Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

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If races were matched on just qualifying time alone people would sandbag their qualifying time to get matched against slower drivers and then drive off and win the race.
It has to be matched without taking time into account as so many people would play the system to get easy wins.
 
Weeeellll, they have a system called DR. You might have noticed we've been talking about it! If one guy is S rated and the other is D (both after over a thousand races) then that should be an accurate enough representation of who to mix together and if thats nit possible, match their lap times!!

Weeeellll, if there are only 16 people online, you're gona be racing a mixture of people.
 
I don't agree.
The game sold over 5 million copies, 75% of which haven't touched Sport mode, the concept the game is supposedly based around. I'd call that a pretty massive failure on PD's part to either entice or guide players to the games core feature.
Moreover, after the game launched with what is essentially the game now, they patched in a career mode that doesn't have anything to do with the concept of the actual game.
So now you have a forced online game (because you still can't save offline), with a bolted on career mode that fails to replicate career modes of past games (which have always done a bad job of trying to mimic an actual racing drivers career) and then an online mode that bares basically no relation to anything else in the game. Further more this is 'locked' behind watching two idiotic YouTube videos that teach you nothing and instead waffle on about making yourself look good.

PD have made no attempt to try and push players towards Sport mode and in fact have given players not immediately enticed by it even more things and reasons not to bother. This, is there fundamental failure.

I'm not sure which bit you're disagreeing with? I said that the online portion of the game is reliant on a suitable number of players to make it work - you're not disagreeing with that, you're just blaming PD for the lack of them - which may or may not be true. The state of the offline portion of the game is irrelevant in this context. I know it's existence has long been a beef of yours, but despite it's faults and foibles for PD it's doubtless a key factor on their P&L account.

The glaring conclusion to much of this, is that online racing is a niche aspect of a niche genre - I personally don't blame PD for that. Lots of people on GTP have ideas of what they think would improve sport mode, but I think it's fair to say that mostly these are just suggestions for what would suite them better - and not what would entice other people to play. PD have me on the hook as a loyal customer, but I couldn't even tell you what would entice me into Sport mode...

And, lets say you did get more people into Sport mode, I stand by the other half of my point - you still need people of a certain quality level. There's enough complaining about standards on GTP to lead me to believe a large number of that small percentage of online players aren't much fun to race against anyway - enticing players whose idea of fun is to drift badly the wrong way around the Nordschleife in Free-Run lobbies, or the kind of lobby players that think being in a safety car means they get to ram you off the track if you pass them during Free-Run isn't going to ANYONE any favours.
 
If races were matched on just qualifying time alone people would sandbag their qualifying time to get matched against slower drivers and then drive off and win the race.
It has to be matched without taking time into account as so many people would play the system to get easy wins.

That can be handled as to race in an online you HAVE TO qualify. If ANY RACE LAP IS FASTER THAN A RACERS QUALIFYING LAP THEN THAT TIME WILL BE THE NEW qualifying time for further races on that track during the time span such race is the active race in the what is now weekly races.

So yes you may get a race or two to sandbag but your faster race lap times to win will make it harder for future races. All depends on whether you actually want matched lobbies or not whether you support such matching within the game or not.
 
But you dont get to race with faster people. You might share the same track with them but never the same part on the same lap. By the end of lap 1 someone of my abillity and rank is usually 10 seconds down already. Its not about learning and improving, im pretty sure ive already pointed out im at my peak and nothing will ever improve that. Sugar coat it as much as you want, the system IS broken and matching a player against someone who is 5 seconds a lap faster is just stupid.
Well like I said this is my opinion, of course it’s suboptimal in terms of wheel 2 wheel racing, but the System can’t match u if there are no drivers at the same time equal to your Rank/ Pace . If there were and it still wouldn’t match you properly, than i‘d Agree.

Otherwise take my advice. I‘m quite sure you haven’t reached your peak ;)
 
The state of the offline portion of the game is irrelevant in this context. I know it's existence has long been a beef of yours,
I guess that's fair, though, for the record I've played and loved all of the GT games bar 2. I just want PD to focus on this games core and name-sake, otherwise it's just a GT game pretending to be something else.

P&L account
Not familiar with this term? :p


The glaring conclusion to much of this, is that online racing is a niche aspect of a niche genre - I personally don't blame PD for that. Lots of people on GTP have ideas of what they think would improve sport mode, but I think it's fair to say that mostly these are just suggestions for what would suite them better - and not what would entice other people to play. PD have me on the hook as a loyal customer, but I couldn't even tell you what would entice me into Sport mode...
This is what I don't agree with. I fundamentally don't see why online needs to be something so disconnected to the offline content (hue).
All that should get you into Sport mode is the chance to have good racing. The fact it's online isn't really that important.
 
That can be handled as to race in an online you HAVE TO qualify. If ANY RACE LAP IS FASTER THAN A RACERS QUALIFYING LAP THEN THAT TIME WILL BE THE NEW qualifying time for further races on that track during the time span such race is the active race in the what is now weekly races.

So yes you may get a race or two to sandbag but your faster race lap times to win will make it harder for future races. All depends on whether you actually want matched lobbies or not whether you support such matching within the game or not.

Agreed that idea could work,

I was just trying to point out why setting grids with quallifying lap times has its own problems also.
The reality is what ever system they use some people will try to find a way to exploit it to their advantage.
 
https://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/drivers-by/driver-rating

Looking at the combined DR/SR table there's almost 5x more DR D drivers at SR B than S. If pace is the most important thing for you matchmaking wise, I'm afraid you've just got to either improve or reduce your SR. Also the only way a D driver matches with any A's at all is usually in the 80-89 SR lobby which should just be merged into the 90+ one to avoid confusion.

There just aren't that many 'slow' drivers who are also clean enough to stay within track limits and crash into others.

If ANY RACE LAP IS FASTER THAN A RACERS QUALIFYING LAP THEN THAT TIME WILL BE THE NEW qualifying time

Then you just get people who's fastest lap was achieved by slipstream being out of position pace wise and causing more accidents and frustration

im at my peak and nothing will ever improve that.

This is actually the biggest issue the 'slow and average' drivers have imho, much more than matchmaking. If you think you've reached a 'peak' whilst being over 5 seconds a lap slower on a normal lap then you've mentally given up already. I wouldn't say 'lazy' because I saw someone get grief for that a few weeks ago, but he wasn't far off.
 
People seem to forget that GTS is a competitive game should one opt to really get into it. Sport Mode is a ranked ladder, an entry level competition in preparation for the ultimate showdown covering a multitude of disciplines (FIA races). It is no wonder that people who for whatever reason choose to not seek further development are therefore stuck in a limbo, colloquially known as "ELO hell". I mean this whole sequacious scapegoat argument of "peaking" at a fundamentally trivial level can easily be eviscerated by a direct comparison to a morbidly obese person who vehemently denies any responsibility and/or projects his dire state onto malformed genetics and what not. The cure is called exercise.
 
That is true if the faster person is still in the same basic level and the slower driver can actually follow the faster guy but the slower guy learns nothing when the fast guy is 10 seconds ahead and the slow guy never sees him.

I have always been one that DR ranking means nothing actually on the track but rather a racers lap time or race pace is what needs to be matched closely for good online races for ALL the racers.

SR is important as to place racers that race the same incident or contact wise in the same lobby but in reality what a persons DR ranking may be as far as matching making is really irrelevant and only an ego deal as DR rankings fluctuate as much as the SR rankings do.

If DR is supposed to represent a racers racecraft or speed levels then once you reach a certain level you should NEVER regress below that level.

If you are a DR A racer today then you are still a DR A tomorrow even though you may have had a bad few races yesterday. Now DR really means squat with all the resets both by circumstance and those that do so intentionally.

Still does not change the fact that match making in the mid ranks sucks in a lot of instances and has for a long time.
Absolutely correct. The slower Guy won’t learn if the faster Guy destroys him by 10Seconds. But look, @Lebowski mentioned his laptime around Bathurst is 2:06. So it’s 3 Seconds in average and not 10, over a lap.
On the rest you said about the Dr thing I fully agree and share the exact same opinion 100%. Very well spoken true words I like that.

And the Matchmaking can only work properly if the Pool is available. But I agree it sucks, but not because it doesn’t work, it simply seems it hasn’t the Material to work with properly.
 
This is actually the biggest issue the 'slow and average' drivers have imho, much more than matchmaking. If you think you've reached a 'peak' whilst being over 5 seconds a lap slower on a normal lap then you've mentally given up already. I wouldn't say 'lazy' because I saw someone get grief for that a few weeks ago, but he wasn't far off.

In order to be able to determine the fundamental cause, you have to risk being offensive.
 
The game doesn’t use qualifying time as one of the match making parameters, it is only used allocate your position on the grid once the match is made (Daily races).

SR seems to be the primary focus of match making, It looks to try fill the room with similar DR players, but when there are not enough it will will move down a DR rank rather than pick from a lower SR rank.

I think one way you will improve DR matching in the current environment is to reduce the number of available races per hour, to try and make the player pool bigger for each time slot.

The other is to reduce the number of players required to start a race.

I also think that making those changes would bring uproar to GT Planet!

I guess the focus could be switched to DR and spread the safety rating, which also results in uproar around these parts :lol:
 
What i can't understand is how it is still allowed to happen after so many updates.

I think that makes it quite clear this is how PD intends for the system to work, then.

The game should match drivers equally. D with D, B with B and so forth. A D-S driver should only ever be matched with a grid of other D-S drivers as should A-S drivers only be mixed with A-S drivers and the same for every other combo too. Seriously, how hard can i be to implement a fair system?! It totally puts me off racing when you know you cant make any progress.

It should — and in fact, that’s how Sport Mode was/is advertised. But it doesn’t. For whatever reason, there’s a large preference for the game to populate lobbies based on SR and seemingly no (or little) consideration for DR.

Part of this is likely due to the number of players just not touching Sport Mode. But it’s exacerbated by PD’s algorithms.

You should relax and accept the fact you aren't the fastest.
I've spent several evenings as a B-S driver racing A+'s and S's. If you're not the fastest you have to learn to accept that and pick your battles.

That’s odd advice, given one of the major selling points of GTS was that it would do the (fair, supposedly) picking for you.

Populating a room with 20 racers spread across over a dozen seconds on their qualifying lap alone, for a four-lap race that might last 15 minutes, doesn’t produce close or exciting racing.

It’s a shame, because when I have been paired off with genuinely similar racers in both ratings, it’s often resulted in the sorts of races that have me repeating “just one more race”. But it’s a bit of a crap-shoot to be honest, and there’s a lot of little aspects of Sport Mode that I think make it unappealing to the majority of the user base (which, judging by trophy percentages, it is):
  • Piddly pay-outs: if it's the most important mode of the game, which is what we've been told a few times — specifically about the name of the game — it shouldn't have the worst pay-outs.
  • Inconsistent match-making: I had a race yesterday where I qualified fifth, and thanks to a very consistent race and some accidents up ahead, I won. I managed to improve my qualifying time by 0.25 between rounds — and was put in a lobby with the fastest person 1.5 seconds faster than me, and I qualified down in 12th.
  • The dire lack of races. It's quite honestly mind-boggling that PD believes three races (not counting the FIA events) is enough, and it's doubly bad now that it's a weekly selection. If casuals don't like the selection, they won't touch the mode for an entire week. I didn't bother with them last week because none interested me, either.
This is actually the biggest issue the 'slow and average' drivers have imho, much more than matchmaking. If you think you've reached a 'peak' whilst being over 5 seconds a lap slower on a normal lap then you've mentally given up already. I wouldn't say 'lazy' because I saw someone get grief for that a few weeks ago, but he wasn't far off.

It tends to be the aliens that think other players just aren't putting in enough effort when they talk of not being fast enough. Some people will simply never be able to match the reaction times and hand/eye coordination of others. Hell, I know I'm not as fast in racing games as I was over a decade ago, when I managed to win a province-wide competition in GT4.

There's also the small matter that these are still, at the end of the day, video games. A balance between fun and work ("git gud") is necessary — and admittedly, everyone will find the point between the two to be different. But this is a game where the main USP was arguably "race against people of a similar skill level to you"; if that's not working, that's not the players' faults.
 
https://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/drivers-by/driver-rating

Looking at the combined DR/SR table there's almost 5x more DR D drivers at SR B than S. If pace is the most important thing for you matchmaking wise, I'm afraid you've just got to either improve or reduce your SR. Also the only way a D driver matches with any A's at all is usually in the 80-89 SR lobby which should just be merged into the 90+ one to avoid confusion.

There just aren't that many 'slow' drivers who are also clean enough to stay within track limits and crash into others.



Then you just get people who's fastest lap was achieved by slipstream being out of position pace wise and causing more accidents and frustration



This is actually the biggest issue the 'slow and average' drivers have imho, much more than matchmaking. If you think you've reached a 'peak' whilst being over 5 seconds a lap slower on a normal lap then you've mentally given up already. I wouldn't say 'lazy' because I saw someone get grief for that a few weeks ago, but he wasn't far off.

Sure, but is that pool including all D drivers ever? Or is it only recently active, etc? I think it's worth pointing out that the analysis of the larger D group could be missing a critical point. Any comparison should also include the likelihood that the higher you go up the ranks the more active the drivers will be. That pool of 5x more D drivers likely contains a lot of players that only played a handful of times and moved on. So in actual Sport mode races I think the number of D rated drivers participating is likely going to be much lower, at least in comparison to how large the overall D group is. I don't disagree with some of the points being made, but just pointing this out as the larger number of D drivers is likely misleading for the reasons stated above.
 
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That’s odd advice, given one of the major selling points of GTS was that it would do the (fair, supposedly) picking for you.

I've found, that it does do a fairly decent job of that. However, the rating system is handicapped.
Firstly it uses two metrics, then you have a small and dwindling player base/pool and thirdly that small pool of players is then spread over 3 races.
So if you happen to have an odd combination (D-S seems to be fairly odd), the game is going to struggle to match you with people.
In my opinion, as a player you either have to accept this or move on.

The only actual solution (as I can see) is that PD attract more of the player base into Sport mode and get the player base/pool up. The more players the more populated all types of races at all levels will be.
 
The reality is what ever system they use some people will try to find a way to exploit it to their advantage

You are right that is why the game needs to be designed in this case to adjust to the "sandbagged" times and constantly update using the best information the game has which would be faster race lap times.

Then you just get people who's fastest lap was achieved by slipstream being out of position pace wise and causing more accidents and frustration

The difference in a persons slipstreamed times will still be a much closer match than what is currently being employed.

This is actually the biggest issue the 'slow and average' drivers have imho, much more than matchmaking. If you think you've reached a 'peak' whilst being over 5 seconds a lap slower on a normal lap then you've mentally given up already.

This again comes down many times to rank of importance. Some do not have the time to dedicate, some have personal "track limits" they may adhere to which may affect overall lap times and then others find a pace where they are having fun and going fast more in an endurance drivers pace but not feeling stressed about wrecking every corner.

So again not everyone wants to be the fastest of the fast but does not mean they do not enjoy racing against people that run the same pace as them.

Also some tracks I do better on than others, I may race Suzuka at an average low A ranked racers level pace but at Brands Hatch may be at an average pace of many upper level C ranked racers. Does that mean there is any reason that I cannot enjoy racing on both circuits with racers that run at the same level on that circuit as I do?

People seem to forget that GTS is a competitive game should one opt to really get into it. Sport Mode is a ranked ladder,

And as a ladder system a racer should be racing against racers of the same pace not have racers on one end of the lobby 3 seconds a lap faster and the other end have racers that are 3 seconds a lap slower.

With that type of racing difference might as well group GR1. GR3 and GR4 cars in the same races as apparently the speed or pace of the on track performance is not relevant to how the races are matched anyway.
 
I only trust myself. I thought the same when I started playing this game. I was wrong and you are too

Don't judge everyone by your own (high) standards! Some are just naturally crap! I have a muscle wasting disability that leaves me with little to no muscle memory. I can't use a wheel for example. Sometimes I can't even swallow food. I'm at my limit, trust me.
 
The issue here is that in each SR bracket there is not the always the correct number of people to fill the lobby. PD's solution to this is to add players from the bracket below to fill the lobby. Currently when they run out of players in a bracket to fill the lobby they fill the rest of the lobby with the players that have the highest DR, causing D rated players to be matched with A+ rated players (who are in the lower SR bracket). This system is shown in the upper image.

This is my proposal to fix the problem. When they run out of players in a bracket to fill a lobby it should start by taking players from the same end that it finished at. So when the 90+ bracket runs out of players the next bracket should start by adding the lowest DR players to the unfilled lobby.
This is shown in the lower image.

upload_2018-8-17_15-26-15.png
 
The issue here is that in each SR bracket there is not the always the correct number of people to fill the lobby. PD's solution to this is to add players from the bracket below to fill the lobby. Currently when they run out of players in a bracket to fill the lobby they fill the rest of the lobby with the players that have the highest DR, causing D rated players to be matched with A+ rated players (who are in the lower SR bracket). This system is shown in the upper image.

This is my proposal to fix the problem. When they run out of players in a bracket to fill a lobby it should start by taking players from the same end that it finished at. So when the 90+ bracket runs out of players the next bracket should start by adding the lowest DR players to the unfilled lobby.
This is shown in the lower image.

View attachment 759976

A better solution would be to simply increase the SR amplitude from 0-99 to 0-999, while proportionially maintaining the ranks. This prevents big SR spikes and smooths out the curve. Think about it, the SR rating is based on the premise of clean racing. But clean racing cannot be determined by a handful of races, its a trait that inherently emerges from continuous and long-term effort of sportsmanship and thus should be treated as one.
 
I'm also DRC/SRS. Matched almost exclusively with higher DR drivers. Often nowhere near my qualifying time. Around half the time there's an A+ driver up top. And A and B driver behind me. Been like this for months.

If I'm lucky, I have a clean race and keep position. Gain no DR or SR (already max). Mostly I'm not lucky.

The only incentive I have to race in Sports Mode is experience. I've played GT enough to know that if I keep at it, I will improve. Eventually.

So it's not racing. It's training. I guess.
 
Don't judge everyone by your own (high) standards! Some are just naturally crap! I have a muscle wasting disability that leaves me with little to no muscle memory. I can't use a wheel for example. Sometimes I can't even swallow food. I'm at my limit, trust me.
Aah ok, well that’s a whole other story. I apologize although i didn’t knew about your disability before. If you would have pointed it out earlier... but ok. Misleading information leading to unnecessary discussions. Anyway all good
 
The issue here is that in each SR bracket there is not the always the correct number of people to fill the lobby. PD's solution to this is to add players from the bracket below to fill the lobby. Currently when they run out of players in a bracket to fill the lobby they fill the rest of the lobby with the players that have the highest DR, causing D rated players to be matched with A+ rated players

I have always thought that if DR is used to rank lobbies that no DR ranking should race more than one class up or down and be matched close as possible by manner points.

A DR B racer should never race an A+ or a D ranked racer.

A DR C racer should never race against any rank higher than B and against D ranked racers and D ranked racers should never be in a lobby with a racer higher than one ranked C.

DR ranking letter rankings should never change downward for a racer, once you have earned a letter rank then you retain that letter rank for good. The points level within that ranking can fluctuate by performance but the letter ranking stays the same.

This would stop some of the ranking manipulation of dropping rankings to obtain easier wins and races against lower ranked opponents which is always done at the expense of those racers that are truly skill wise in the lower rankings.

Also each player is allowed only one active game account period. Anyone caught violating such would be banned from any online aspect of the game. This would also stop the throwaway accounts while preserving the main account rankings.
This will also stop players from starting accounts just to race against lower level racers in the sport mode races or to not worry about driving dirty within a race on the lower account as it does not affect their main account used for FIA races or whatever.
 
A better solution would be to simply increase the SR amplitude from 0-99 to 0-999, while proportionially maintaining the ranks. This prevents big SR spikes and smooths out the curve. Think about it, the SR rating is based on the premise of clean racing. But clean racing cannot be determined by a handful of races, its a trait that inherently emerges from continuous and long-term effort of sportsmanship and thus should be treated as one.
I think your suggestion would be a good change and it would reduce the problem of high rated drivers who have temporarily lost SR and dropped down a bracket. You would still get DR D drivers matched with drivers with high DR but are correctly in a lower SR bracket
 
Sometimes people forget that Sport mode is not AI drivers but real people...

The game is old now and I think the Sport mode is split in 2 main types of players :
- the hardcore simracers (wheel / pedals) that train / fight hard in the FIA championships
- the kids and the "I just bought the game, what is this Sport mode ?"

This is why IMO, D-S drivers are really rare nowadays. When you're playing in Sport mode the system struggles to match make a race for you because there are not enough people from your ranking.

IMO, the most important is that the game can offer you clean races thanks to the SR system.
 
Sadly the problem is there are not enough D/S drivers.

In general there are 2 matchmaking options PD has (by SR[AS, BS, CS, DS] and DR [DS, DA, DB, DC, DD, DE]):
1. By SR. Means keep things the way they are and keep your clean but faster lobbies.
2. BR DR. Get matched with other D rank drivers in varying sportsmanship brackets. Would you really be having more fun if you were getting punted off every corner by divebombs and people blocking? Unfortunately most drivers that match your speed are very dirty.


The game should match drivers equally. D with D, B with B and so forth. A D-S driver should only ever be matched with a grid of other D-S drivers as should A-S drivers only be mixed with A-S drivers and the same for every other combo too. Seriously, how hard can i be to implement a fair system?! It totally puts me off racing when you know you cant make any progress.

The game already does this. Except instead of having 30 lobbies with only 4/5 drivers in them, they group them up. Believe me, in that lobby is ALL of the D/S drivers.

Later in the night there's usually 1-3 A+/S drivers online, should that lobby just be 3 cars? then the next lobby is the only 5 A/S drivers? B/S is pretty busy they can usually fill a lobby during peak times, but if they don't they game just keeps pulling in from the group below.

for example:
[ 2x S/S ][ 5x A/S ][ 6x B/S ][ still 7 more slots to fill so dip into C/S then into D/S ]

If you want to see the matchmaking work really well try the FIA races. Since there are way more drivers the lobbies are almost always perfectly uniform.
 
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Matchmaking seems to be determined by SR rating, I’m surprised more people aren’t mentioning that. OP, I can understand your frustration, but a system that sorts by driver rating instead of SR would be a disaster for people who want their races to be as clean as possible. I get that it can be frustrating to not finish toward the front and have to struggle to move up in the field, but be thankful you don’t have to deal with the dirtiness as much as you would have to with a lower SR. Someone with an S SR has a lot more respect from me than someone who’s rated an A or S and has an SR of B or C.
 
https://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/drivers-by/driver-rating

Looking at the combined DR/SR table there's almost 5x more DR D drivers at SR B than S. If pace is the most important thing for you matchmaking wise, I'm afraid you've just got to either improve or reduce your SR. Also the only way a D driver matches with any A's at all is usually in the 80-89 SR lobby which should just be merged into the 90+ one to avoid confusion.

There just aren't that many 'slow' drivers who are also clean enough to stay within track limits and crash into others.



Then you just get people who's fastest lap was achieved by slipstream being out of position pace wise and causing more accidents and frustration



This is actually the biggest issue the 'slow and average' drivers have imho, much more than matchmaking. If you think you've reached a 'peak' whilst being over 5 seconds a lap slower on a normal lap then you've mentally given up already. I wouldn't say 'lazy' because I saw someone get grief for that a few weeks ago, but he wasn't far off.

Then don't say lazy or anything like it.

The fact is that the game matches fast and slow in the same race. Most likely by choice and not because there isn't enough players.
 
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