Speed 12

[sesselpupser]

Well, many road cars are lighter than race cars. CoG isn't given anywhere in the game, so it's something we'll have to guess at. It just seems to me that race cars get a "grip bonus".

Also, if it was CoG, then the lateral G's road cars would be able to pull would vary wildly, but in GT, only the tire matters.

True, but it does make a difference. I've only noticed it in cars that I know to have a particularly high CoG, but take the Lancia Stratos and Murcielago LP 640 as examples; both are known to have their engines mounted quite high in their chassis, and they both exhibit some pretty wild lift-off oversteer; I know that's nothing to do with lateral grip but the CoG's have apparently been modelled, unless PD were just mimicking those particular handling traits instead of simulating them.

Also as most race cars have very low CoG's, even if they are heavier than their equivalent road car their weight would all be closer to the ground (for example, a dry sumped engine can be mounted lower in the chassis), which could explain their grip bonus. To suggest that a road car could have a lower CoG than a similarly sized race car is, well, strange!

Another thing not stated anywhere is the width of the tyre, of course, which puzzles me a bit because that makes a huge difference, too.

Of course, none of this really explains why the Speed 12 is giving this young man such problems, but I'd assume it's all due to a lack of downforce, personally.

 

[Exorcet]

True, but it does make a difference. I've only noticed it in cars that I know to have a particularly high CoG, but take the Lancia Stratos and Murcielago LP 640 as examples; both are known to have their engines mounted quite high in their chassis, and they both exhibit some pretty wild lift-off oversteer; I know that's nothing to do with lateral grip but the CoG's have apparently been modelled, unless PD were just mimicking those particular handling traits instead of simulating them.

Also as most race cars have very low CoG's, even if they are heavier than their equivalent road car their weight would all be closer to the ground (for example, a dry sumped engine can be mounted lower in the chassis), which could explain their grip bonus. To suggest that a road car could have a lower CoG than a similarly sized race car is, well, strange!

Another thing not stated anywhere is the width of the tyre, of course, which puzzles me a bit because that makes a huge difference, too.

Of course, none of this really explains why the Speed 12 is giving this young man such problems, but I'd assume it's all due to a lack of downforce, personally.

All fair enough.

I tend to think the Speed 12 is one of a handful cars that just got the short end of the stick model wise (physics, not graphics). The Saleen S7 is the most fabulous example. The road car has GT1 race car levels of downforce and the chassis is more race car than 95% of other road cars out there, but the rear end feels like it's on ice. That just can't be right. Likewise, the Speed 12 would be lucky to hit 60 in 5 seconds. Sure, it shouldn't be easy to launch, but it seems to lack the grip that makes it physically possible to reach "qucik" acceleration times off the line. GT has a few quirks like this that I'd like fixed.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

All fair enough.

I tend to think the Speed 12 is one of a handful cars that just got the short end of the stick model wise (physics, not graphics). The Saleen S7 is the most fabulous example. The road car has GT1 race car levels of downforce and the chassis is more race car than 95% of other road cars out there, but the rear end feels like it's on ice. That just can't be right. Likewise, the Speed 12 would be lucky to hit 60 in 5 seconds. Sure, it shouldn't be easy to launch, but it seems to lack the grip that makes it physically possible to reach "qucik" acceleration times off the line. GT has a few quirks like this that I'd like fixed.

That is my only disappointment with the car. It just burns so much tire from 0-80 MPH and barely moves anywhere.

 

[CivicInLake]

The car is just modeled wrong. Stupid understeer and extreme lack of sensitivity.

 

[CivicInLake]

I think the problem there is the fact that the Samba Bus has it's tiny, lightweight engine right at the back, but the Speed 12 has a huge, heavy engine in the front, and the inertia pushes the front wide, resulting in understeer.

See also: Mercedes SL.

This is what makes me the most pissed off. Inertia shouldnt push the front wide on racing soft tires let alone ANY tires for that matter. NO CAR in real life understeers like they do in this game, all of the physics are horribly wrong unless you tune a car perfectly, which in this case isnt possible, because it should be able to take that corner at at least 80 MPH and it cant even do it at 55 while the sambabus has no problems at 50.

 

[kjb]

I have not had any problems with the Speed 12. I haven't driven it a lot but I used the Speed 12 since it was in GT2 so I always drive it differently than some other cars to get the most out of it.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

There is NO WAY you can take the corners at indy in this car doing 300 km/hr and keeping it that way through the whole corner.

I need a goooood tune >.> normally I can tune a car fairly easy but this one is a bittch.

It wasn't difficult to put down those times, while maintaining a decent speed through the corners, and I'm not even close to the fastest person on GTP. The car isn't the problem.

 

[JJ72]

This is what makes me the most pissed off. Inertia shouldnt push the front wide on racing soft tires let alone ANY tires for that matter. NO CAR in real life understeers like they do in this game, all of the physics are horribly wrong unless you tune a car perfectly, which in this case isnt possible, because it should be able to take that corner at at least 80 MPH and it cant even do it at 55 while the sambabus has no problems at 50.

lol you seem to think you should dictate how fast a car should go.

what's your track driving experience?

 

[CivicInLake]

Any CAR should be able to corner at a higher speed then a Hippie Van.

And your times on indy aren't what Im talking about either I've gotten a bit under 50 a few times its just that it isnt nearly sensitive enough normally.

After hours of tinkering I ended up trying to raise spring rates to max and lower the dampers a bit with a few degrees of camber and it finally corners alot more sensitive and is oversteery when I give it throttle, probably the best I'm going to get. Able to corner about as well / maybe a bit worse then the Veyron finally.

At least the brakes on this thing are 20x better than that on the Veyron.

Painted my baby Phantomshwarz Pearleffekt Black and practicing.

 

[Famine]

First corner at top gear test track. Cant take it at over 90 km/hr without understeering off the road.

That's not really "documentary proof". That's another statement.

Im not having problems with oversteer its the understeer going into corners thats killing me.

That sounds relatively normal for a Speed 12. Imagine a Lotus Elise, but instead of a 1.8 litre 4-pot just ahead of the rear axle line you have a 7.7 litre V12 just ahead of the front axle line. It's just going to plough straight on particularly under braking when the weight distribution shifts even further to the front.

The car is just modeled wrong. Stupid understeer and extreme lack of sensitivity.

I don't see any basis for the conclusion that the car is modelled wrong. I'd expect extreme understeer due to the weight and weight distribution. I'd expect extreme understeer due to the weight, weight distribution, power and power delivery.

This isn't a refined, honed, Italian sportscar. It's a hog with a rocket. Remember, Peter Wheeler refused to sell the road car because it was fundamentally too dangerous - and the speed limit on our roads is 70mph (112km/h). If it's too dangerous to drive at just 70mph, why would you think it's any better at 140mph?

This is what makes me the most pissed off. Inertia shouldnt push the front wide on racing soft tires let alone ANY tires for that matter. NO CAR in real life understeers like they do in this game, all of the physics are horribly wrong unless you tune a car perfectly, which in this case isnt possible, because it should be able to take that corner at at least 80 MPH and it cant even do it at 55 while the sambabus has no problems at 50.

I don't get it. Are you saying understeer isn't possible on racing tyres? Even F1 cars understeer on slicks. Anything will understeer as soon as a front tyre runs out of grip - all you have to do is apply a bit too much braking force, or go into the corner a bit too fast or turn a bit too hard and you get understeer.

If you were addressing this complaint at GT4, I'd say you have a point, but I haven't seen any evidence of an exaggerated understeer model in GT5 (having driven a single direct equivalent of a car I've actually owned in reality for an actual comparison, I've not detected any flaws in the physics model at all). I wouldn't say an understeering game version of a car that, in reality, is known for uncooperative, agricultural handling - though neither of us have driven (and I would make sure I had life insurance before I did) - is an example of flawed physics.

Any CAR should be able to corner at a higher speed then a Hippie Van.

That'd rather depend. If the Typ2 is driven appropriately through the corner, it'll get there quicker than a hog that arrives there sideways, spins up the tyres, and leaves it sideways in a plume of bitumenous smoke. It'd surprise me if you couldn't get through the corner at a higher speed in the 12 if you drive it appropriately though, but not on any significant level.

You can take liberties with the Typ2. You cannot with the Cerbera Speed 12. Get it wrong and you're slow and dead.

 

[CivicInLake]

Been driving this thing for a while now and finally got a decent tune, have to brake a bit early but I've managed to be able to make it not understeer at such low speeds (YAY)

The car just wants to push the front tires instead of gripping with them under any sort of throttle or braking so coasting through corners at low speeds is a must, but Ive gotten it to be alot more sensitive and easy to drive/react with. Very fun car.

Just bought the t350c, griffith 500, and the older yellow tvr for my collection.

I now have.

Speed 12
Speed 6
Tuscan 6
T350C
Griffith 500

 

[YouichiHophop]

I don't see any basis for the conclusion that the car is modelled wrong. I'd expect extreme understeer due to the weight and weight distribution. I'd expect extreme understeer due to the weight, weight distribution, power and power delivery.

My brother was involved with running the original Speed 12 when it raced.

From that description of the handling, I'd say the modelling is spot-on.

The car was a pig from day one.

 

[chaosdd]

Guys, this the craziest car, coming from one of the craziest manufacturers. Nobody should expect it to be safe, predictable and easy to drive. Surele, it cannot be a superbly honed effort like a Scuderia or SLS.

You have to appreciate it for what it is and respect it while driving it.

 

[Stune]

This beast sounds like fun. Ive not yet seen it at the UCD. How much is it?

 

[DaMirt]

This beast sounds like fun. Ive not yet seen it at the UCD. How much is it?

about 250,000.00 cr

relatively cheap for suicide...

on a side note. Has anybody been able to exceed the 240mph top speed? I can't with fully tuned and max speed box.

 

[CivicInLake]

I've hit over 260 MPH drafting this baby, Definately has more in her. Almost 250 with no draft, wouldnt be surprised if it was completely possible, havent gotten quite to 400km/hr yet.

After tuning it it is very fun to drive you just have to brake for corners and coast through them.

 

[Danny_GT2]

It's a ****n crazy car that's why! I often remember wheel spinning it in GT4 in 4th gear, with TC on!!!

 

[CivicInLake]

with brand new racing softs drag racing bugattis i just launch in 3rd gear and i watch them go bye bye in my rear view.

brand new racing softs.

 

[MadMike'86]

The Speed 12 is one of my favourate cars in the game, its brutal, english, and fast as hell.

 

[CivicInLake]

Im loving it but literally just about kicked a ****ing hole in my wall because of how bad the reaction time is for steering.

The only way I can get it to actually drive like it seems it should is if I set max negative toe in the front.

 

[CivicInLake]

After looking up and finding and reading this

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r65/thenick100/TVR_Cerbera_Speed_12_07.jpg

"The turning circle is so bad it could take minutes to take a roundabout"

IF ANYONE can help me.

here is my tune

Ride Height -30/-10
Spring Rate 14/17
Dampers E 8/7
Dampers C 7/7
ARB 5/6

Camber 3.0/0.0
Toe -0.50/0.0

BUT

After watching the video earlier in the thread a few more times it cannot corner NEARLY that well in game. It just pushes the front tires, flooring it around the same corner he took on the top gear track, understeering, while you can clearly see him having troubles keeping the back end NOT from sliding out.

Very stupid when it has huge on-throttle understeer, wish the damn back end would just go out.