Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[Woodybobs]

Sorry to kinda derail the thread, but am I right in thinking some people are playing games just to get the trophies then move on to something else?

Whatever happened to playing a game you enjoy, and if you're good at it you'll acquire trophies. If you're not good you won't but that shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of the game.

I race because I love racing. I understand that in this genre, and racing IRL, that winners are a very select and small %.

You're telling me, that a game that pits you against other real people online, (and regardless of skill), you should just be able to get every trophy over time? Even with racing people on the same level as you may still result in zero wins, zero poles. This is racing.

The achievement is bettering yourself. Not a pixel "platinum" trophy.

Racing is racing, be it for first place or 17th.

Rant over.

I don't see the value in trophy hunting. Many people enjoy it though so fair enough. I suppose it's a bit like collecting anything else. It's fun for the people who like it. Not everyone plays GT because they're really into racing games. Many just like gaming and a variety of games.

 

[gapper59]

Suggest though that they award class wins within mixed lobbies so even though they may not be racing for first overall they can still get 1st, fast lap and pole position awards within their respective class and its like you are talking about shooting the pope or something on here.

Doing what it takes to to retain players should be top priority if players want the game studio to keep supporting the online portion of the game.

Great idea. I have no idea if it's possible for them to do that though

 

[Shottah072]

Sorry to kinda derail the thread, but am I right in thinking some people are playing games just to get the trophies then move on to something else?

Haha that is actually pretty common under a group of gamers. Its called trophy hunters. I couldnt care less about them, i played more games then i can count but never did i got a game platinum. But for a quite substantial part of gamers thats actually a big thing.

 

[azrilnazli]

I only bought PS4 just for GTS,and once I dwelled into PS4 communities, then I know about Platinum and a group of gamers that want Platinum for every games that they bought.

GT - Sport is an eSport game, a full grid at 3AM local time is much more precious than a trophy.

A well minded opponents is far more priceless than a trophy

A fight with 5 opponents that lasted to the end with clean race is a rare gem.

Thats is how I see GTS, climb up the rank and prove your worthy.

 

[Woodybobs]

Great idea. I have no idea if it's possible for them to do that though

Nobody knows if such an idea would have any effect on player numbers. Personally I doubt it. It's no different than seeing the results at the end. A person knows how they did against others in their class.

 

[twitcher]

*snip*

What has this game become, pick the meta car, pick the meta tune, check where you can cut the corners, go race... How's that for promising a level playing field. It's not about race craft anymore.

Umm....you just defined motor racing, period.

Nothing about racing has ever been about purposely picking a slow car and driving it with a sub-optimal tune.

In a category with more than one car, there will always be a meta car for any given circuit, in a given set of conditions. Unless the only difference between the cars is the skin, then their different characteristics will allow them to perform at different levels on different circuits.

If race teams could build a new car specific for each circuit they go to, they would. Since that’s not realistic, they build a car that perform as the best on average across all types of circuits in a season.

Because sport mode lets drivers pick a new car for each race, people will always gravitate towards the optimal car (just like they would in real life, if it was an option). Not everyone will, but a significant portion of drivers will (the higher the stakes, the more drivers will gravitate towards the meta).

Do you think the game would be better if PD started forcing certain drivers to use certain cars, to compensate for their driving ability?



As far as tuning in Sport Mode, I agree that was a dumb idea on PD’s part, as you then have to include people’s understanding and ability tune a fast car into your match-making metric, which makes it exponentially more complicated, and thus less likely to wind up with good matches being made.

As basic as the tuning in GTS is, gaining a full understanding of all the settings, and more importantly, how all of those settings fit together and compliment each other in making a “fast tune” (as opposed to just a “comfortable tune”), can take years for players to learn.

Sport mode should have some very limit tuning options so that players can adjust the way the car responds to their imputs, but these settings should be limited to ones that have minimal impact on car speed. Things like toe, caster, steering ratio, etc. When you get into things like Downforce, ride height, springs/dampers, and transmission settings, tuning knowledge can reduce lap times by several seconds per lap.



As far as cutting corners, I don’t really know what to say to this other than, “that’s racing in the 21st century”. Watch any real race, and find me one where they don’t discuss track limits at some point in the broadcast.

Other than a completely new approach to circuit design in a virtual realm, I don’t really know how PD goes about fixing the track limits issue, other than continuing what they’re doing in following be real life example of the officials constantly playing catch up to what the drivers are doing.

Due to the safety aspect of runnoff in real life racing, track limits is one area where I think real racing and virtual racing could and should diverge, and follow their own paths. There’s no need to have acres of paved runoff in a video game - it just causes problems.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I could be wrong but it seems like you have a few issues with overwatch?

A extremely popular fps game with millions of players that enjoy themselves ..

Nah, the game is awesome. You guys really need to stop being so defensive about Overwatch. They really broke ground on how they incentivize and retain a long term user base via these coddling tactics. Everyone in the industry should have taken note in how they were able to extract long term users from casual gamers via their loser trophies and other gimmicks.

 

[Mr616]

I don't see the value in trophy hunting. Many people enjoy it though so fair enough. I suppose it's a bit like collecting anything else. It's fun for the people who like it. Not everyone plays GT because they're really into racing games. Many just like gaming and a variety of games.

Haha that is actually pretty common under a group of gamers. Its called trophy hunters. I couldnt care less about them, i played more games then i can count but never did i got a game platinum. But for a quite substantial part of gamers thats actually a big thing.

Wow. I play games because I enjoy them regardless of how good I am, but I always want to improve at them and be as good as I can be. I couldn't even tell you my trophy count as I have no interest in them.

Even so, are trophy hunters playing games expecting to just platinum them because they invest time in them? Crikey.

Maybe I'm just showing my age lol.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Even so, are trophy hunters playing games expecting to just platinum them because they invest time in them? Crikey.

Yes, it's been a growing problem in game design. In other games you usually see it in how they gradually give you moves and power ups until eventually you can be strong enough to beat any boss. This really became prevalent after WoW and CoD where time invested directly correlated to gains in power regardless of skill.

Thankfully, games like Dark Souls are reversing this trend and I'm actually quite surprised that anyone would pick up any racing game and still have the notion that winning and trophies should be accessible over a specific amount of time.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Umm....you just defined motor racing, period.

Nothing about racing has ever been about purposely picking a slow car and driving it with a sub-optimal tune.

In a category with more than one car, there will always be a meta car for any given circuit, in a given set of conditions. Unless the only difference between the cars is the skin, then their different characteristics will allow them to perform at different levels on different circuits.

If race teams could build a new car specific for each circuit they go to, they would. Since that’s not realistic, they build a car that perform as the best on average across all types of circuits in a season.

Because sport mode lets drivers pick a new car for each race, people will always gravitate towards the optimal car (just like they would in real life, if it was an option). Not everyone will, but a significant portion of drivers will (the higher the stakes, the more drivers will gravitate towards the meta).

Do you think the game would be better if PD started forcing certain drivers to use certain cars, to compensate for their driving ability?



As far as tuning in Sport Mode, I agree that was a dumb idea on PD’s part, as you then have to include people’s understanding and ability tune a fast car into your match-making metric, which makes it exponentially more complicated, and thus less likely to wind up with good matches being made.

As basic as the tuning in GTS is, gaining a full understanding of all the settings, and more importantly, how all of those settings fit together and compliment each other in making a “fast tune” (as opposed to just a “comfortable tune”), can take years for players to learn.

Sport mode should have some very limit tuning options so that players can adjust the way the car responds to their imputs, but these settings should be limited to ones that have minimal impact on car speed. Things like toe, caster, steering ratio, etc. When you get into things like Downforce, ride height, springs/dampers, and transmission settings, tuning knowledge can reduce lap times by several seconds per lap.



As far as cutting corners, I don’t really know what to say to this other than, “that’s racing in the 21st century”. Watch any real race, and find me one where they don’t discuss track limits at some point in the broadcast.

Other than a completely new approach to circuit design in a virtual realm, I don’t really know how PD goes about fixing the track limits issue, other than continuing what they’re doing in following be real life example of the officials constantly playing catch up to what the drivers are doing.

Due to the safety aspect of runnoff in real life racing, track limits is one area where I think real racing and virtual racing could and should diverge, and follow their own paths. There’s no need to have acres of paved runoff in a video game - it just causes problems.

We're talking about a game here. Nothing prevents the game from making very simple, easily understandable rules for track limits, like always keep 2 wheels inside the white lines. No need for guess work or testing the limits. Both front or back wheels over the white line, warning or penalty. If PD wants to move the track limits, then make them visible at least. An aid to show actual track limits if they don't correspond to the lines on the track.

As for tuning, I like it better without it. At least I know I'm using the same tool when racing someone else in the same car and it's all about race craft instead of different settings. Sure there's still wheel vs controller, AT vs MT and whatever aids. Yet those are all pretty balanced in risk vs reward. A tune that goes 2 sec per lap faster is not. GR.1 is a mess with bop anyway so might as well add tuning. However GR.3 is pretty balanced (bar some exceptions), hopefully tuning stays out of it.

 

[Groundfish]

For my level at low B S
I think that the ‘meta’ is a concept that has limited merit.
For example Suzuka gr 4 I got a podium in the 86. Beat a lot of trophies.
Finished ahead of quite a few Veyrons at Seaside gr 4 in the Mercedes even got my 8th win.

So far I am able to drive the car I prefer and pay little attention to what others do.

 

[Woodybobs]

Wow. I play games because I enjoy them regardless of how good I am, but I always want to improve at them and be as good as I can be. I couldn't even tell you my trophy count as I have no interest in them.

Even so, are trophy hunters playing games expecting to just platinum them because they invest time in them? Crikey.

Maybe I'm just showing my age lol.

For some it's part of the enjoyment. Collecting trophies adds to the game. It might not be for us but people that get a kick out of collecting and completing have been around a lot longer than gaming.

 

[Sander 001]

Sorry to kinda derail the thread, but am I right in thinking some people are playing games just to get the trophies then move on to something else?

Whatever happened to playing a game you enjoy, and if you're good at it you'll acquire trophies. If you're not good you won't but that shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of the game.

I race because I love racing. I understand that in this genre, and racing IRL, that winners are a very select and small %.

You're telling me, that a game that pits you against other real people online, (and regardless of skill), you should just be able to get every trophy over time? Even with racing people on the same level as you may still result in zero wins, zero poles. This is racing.

The achievement is bettering yourself. Not a pixel "platinum" trophy.

Racing is racing, be it for first place or 17th.

Rant over.

The trophy issues are just a symptom of the larger problem of not enough players for proper matchmaking.

 

[kilesa4568]

I won a lot of races yesterday. In fact, every race I entered, I won and by huge margins. Gotta love career mode.

Went online for a single race and lost. Gotta hate online mode.

Sorry for the above. I tried to stay on topic but I'm not sure what the topic is any more.

 

[twitcher]

We're talking about a game here. Nothing prevents the game from making very simple, easily understandable rules for track limits, like always keep 2 wheels inside the white lines. No need for guess work or testing the limits. Both front or back wheels over the white line, warning or penalty. If PD wants to move the track limits, then make them visible at least. An aid to show actual track limits if they don't correspond to the lines on the track.

As for tuning, I like it better without it. At least I know I'm using the same tool when racing someone else in the same car and it's all about race craft instead of different settings. Sure there's still wheel vs controller, AT vs MT and whatever aids. Yet those are all pretty balanced in risk vs reward. A tune that goes 2 sec per lap faster is not. GR.1 is a mess with bop anyway so might as well add tuning. However GR.3 is pretty balanced (bar some exceptions), hopefully tuning stays out of it.

This is why I say video games should diverge from real life, because what you described doesn’t happen in real life.

Furthermore, this approach will cause issues for the group of people who want the game to be as realistic as possible. Take for example Circuit de La Sarthe. In real life, the real racing line goes 4 wheels beyond the white lines at multiple parts on the circuit, one of the most notable being the exit of the first chicane on the Mulsanne Straight.

If PD were to implement track limits like you suggest, there would be a whole group of people on the forums complaining that they can’t use the real life racing line.

So again, if PD would use things like walls, grass, and gravel to define track limits, people abusing track limits wouldn’t be an issue. If they continue to mimic real life and use paved runoff, track limits will always be an issue.


Just as an aside, when you are referring to “keeping 2 wheels inside the circuit,” are you picturing keeping 1/2 the car width inside the circuit, or literall just 2 wheels? And how much of the 2 wheels need to be inside the circuit? I only ask this because a lot of people talk about “2 wheels inside the circuit”, when 2 wheels inside the circuit can be stretched to basically the whole car, minus 1mm of tire, outside the circuit. What most people picture when they talk about “2 wheels inside the circuit” is actually more like “1/2 a car inside the circuit”.

 

[Groundfish]

My experience at levels D C and B so far is that for over 100 races never once have I been in a lobby for a daily where there were not at least 5-6 racers very close to my qual time.
This is at daily playtimes from say 5 AM to as late as 1030 11 at night.
Plus as far as I remember I have seen mixed dr lobbies in dailies even prime time since getting the game. Then again maybe good qual times have something to do with that.
No one here knows the PD matching algorithms.
It’s all theory.
Did PD release anything saying if you are a C you will only race C for example?
Anyone know? Because the letter means nothing compared to the time.
I’ve been in all B S lobby in 12th with my time with top 4 3 secs plus ahead of me.
Should I be wordsmithing too?

 

[Mr616]

The trophy issues are just a symptom of the larger problem of not enough players for proper matchmaking.

Just an example: You could have a lobby full of one type of DR(X) drivers only and you may still never, ever win a race, or get a pole. What happens if you are the slowest DR:X driver in that lobby? What then? What divine right does anybody have to win?

That's life I'm afraid.

Trophies should be left for single player only, so nobody gets a bruised E-go. Pun intended.

Nothing in life is equal. If you try to force that onto everybody, you end up with a huge cluster**** of chaos.

 

[Woodybobs]

The trophy issues are just a symptom of the larger problem of not enough players for proper matchmaking.

GTS is presumably one of the more popular sim racing games. The size of the player base is restricted by the overall popularity of the genre. I'm not sure which region you play in but IMO there are still enough playing for decent matchmaking for a few hours everyday (maybe more, I only know about the evenings). If you're playing elsewhere could you tell me if there are any times of the week that you can expect decent matchmaking.
Edit: I'm in Europe.

 

[Sander 001]

Nobody knows if such an idea would have any effect on player numbers. Personally I doubt it. It's no different than seeing the results at the end. A person knows how they did against others in their class.

Personally, I know it would increase player numbers. At least for myself!

At least we’d know it wouldn’t decrease player numbers, nobody could complain that they’re being matched up with drivers of similar skill.

 

[Woodybobs]

Personally, I know it would increase player numbers. At least for myself!

At least we’d know it wouldn’t decrease player numbers, nobody could complain that they’re being matched up with drivers of similar skill.

You don't play because your win count isn't increasing?

 

[Sander 001]

Just an example: You could have a lobby full of one type of DR(X) drivers only and you may still never, ever win a race, or get a pole. What happens if you are the slowest DR:X driver in that lobby? What then? What divine right does anybody have to win?

That's life I'm afraid.

Trophies should be left for single player only, so nobody gets a bruised E-go. Pun intended.

Nothing in life is equal. If you try to force that onto everybody, you end up with a huge cluster**** of chaos.

I never said anything about a right to win and certainly not a divine right.

I think you’ve completely misunderstood what I posted.

 

[Mr616]

I never said anything about a right to win and certainly not a divine right.

I think you’ve completely misunderstood what I posted.

Sorry, I thought you were saying matchmaking equally skilled drivers would bring back players who trophy hunt weren't you?

 

[Sander 001]

Sorry, I thought you were saying matchmaking equally skilled drivers would bring back players who trophy hunt weren't you?

I’m saying that matchmaking against people who are 4 seconds per lap faster than you is discouraging.

 

[Mr616]

I’m saying that matchmaking against people who are 4 seconds per lap faster than you is discouraging.

I'm DR:A and get matched with DR:A, S and A+ who can be 1 sec plus faster than me. Doesn't stop me from enjoying racing. I was DR:B for what seemed like forever but I play to race and see how I stack up against other real people.

If people find themselves matched with much faster opposition than themselves, their goal should be to beat those people in the lobby who are at/close to their own skill level, and to endeavour to get quicker.

If that discourages them, then they are playing the wrong game imo. Online you are racing real people and the outcome is not a given. If players see a trophy for most wins or most poles, they cannot assume they will eventually get those trophies over time. Where's the value in that if everybody and anybody can do it?

Sorry if I've still got the wrong end of the stick. The above is just my take on the trophies and how people expect matchmaking to work, thinking that by somehow having people closer to their skill will somehow get them the trophies they seek.

 

[Sander 001]

I'm DR:A and get matched with DR:A, S and A+ who can be 1 sec plus faster than me. Doesn't stop me from enjoying racing. I was DR:B for what seemed like forever but I play to race and see how I stack up against other real people.

If people find themselves matched with much faster opposition than themselves, their goal should be to beat those people in the lobby who are at/close to their own skill level, and to endeavour to get quicker.

If that discourages them, then they are playing the wrong game imo. Online you are racing real people and the outcome is not a given. If players see a trophy for most wins or most poles, they cannot assume they will eventually get those trophies over time. Where's the value in that if everybody and anybody can do it?

Sorry if I've still got the wrong end of the stick. The above is just my take on the trophies and how people expect matchmaking to work, thinking that by somehow having people closer to their skill will somehow get them the trophies they seek.

Exactly, “at their own skill level” whereas right now, B players are being matched with S players.

GT has been around for 20 years and it’s pretty snobbish to say that the game isn’t for newcomers, isn’t for people who don’t have the time to practice Xhrs per week.

 

[Mr616]

Exactly, “at their own skill level” whereas right now, B players are being matched with S players.

GT has been around for 20 years and it’s pretty snobbish to say that the game isn’t for newcomers, isn’t for people who don’t have the time to practice Xhrs per week.

It is for newcomers. It's for everybody. It is for people to enjoy racing against other people.

It's not for people who want to win a majority of the time. It's not for trophy hunters and for them to automatically assume the can achieve everything in the game.

e.g: There's a lobby with only DR:B SR:S. The fast DR:B drivers will front the grid a vast majority of the time. The slow DR:B will spend a majority of the time at the back. Only 1 person in a grid of 20 can win. The slowest DR:B will never win in that lobby.

Just look at the top splits in FIA. It's pretty much the same names up at the front. So should the slower DR:S and A+ just give up? Or maybe they enjoy racing and the challenge. Maybe they aim to beat the people in that lobby that are closest to their skill level, even if that means finishing 15th.

 

[rono_thomas]

e.g: There's a lobby with only DR:B SR:S. The fast DR:B drivers will front the grid a vast majority of the time. The slow DR:B will spend a majority of the time at the back. Only 1 person in a grid of 20 can win. The slowest DR:B will never win in that lobby.

So you disagree that A should be matched with A(A+), B with B, C with C, D with D?

 

[Sander 001]

It is for newcomers. It's for everybody. It is for people to enjoy racing against other people.

It's not for people who want to win a majority of the time. It's not for trophy hunters and for them to automatically assume the can achieve everything in the game.

e.g: There's a lobby with only DR:B SR:S. The fast DR:B drivers will front the grid a vast majority of the time. The slow DR:B will spend a majority of the time at the back. Only 1 person in a grid of 20 can win. The slowest DR:B will never win in that lobby.

Just look at the top splits in FIA. It's pretty much the same names up at the front. So should the slower DR:S and A+ just give up? Or maybe they enjoy racing and the challenge. Maybe they aim to beat the people in that lobby that are closest to their skill level, even if that means finishing 15th.

Who said anything about winning for a majority of the time? Who said anything about automatically assuming they can achieve everything in the game?

You really don’t understand that there’s a difference between not winning and never having had even the smallest hope of winning.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Exactly, “at their own skill level” whereas right now, B players are being matched with S players.

S just means they're a Star Player now - there are many Dr B S players - that doesn't mean the matchmaking is broken or PD failed to deliver on their promises.

GT has been around for 20 years and it’s pretty snobbish to say that the game isn’t for newcomers, isn’t for people who don’t have the time to practice Xhrs per week.

No one's saying that. They're just saying that trophies intentionally designed to be very hard to achieve, might be pretty hard to achieve.

BTW platform trophies that are linked to in-game achievements are nothing to do with the developer; they're a Certification Requirement set by the platforms and you have to have x amount realistically achievable by x% players, and y amount that are meant to be super, super hard to get - so if you have any issues with Trophies detracting from your enjoyment of the game it isn't really PD's problem; they wouldn't get the game through submission without them - just as an aside.

 

[twitcher]

S just means they're a Star Player now - there are many Dr B S players - that doesn't mean the matchmaking is broken or PD failed to deliver on their promises.

No one's saying that. They're just saying that trophies intentionally designed to be very hard to achieve, might be pretty hard to achieve.

BTW platform trophies that are linked to in-game achievements are nothing to do with the developer; they're a Certification Requirement set by the platforms and you have to have x amount realistically achievable by x% players, and y amount that are meant to be super, super hard to get - so if you have any issues with Trophies detracting from your enjoyment of the game it isn't really PD's problem; they wouldn't get the game through submission without them - just as an aside.

But I payed for the game, don’t I deserve all ten platinum trophies?