he added, "but they are Jewish" and "they have been calling for that for years."

Among his ardent followers is Ishtiaq Alamgir, 24, who heads Al Muhajiroun in Luton and calls himself Sayful Islam, the sword of Islam. He says there are about 50 members here but exact numbers are secret.

Most days, he and a handful of his followers run a recruitment stand on Dunstable Road much to the chagrin of the Muslim elders of Luton.

Mainstream Muslims are outraged by the situation, saying the actions of a few are causing their communities to be singled out for surveillance and making the larger population distrustful of them.

Muhammad Sulaiman, a stalwart of the mainstream Central Mosque here, was penniless when he arrived from the Kashmiri frontier of Pakistan in 1956. He raised money to build the Central Mosque here and now leads a campaign to ban Al Muhajiroun radicals from the city's 10 mosques.

"This is show-off business," he says in accented English. "I don't want these kids in my mosque."

Other community leaders look to the government to do something, if only to help prevent the demonization of British Muslims, or "Islamophobia," as some here call it.

"I think these kids are being brainwashed by a few radical clerics," said Akhbar Dad Khan, another elder of the Central Mosque. He wants them prosecuted or deported. "We should be able to control this negativity," he said.

In Slough, Sheik Omar spent much of his time Thursday night regaling his young followers with the erotic delights of paradise — sweet kisses and the pleasures of bathing with scores of women — while he also preached the virtues of death in Islamic struggle as a ticket to paradise.

He spoke of terrorism as the new norm of cultural conflict, "the fashion of the 21st century," practiced as much by Tony Blair as by Al Qaeda.

"We may be caught up in the target as the people of Manhattan were," he told them.

And he warned Western leaders, "You may kill bin Laden, but the phenomenon, you cannot kill it — you cannot destroy it."

"Our Muslim brothers from abroad will come one day and conquer here and then we will live under Islam in dignity," he said.

Patrick E. Tyler reported from Luton, Slough and London and Don Van Natta Jr. from London. Souad Mekhennet contributed reporting from Germany.


04-26-04 07:09 EDT
 
Originally posted by danoff
So the flaky spanish voters made it more likely that I'll get killed by terrorists. Lovely.

statistically speaking you've got more chance of being abuducted my aliens than getting killed in a terrorist attack in the US...i wouldnt worry about it....the real danger engulfing the US and the west is fear, panic and paranoia...so intimidation works also in America as well as Europe...duke will be pleased.
 
statistically speaking you've got more chance of being abuducted my aliens than getting killed in a terrorist attack in the US...i wouldnt worry about it

What? You shouldn't downplay the dangers everyone faces due to terrorism. Sure they only take down an American symbol and kill 3000 people when they hijack a few planes, but that's not the full extent of their potential. They have the potential to wipe out an entire city or two given the right equipment.


the real danger engulfing the US and the west is fear, panic and paranoia...so intimidation works also in America as well as Europe...duke will be pleased.

That is the real danger. That's why its important for us to stay committed (ehem Spain).
 
Originally posted by emad
Frankly, I don't completely understand why they are attacking the west anyways -

Number one reason I see is a long standing policy of not condemning Israel's handling of Palestine. Most Americans are indifferent or oblivious to it. 90% of us couldn't point out where it is on a map. Fanatics and even many mainstream muslims think that because the West lacks the conviction to make Israel settle the problem, that somehow we support the occupation and ensuing violence. That because we won't stop Israel, we must hate all muslims. Its bullsh%t.

This of course, as I have pointed out many times in these forums is the same thing as me hating all muslims and all arabs because a few of them flew planes into our buildings. I'd like to think enlightened arab muslims don't think this way... but it appears there are as few of them out there as there are Americans who give a crap about the Israel/Palestine issue.. or even knows where those countries are.

I've read a number of other reasons. Our history of having a hostile attitude towards pesky dictators like Saddam and Omar. Our tendency to support unpopular regimes like royal family of Saudi Arabia because we desperately needed them as allies during the Cold War. The general non-compatibility between strict muslim beliefs and mainstream western culture. Some of that is justifiable, most of it is not. Certainly, not enough for me to buy blowing up innocent people over.

It is ignorance that has no place in civilized society, muslim or christian. Of course, now there is occupation of muslim countries to add to that list. I guess if you hate and demonize people long enough, you will eventually find a way to make your image of them come true. Like kicking a hornet's nest and them cursing the hornets for stinging you.


M
 
Originally posted by danoff
What? You shouldn't downplay the dangers everyone faces due to terrorism.

i know, and i wouldnt attempt to do so, i was just pointing out that its unlikely that you will be killed by an Al Qaeda bomb while living in LA...i dont suppose you are the only one that is a little nervous about a possible attempt...

worrying about it will only make things worse.
 
i know, and i wouldnt attempt to do so, i was just pointing out that its unlikely that you will be killed by an Al Qaeda bomb while living in LA...i dont suppose you are the only one that is a little nervous about a possible attempt...

worrying about it will only make things worse.

Well I'm not packing my bags if that's what you're saying. I was just trying to make things more concrete by pointing out that I personally feel more at risk.
 
I just heard on NPR yesterday that the Spain attackers have been possibly found in Spain. Also that they were a radical faction that has stated in the past that Spain was once Muslim land and they were going to take it back. That's not word for word but it's as close as I can recall.
 
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