Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[Outspacer]

Which I hear the same remarks from some but maybe some of those current D players will become A players down the road if they stick with the game.

But you also see many new lower level players quit after a small number of races and could some of that be seeing the best they can finish is 10th if they beat every other D level player in the room?

Suggest though that they award class wins within mixed lobbies so even though they may not be racing for first overall they can still get 1st, fast lap and pole position awards within their respective class and its like you are talking about shooting the pope or something on here.

Doing what it takes to to retain players should be top priority if players want the game studio to keep supporting the online portion of the game.
Awarding players trophies and win stats that hurt absolutely no one but yet lets the low ranked player to be fulfilling the achievements within their personal game may be enough of an incentive to look past the broken penalty system (which we will not being into this discussion at all!) to continue to play sport mode which is a win for all.

Some people just automatically assume there will be future FIA events but if the numbers in Sport Mode do not justify the effort to the studio there obligation actually ends after this years finals.

Don't count chickens before they hatch, higher player numbers benefit everyone even if the reasons may be vastly different as to why they want to play.

I get where you're coming from with the idea of extra awards so I wouldn't liken it to shooting the pope... but I don't like it either It doesn't have much of a real-world parallel, since they are a different rank rather than in a different class of car.

Widening the allowed spread of SR and/or smaller grids seem to solve that problem better, giving them a true chance to win etc. (and for the case of a smaller grid, a greater chance to win, statistically). Of course there's arguments against those changes as well, but they seem like the least worst options to me. They have the advantage of being dynamic - scaling with the number of players available - so if there are plenty of players then they needn't affect the game much if at all.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

While it may require you to do some work, the data all seems to be there and I'm sure if you speak to Kudos he could help you refine the data to give you what you need. You then simply need to analyse it and then come to some sort of meaningful conclusion.

Kudo's offers no stats that would show the makeup of any of the daily lobbies to my knowledge must less every lobby for every race for each individual region. If they did have those stats I would gladly use them for a source.

To my knowledge CURRENTLY available stats for those numbers would probably only exist within PD's ifficial records and those records are not for public release or use, only for examining data for the studios use.

I am fine with considering Sven as an accurate source for a general picture into the what seems to be common or rare. Nowhere have I seen anyone claim to have exact figures.

If you need such detailed information to say that Sven is incorrect then be my guest to contact Kudo's to see if you can get that information compiled, I have no problem or reason to doubt Sven and his word myself.

I surely have not seen you provide any more or better information than what Sven has provided to discount his observations so until then your input into his data is important how exactly?

 

[Woodybobs]

"A few trophy hunters"? It's literally 99.9% of all players. That is an incredibly poor retention rate and businesses are always changing and evolving to retain their clients.

"A few trophy hunters"? It's literally 99.9% of all players. That is an incredibly poor retention rate and businesses are always changing and evolving to retain their clients.

I don't follow. What is 99% of all players?

 

[baldgye]

Kudo's offers no stats that would show the makeup of any of the daily lobbies to my knowledge must less every lobby for every race for each individual region.

Why do you need that?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Why do you need that?

To get a true figure on the ranking make up of the lobbies.
How else will you compile the numbers with what the percentage may be of mixed lobbies or single rank lobbies and the rarity or how common they may be from a factual statistical number without that information?

Widening the allowed spread of SR and/or smaller grids seem to solve that problem better, giving them a true chance to win etc. (and for the case of a smaller grid, a greater chance to win, statistically). Of course there's arguments against those changes as well,

How does Iracing handle the different license class issues in their races? Any body race there that knows?

Never mind I am thinking DR and not Sr in my response!

 

[baldgye]

To get a true figure on the ranking make up of the lobbies.
How else will you compile the numbers with what the percentage may be of mixed lobbies or single rank lobbies and the rarity or how common they may be from a factual statistical number without that information?

You would do it off the number of players who play sport mode and then their ranks?

 

[gregc]

I get where you're coming from with the idea of extra awards so I wouldn't liken it to shooting the pope... but I don't like it either It doesn't have much of a real-world parallel, since they are a different rank rather than in a different class of car.

Widening the allowed spread of SR and/or smaller grids seem to solve that problem better, giving them a true chance to win etc. (and for the case of a smaller grid, a greater chance to win, statistically). Of course there's arguments against those changes as well, but they seem like the least worst options to me. They have the advantage of being dynamic - scaling with the number of players available - so if there are plenty of players then they needn't affect the game much if at all.

[lurk mode off]
It's not particularly common but there are championships that do exactly that - Porsche Carrera Cup GB (for example) has Pro, Pro-Am and Am classes and they all score their own points and race for their own separate titles, all in identical cars.
[lurk mode back on]

Edit - actually the Ginetta GT4 Supercup does it too now I think of it, Pro & Am classes.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

You would do it off the number of players who play sport mode and then their ranks?

That information is already available just not by region I believe.

But that would do absolutely nothing to tell you whether they were in a lobby with 20 racers of the same rank, or the lobby was 10 of 1 rank or 10 of another, or even 4 or 5 different ranks all in the same race.

This is what the conversation concerning Sven and his observations is about. Without this detailed breakdown you are not trying to give "better or more accurate" data than what has already been provided from an above average sampling size by a single source through observation already.

 

[baldgye]

That information is already available just not by region I believe.

But that would do absolutely nothing to tell you whether they were in a lobby with 20 racers of the same rank, or the lobby was 10 of 1 rank or 10 of another, or even 4 or 5 different ranks all in the same race.

This is what the conversation concerning Sven and his observations is about. Without this detailed breakdown you are not trying to give "better or more accurate" data than what has already been provided from an above average sampling size by a single source through observation already.

For the sake of argument, I'll agree with you. But once again, that still doesn't change the definition of anecdotal.

 

[Outspacer]

How does Iracing handle the different license class issues in their races? Any body race there that knows?

Never mind I am thinking DR and not Sr in my response!

IIRC, a license level is effectively a combination of DR and SR, and I got the impression that races are for one license level only (but could well be wrong). I suppose that might mean that lower levels could have quite a high spread of SR...?

It's not particularly common but there are championships that do exactly that - Porsche Carrera Cup GB (for example) has Pro, Pro-Am and Am classes and they all score their own points and race for their own separate titles, all in identical cars.

Aren't the classes more about funding though? Anyway, certainly a close parallel - thanks for the info!

 

[VFOURMAX1]

For the sake of argument, I'll agree with you. But once again, that still doesn't change the definition of anecdotal.

May not change the definition of the word that was chosen but the meaning sure does not change the fact that to my knowledge there is no currently better source of information on the subject for the North American Region available to the public.
Svens information is no different than Kudo's but a snapshot obtained by one person by the data in the manner they have chosen to gather such information.
So until someone can provide a better source of information to prove that the information provided is incorrect ancedotal or the supporting that definition cannot be supported currently.
Who are you to to say whether Svens knowledge would be classed as research or personal accounts?
an·ec·do·tal
ˌanəkˈdōdl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

re·search
ˈrēˌsərCH,rəˈsərCH/
noun
noun: research; plural noun: researches
1.
the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.
"we are fighting meningitis by raising money for medical research"
synonyms: investigation, experimentation, testing, analysis, fact-finding, fieldwork, examination, scrutiny

 

[gregc]

Aren't the classes more about funding though? Anyway, certainly a close parallel - thanks for the info!

I can't back this up with anything concrete, but I don't believe so, I think it is based on pace.

Another example (that I can't believe I forgot) is Blancpain GT - there you have Pro, Pro-Am, Silver Cup and Am (!) all racing GT3's, and the classification is based on FIA driver rating.

 

[Sander 001]

I don't follow. What is 99% of all players?

99.9% of all GT Sport players haven’t been able to achieve the trophy. You do want some challenge in acquiring trophies but that number is hopeless and discouraging

 

[CoolJetta3]

Why doesn't PD allow regions to mix? I would like to race dailies against EU and Asia as well

 

[_ApexPredator]

Who are you to to say whether Svens knowledge would be classed as research or personal accounts?

Until he publishes an abstract, his methodology, a hypothesis, etc, etc, etc; it's fairly clear which it is.

 

[rono_thomas]

Until he publishes an abstract, his methodology, a hypothesis, etc, etc, etc; it's fairly clear which it is.

Neither here nor there how you would define Sven’s data, just detracts from the true disscussion.

 

[Woodybobs]

99.9% of all GT Sport players haven’t been able to achieve the trophy. You do want some challenge in acquiring trophies but that number is hopeless and discouraging

That's true. I'm a long way from getting any of those trophies. Awarding wins/pp/fl for best in class just provides another way of farming them by playing at off-peak times. It won't encourage people to continue playing the game for longer. Those who only want the trophies will get them and leave.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Neither here nor there how you would define Sven’s data, just detracts from the true disscussion.

I completely agree.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Until he publishes an abstract, his methodology, a hypothesis, etc, etc, etc; it's fairly clear which it is

Several different threads and probably hundreds of post within this forum that get pretty detailed concerning his day to day findings, results and even the conditions and changes and how those changes affected the races and race lobbies he was in.
Perhaps you would be better to search out what he has posted if you really want to know as it is not his job to lead you by the hand in your quest for the knowledge he has previously shared.

More clear when you are more aware of the facts and what has been posted than just jumping to conclusions.

 

[Shottah072]

How does Iracing handle the different license class issues in their races? Any body race there that knows?

In iRacing there is safety rating, this determines your licence class and wich race classes youre allowed to compete in. To compare with GT its like SR E = <N300, D = N400, C = Gr4, B= Gr.3, A = Gr2, S = Gr1, ofcourse the high ranked players can still play the lower classes.

In example for a Gr3 race you need to have at least SR B. There is no further matching or filtering of SR, from there on the matchmaking solely depends on DR. There is about 1-3 lobby's per time slot (also depends wich race class) on avarage wich extends to about 5-6 in prime time so overall the speed gaps/differences can still be pretty big in those lobby's.

If you want to race Gr2 you have to promote to SR A first. So the faster or more difficult a car is the more of a clean driver you need to be to be allowed to compete in it.

This sounds like a good system, and in my opinion it is... but not for the masses. The SR system in iRacing is way harsher and and it takes way longer to level/progress trough the ranks, ofcourse you can also drop back and lose the license of your favorite class. 90% of casuals would probably never get out of rookies (E) and allot of SR S guys would be unlikely to progress past C, its that harsh in comparison.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Several different threads and probably hundreds of post within this forum that get pretty detailed concerning his day to day findings, results and even the conditions and changes and how those changes affected the races and race lobbies he was in.
Perhaps you would be better to search out what he has posted if you really want to know as it is not his job to lead you by the hand in your quest for the knowledge he has previously shared.

More clear when you are more aware of the facts and what has been posted than just jumping to conclusions.

Mate, I'm not jumping to any conclusions.
Sven made a claim, it was contrary to my immediate experience last night, drastically so.
It was you who dismissed this claiming the difference in region.
I granted, but pointed out it's the same region as the OP's.
You questioned the relevance of this.
I explained how I believe it weakens the strength of your argument.

At no point have I discredited Sven, or his many posts on this forum; I often read them.

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

In iRacing there is safety rating, this determines your licence class and wich race classes youre allowed to compete in. To compare with GT its like SR E = <N300, D = N400, C = Gr4, B= Gr.3, A = Gr2, S = Gr1, ofcourse the high ranked players can still play the lower classes.

In example for a Gr3 race you need to have at least SR B. There is no further matching or filtering of SR, from there on the matchmaking solely depends on DR.

If you want to race Gr2 you have to promote to SR A first. So the faster or more difficult a car is the more of a clean driver you need to be to be allowed to compete in it.

This sounds like a good system, and in my opinion it is... but not for the masses. The SR system in iRacing is way harsher and and it takes way longer to level/progress trough the ranks, ofcourse you can also drop back and lose the license of your favorite class. 90% of casuals would probably never get out of rookies (E) and allot of SR S guys would be unlikely to progress past C, its that harsh in comparison.

Just goes to show that GTS is indeed on a reasonably rookie-friendly level. Definitely below the hardcore Sims and a little bit above Forza. Sadly we have some forces in this community who would like to turn GTS into Need For Speed.

 

[sturk0167]

I can vouch for Sven. I also race in the Americas region, and the races are often unbalanced. Of course it will be easier for someone in a region with more drivers to find a more balanced race. That's not really in question, is it?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I granted, but pointed out it's the same region as the OP's.
You questioned the relevance of this.
I explained how I believe it weakens the strength of your argument.

At no point have I discredited Sven, or his many posts on this forum; I often read them.

Until he publishes an abstract, his methodology, a hypothesis, etc, etc, etc; it's fairly clear which it is

So you do not believe that the matching issue being discussed is way beyond the claims of one D ranked racer based off to begin with?

And then a few daily races you entered last night weakens the claims that many lower ranked players within sport mode are subjected to unfairly ranked race lobbies?

Again you claim until he publishes his methods or hypothosis its fairly clear as to what it is as in meaning anecdotal.

Then when pointing out to you the information is published in many threads within this forum perhaps you should read what is published before posting your conclusion.

Then you say you do not discredit the man you have read many of his post.
You cannot be on multiple sides of the issue.
One of the words you used to describe what is required to validate Svens opinions as being "research rather than opinion" is below. Read that definition and then tell me in your own words if you have indeed followed a good bit of Svens delve into the wonders of sport mode if by your own choice of words how do you not call what he has compiled research?

hy·poth·e·sis
hīˈpäTHəsəs/
noun
noun: hypothesis; plural noun: hypotheses
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

 

[Outspacer]

I can't back this up with anything concrete, but I don't believe so, I think it is based on pace.

Another example (that I can't believe I forgot) is Blancpain GT - there you have Pro, Pro-Am, Silver Cup and Am (!) all racing GT3's, and the classification is based on FIA driver rating.

Man, those FIA category rules are lengthy! Most of the detailed criteria are success-based, but the headings are pro / am based (platinum: pro, gold: pro/am, silver: am, bronze: am). Of course there's a bit of a circular definition in there: fast drivers generally get paid, paid drivers are generally fast

 

[Oswald07]

If races were matched on just qualifying time alone people would sandbag their qualifying time to get matched against slower drivers and then drive off and win the race.
It has to be matched without taking time into account as so many people would play the system to get easy wins.

Best way to get to race against slower drivers is to sandbag you SR and really maximize you qualifying. With my current qualifying as an SR S I start 7th. SR A I was on pole and won the race. Track position is so important start 7th and you can be at the mercy of others mistakes. While I’m just trying to manage my own.

 

[O604]

I wonder if they ever combine regions? I've raced against people from Argentina. That's farther away than Japan where I'm at.

 

[CoolJetta3]

I wonder if they ever combine regions? I've raced against people from Argentina. That's farther away than Japan where I'm at.

Same here, living in Philadelphia, I'm closer to major cities in EU than a lot of S American cities. There should be some region mix to round out the lobbies and have a bigger pool of players

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

Same here, living in Philadelphia, I'm closer to major cities in EU than a lot of S American cities. There should be some region mix to round out the lobbies and have a bigger pool of players

And miss out on divebombing Brazilians? no way.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Man, those FIA category rules are lengthy! Most of the detailed criteria are success-based, but the headings are pro / am based (platinum: pro, gold: pro/am, silver: am, bronze: am).

Someone earlier in the thread had posted something about that gold, platinum and bronze racers being different ranked drivers racing in the same class as since the real life series was justifying the mixed lobbies as being fair in GTS as a result of that.
I glanced through some of it back then including the series rules and you are right it is a lot to cover.

But the one thing that I did see which totally debunked the different classes was fair in sport mode because of the different classes of racers in the same race in this series was because that each team was only allowed so many of each driver class in the team in the series so that translates to the racing teams on the grids were still equal all across the starting grid as far as class of racers went.

Did not try to explain it here because it would have ended up taking to much time and to much hassle and actually makes no difference in a video game anyway.
Comprehension and understanding of the term equal seems to be a foreign concept for many here so I figured that understanding how multiple level drivers for every team kept the field equal and balanced would be over to many heads to broach the subject!.