Spring Rates & Suspension - very interesting research

[Bowtie-muscle]

Here is a tune by Bobby Steel, aka Jack Napier/ShamrockGT/SiNiST3R whatever/whoever. From FITT Hot Hatch a year ago. So he did actually post a tune. A complete one. Scoring can be found here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I switched the high rpm turbo for the Mid, and changed the engine tuning from 3 down to 2, added a little ballast and my car meets regulations.

From there I readjusted the gears to the track. All set just in time for the deadline.
VW Golf IV GTi 01

470pp/295hp/295ft-lb/1075kg

Sports Hard Tires to Sports Soft

GTAuto
No oil Change
Instal Improved Rigidity

Body & Wheels
Painted Factory Indigoblau Perlefekt
Aero Kit Type-A
Custom Wing Type-A
1 inch up BBS RS Wheels

Power Limiter at 100%

Power Upgrades
Engine Tuning Stage 2
Intake Tuning
Sports Computer
Isometric Exhaust Manifold
Sports Catalytic Converter
Racing Exhaust
Mid RPM Range Turbo Kit
Triple Plate Clutch

Adjustable Suspension
Adjustable Transmission
Adjustable Differential

Downforce 0/12

Weight Reductions
Stage 3 Weight Reduction
Carbon Hood
Ballast 18kg @ 18%

Suspension
F/R
87/78
5.10/3.94
5/7
2/3
2/5
-1.2/-0.6
-0.45/0.0

Racing Brakes
F/R
6/4

Transmission
Final Drive Gear Set to 4.250

Max Speed Set to 155mph

Gears set to

2.899
1.799
1.286
1.000
0.805

4.250

Drivetrain set to
I/A/D
6/19/7

"Control your Fast"

The car it's based on has Neuspeed springs, strut bar, & sways. Bilstein damps, BBS RS wheels, GiAC chip, Boost Controller & BOV, turbo back & gutted Catt using the WRX CEL eliminator. Hawk Pads & Falken rubber. Carbon hood, B&M short throw, M3 side mirrors, eyelids and front lip. I'll get pics when I can.

Couple hours Testing at Brands Hatch & I can pull off consistent 1:39 laps with no assist just ABS-1 and my steering wheel.

I wish my Skunk2 DC5 ITR would qualify, that car is so fast it takes out 600pp RH A-Spec races at 550pp on SM like it ain't no thang. Not that it is, but still fun.

Last edited: Apr 20, 2014

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

And if you look at the tune, he ALSO used the ride height glitch! So I guess no one is immune to GLITCH TUNING.

Just posting the facts and giving proof.

 

[killerjimbag]

And if you look at the tune, he ALSO used the ride height glitch! So I guess no one is immune to GLITCH TUNING.

Just posting the facts and giving proof.

Ha,ha,and he used ABS 1.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Ha,ha,and he used ABS 1.

Well, FITT RULES make him.

 

[killerjimbag]

Well, FITT RULES make him.

Yes they make him slower

 

[Johnnypenso]

Here is a tune by Bobby Steel, aka Jack Napier/ShamrockGT/SiNiST3R whatever/whoever. From FITT Hot Hatch a year ago. So he did actually post a tune. A complete one. Scoring can be found here.

Sounds like Bobby is a wrestling fan. He probably believes it's real too.

The thing about "replica" tuning is that the physics of GT6 are nowhere near good enough to replicate any real car, and the feeling of the replicas is completely subjective anyway so you can never really know how accurate it is. Tires don't retain or shed heat, tire models aren't era specific for overall behaviour, suspension settings are backwards, camber doesn't work like it should if at all, ABS is modeled incorrectly etc. etc. etc. I've driven a couple of so called "replica" tunes and frankly they were horrible, not fun to drive, and very slow relative to even a stock tune. So you can throw up any kind of tune that handles like a slug and if it's criticized you can just fall back on, "it's not supposed to be fast, it's a replica".

Of course anyone can "replica tune" if they want, no one will stop you, it's a free game and all that, but the vast majority of players just want to go as fast as possible and exploit whatever physics glitches there are in order to do so. When the game physics are up to replica level and real world tuning actually works, replicas will have more basis in reality. I don't think you'll see that day anytime soon though, it's just not that kind of game.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Sounds like Bobby is a wrestling fan. He probably believes it's real too.

The thing about "replica" tuning is that the physics of GT6 are nowhere near good enough to replicate any real car, and the feeling of the replicas is completely subjective anyway so you can never really know how accurate it is. Tires don't retain or shed heat, tire models aren't era specific for overall behaviour, suspension settings are backwards, camber doesn't work like it should if at all, ABS is modeled incorrectly etc. etc. etc. I've driven a couple of so called "replica" tunes and frankly they were horrible, not fun to drive, and very slow relative to even a stock tune. So you can throw up any kind of tune that handles like a slug and if it's criticized you can just fall back on, "it's not supposed to be fast, it's a replica".

Of course anyone can "replica tune" if they want, no one will stop you, it's a free game and all that, but the vast majority of players just want to go as fast as possible and exploit whatever physics glitches there are in order to do so. When the game physics are up to replica level and real world tuning actually works, replicas will have more basis in reality. I don't think you'll see that day anytime soon though, it's just not that kind of game.

So true:tup:

For the record, he was mentioned by someone who read his "theories" on another site and linked to it. I was informed that I was mentioned in a negative way in said thread which is the only reason gave it any of my time. He has theories that are based on his thoughts. I have tunes. He uses a wheel, I use a DS3. He may be faster, but I never claimed to be the fastest or best tuner. But at least I post TUNES!

 

[Johnnypenso]

So true:tup:

For the record, he was mentioned by someone who read his "theories" on another site and linked to it. I was informed that I was mentioned in a negative way in said thread which is the only reason gave it any of my time. He has theories that are based on his thoughts. I have tunes. He uses a wheel, I use a DS3. He may be faster, but I never claimed to be the fastest or best tuner. But at least I post TUNES!

The question is though - did you get a cool new nickname?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

The question is though - did you get a cool new nickname?

Not yet

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

The question is though - did you get a cool new nickname?

Update, guess I'm a cockroach

 

[OdeFinn]

Uhh.. Too much trolling.. Please could you guys stop that on here and also on linked forum, whole point of this thread and that linked thread is going deep under..

PLEASE! <-me shouting too

Ps. If this thread isn't for you, please leave, would like to ask mods to clean your garbage, but afraid at if they close whole thread 'coz of few non mature people, thread itself is useful, garbage not.

 

[killerjimbag]

Uhh.. Too much trolling.. Please could you guys stop that on here and also on linked forum, whole point of this thread and that linked thread is going deep under..

PLEASE! <-me shouting too

Ps. If this thread isn't for you, please leave, would like to ask mods to clean your garbage, but afraid at if they close whole thread 'coz of few non mature people, thread itself is useful, garbage not.

Dude you must have been away from the forums for awhile,did you have the joy if being called every swear word known to man because you don't agree with his "theories" He was proven wrong on numerous occasions by many people,who have actually contributed to tuning by posting tunes, instead of spewing rethoric about his hacked console,codes,and how fast he is. If you want help with your LSD go contribute to "his" forum. I can say or post whatever I want on another forum,he posts his rants,I can post mine,at least there are moderators here.Put on your swear glasses and enjoy the gong show. Don't disagree with him,because you will become one of us.

 

[OdeFinn]

Dude you must have been away from the forums for awhile,did you have the joy if being called every swear word known to man because you don't agree with his "theories" He was proven wrong on numerous occasions by many people,who have actually contributed to tuning by posting tunes, instead of spewing rethoric about his hacked console,codes,and how fast he is. If you want help with your LSD go contribute to "his" forum. I can say or post whatever I want on another forum,he posts his rants,I can post mine,at least there are moderators here.Put on your swear glasses and enjoy the gong show. Don't disagree with him,because you will become one of us.

Haven't seen his posting a thing on this thread, OP started thread for good reason, not because of person, because of information what might be usable for all of us. I don't give a 🤬 if someone starts 🤬:ng on me, and if I cause it on my own behavior then I just had to look on mirror and think what I did wrong.

This debate against some person is hilarious, I have to filter out nearly 70% text written here in GTP to keep my sanity, there lot of nonsense what should be on PM's or conversations between some particular people, text what gives nothing to me, then there starts some interesting thread and again it's filled whit this personal 🤬, no-one stays on topic or even try to have proper conversation.

Actually just registered to that next something, maybe I have to try do this conversation there, or maybe even on personal messages to that said bad bad bad guy, I want to learn more, or educate those who are willing openly learn stuff, that guy seems much like that too..

 

[super_gt]

Please guys more respect

 

[DaBomm4]

Nice to see at he is reading this too, sinister can you check my garage about LSD things, if you could open that out from game code I would be pleased, thanks.

Actually just registered to that next something, maybe I have to try do this conversation there, or maybe even on personal messages

I am not saying that (on topic) discussion over here should not happen, but you have just made it easier on yourself with trying to discuss directly with SiNiST3R, since he is not being given easy access to be replying here. From my perspective though, there is no reason for him to "waste" time watching GTPlanet since some of the members don't like him for whatever reason they have. I would put this up on NGU, but as we know, he will probably read it here, so I would not need to repeat myself.

I cannot tell anyone what to do, but by looking around the internet, it appears that the people have made their own decisions about others, and from my experience it may time a lot of time to possibly change those opinions and mend any wounds.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Haven't seen his posting a thing on this thread, OP started thread for good reason, not because of person, because of information what might be usable for all of us. I don't give a 🤬 if someone starts 🤬:ng on me, and if I cause it on my own behavior then I just had to look on mirror and think what I did wrong.

This debate against some person is hilarious, I have to filter out nearly 70% text written here in GTP to keep my sanity, there lot of nonsense what should be on PM's or conversations between some particular people, text what gives nothing to me, then there starts some interesting thread and again it's filled whit this personal 🤬, no-one stays on topic or even try to have proper conversation.

Actually just registered to that next something, maybe I have to try do this conversation there, or maybe even on personal messages to that said bad bad bad guy, I want to learn more, or educate those who are willing openly learn stuff, that guy seems much like that too..

I pointed out several useful facts.
1. Why does he keep getting banned.
2. Posted a rare tune of his, which uses the ride height glitch that he rips GTP tuners for using.
3. He has been using every opportunity to rip GTP members, myself included, and many well respected others. That is a fact that has been proven.
4. You have done more by actually posting tunes, which he does not.

These are facts, and some with proof. Simply pointing them out so anyone who thinks his theories are good will know who they are dealing with. If you agree with him, ok, good for you. Otherwise, just ignore as he had never proven any of his theories. EVER.

Now out of respect of your request, I will no longer post in this thread.

 

[killerjimbag]

Haven't seen his posting a thing on this thread, OP started thread for good reason, not because of person, because of information what might be usable for all of us. I don't give a 🤬 if someone starts 🤬:ng on me, and if I cause it on my own behavior then I just had to look on mirror and think what I did wrong.

This debate against some person is hilarious, I have to filter out nearly 70% text written here in GTP to keep my sanity, there lot of nonsense what should be on PM's or conversations between some particular people, text what gives nothing to me, then there starts some interesting thread and again it's filled whit this personal 🤬, no-one stays on topic or even try to have proper conversation.

Actually just registered to that next something, maybe I have to try do this conversation there, or maybe even on personal messages to that said bad bad bad guy, I want to learn more, or educate those who are willing openly learn stuff, that guy seems much like that too..

Well good luck with that endeavor.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I pointed out several useful fact.

4. You have done more by actually posting tunes, which he does not.

These are facts, and some with proof. Simply pointing them out so anyone who thinks his theories ate good will know who they are dealing with. If you agree with him, ok, good for you. Otherwise, just ignore as he had never proven any of his theories. EVER.

Now out of respect of your request, I will no longer post in this thread.

That's the key point for me right there. I don't care what anyone believes or thinks they believe, if you post pages and pages and pages of theories and make all kinds of promises about how right you are, how good your tuning is, how you beat up noobs left right and centre in open lobbies, how you're so fast people think you're a hacker - then you can't pony up a full tune for the rest of us to test out your theories - it comes across as someone who is completely full of hot air and just likes to hear the sound of their voice.

If you are replica tuning that's fine, no one expects a replica to be fast or really good on a track. But when you are constantly talking about how fast you are, that you figured out a magic formula for camber for example, which should make you faster, and don't pony up tunes, you're just someone looking for people to agree with you without offering any proof of competence. That kind of thing has never gone over well on GTP. It's a funny place, they actually ask you to prove things on the track, not on paper.

 

[OdeFinn]

That kind of thing has never gone over well on GTP. It's a funny place, they actually ask you to prove things on the track, not on paper.

Speaking now about myself; I tune my cars to be nice and enjoyable to drive, at least I'm enjoying them, but like to leave their personality there, don't mess with ballast like most tuners here do. I like to get car moving without making them all 50/50 balanced racers where is only body silhouette left from original.

Even fixing my BTR LSD was thing what I'm still wondering why I made that.. It become too easy, I have even better on my own use now, I said to myself: maybe showing that locking style was good and opens people eyes..
There is (GT6)tuners who say how they know much from racing, and still using lock on car what has more locking on braking than on acceleration, I call those "parachute locks", totally out of ideology of all tuning and same car with different lock, lock where there is real locking on acceleration side beats original 6-0 on lap/drag/cornering. This why trying to show different approach to LSD tuning.

I don't give my gearboxes out what I made for cars what I want to use when I'm in mood to race for podium places, same goes for some cars what are refined from noABS cars to compete on those "silly" ABS allowed rooms, whole point of giving any tune out is to show one way of tuning, maybe inspire some other too to tune more realistic way their cars.
Here comes the shocking thing, I don't race for winning, I race for the joy, I know at I can produce tune what is fast on fast driver hands, and that driver enjoys riding with it, and same time I'm just wiping trashes from my windshield with same tune, don't mind.
I'm happy when I get few skilled guys on same room and we're constantly changing positions, but only by real clean real-life style overtakes. Races what I tried to win are more likely considered endurance races with full damage and everything hard as possible. Then my tunes are extremely good, tire savers, fuel savers, stable and forgiving(not all ).
Then seasonals.. Reputation coming from them, freely, I drive my seasonals always noABS and with some ...tty car with somehow decent tune, trying to be fastest of my friendlist noABS drivers, laughing at those gsrx/hoover drivers.. Maybe I get times on list around 1000 position, but I'm happy, I did it with noABS, camber, etc.. no money glitch so sometimes just cashing, now that b-spec helped on credits..

I understand why that sinister doesn't want give tunes out, neither did I, but I was willing to try mumble with my bad English something how to achieve better tunes, or some part of tuning, giving ideas to people where to look, like I tried to ask and give info to @killerjimbag about caster, now if somebody is interested they can go and pick my BTR tune and test it on Nordschleife, if they drive with wheel they should notice how front tires are spreading under compression and giving negative TOE values, all because of camber and caster working together. I'm using G27 with 900 degree setting, steering sensitivity 6, ffb torque 6, ffb sensitivity 10, simulation on (affects or not, don't care), power steering on.

Btw. When I figured out how to change G27 steering radius I stop for thinking should I just keep it on my on knowledge, or should I tell it to all.. Well I decided to be fair as I usually do, now there is pretty many happy drifter with their wheels.. Sometimes I just put that post link to Google and watch how many reposts that have, plenty, I'm happy because I see at people use it and like it. Just for fun of sharing. Now I'm pushing this ...t off-topic..

 

[OdeFinn]

Now we need some volunteers to do their Motec/data logger tests about LSD and how values entered in settings sheet are handled by game and are those really direct percentages what we enter there.
As in my theory of how init value is base locking amount and ACCELand DECEL values are just amounts how much more it locks above INIT when activating those.

Hands up who wants to do tests? Read that OP linked forum thread and ask questions after that.

Double posting for a good reason.

 

[CSLACR]

1. I raced JackNapier, he's fast, not that fast.
2. It would seem people are getting dangerously close to posting on his behalf around here. That can cause trouble with the mods.

Sinister has been banned multiple times, the decision has been made by the powers that be. Bringing his "material" back on GTP for people to read could be viewed as effectively trying to dodge that.

Jus sayin'.


My 2 cents on the matter?
His tune with 7.5 degrees of camber is flat-out terrible. If I had to guess (given his abilities that I've witnessed) is he tells people to tune wrong on purpose. For advantage.
Just my 2c.

 

[killerjimbag]

Yes I read over his "caster" theory.
The values are what,7 or 10 which seem to be the common numbers of his hacked console. He thinks? Then he talks about using a "hybrid" for testing? Yeah I read all if it. Since most of us don't hack or have a hybrid,I'm throwing the baby out with the water here. Done with this now.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My 2 cents on the matter?
His tune with 7.5 degrees of camber is flat-out terrible. If I had to guess (given his abilities that I've witnessed) is he tells people to tune wrong on purpose. For advantage.
Just my 2c.

Sabotage. An interesting angle.

 

[OdeFinn]

@CSLACR what you care, sinister is not here, but he helped to test LSD for me, surprisingly his tests just confirmed things what I thought, my theory, not his. This theory is here to help all, your posting is trying to hurt all, maybe it's better for you to sit on side and watch.
Answers like that should go like:

Now I'm asking people in GTP to see are those test results valid as I think they are, but I'm not going to post data logger info or Motegi info here, I'm biased coz of it's my own theory. Non biased tests done by others here can validate was there something or was I also blowing in the wind.

 

[CSLACR]

@CSLACR what you care, sinister is not here, but he helped to test LSD for me, surprisingly his tests just confirmed things what I thought, my theory, not his. This theory is here to help all, your posting is trying to hurt all, maybe it's better for you to sit on side and watch.
Answers like that should go like:

Now I'm asking people in GTP to see are those test results valid as I think they are, but I'm not going to post data logger info or Motegi info here, I'm biased coz of it's my own theory. Non biased tests done by others here can validate was there something or was I also blowing in the wind.

You've already been answered. No, most of us do not think they are valid.

If my posting is "to hurt all", report me.

Quote sinister again and see a mod.

If you guys really wanted to prove a theory, we'd see tunes in FITT events or something like it. Oh wait we did. Highlandor, Jack Napier, whomever, nobody cares. If your "theory" leads to slow terrible lap times, we just don't care how great you say it is. Period.

 

[killerjimbag]

@CSLACR what you care, sinister is not here, but he helped to test LSD for me, surprisingly his tests just confirmed things what I thought, my theory, not his. This theory is here to help all, your posting is trying to hurt all, maybe it's better for you to sit on side and watch.
Answers like that should go like:

Now I'm asking people in GTP to see are those test results valid as I think they are, but I'm not going to post data logger info or Motegi info here, I'm biased coz of it's my own theory. Non biased tests done by others here can validate was there something or was I also blowing in the wind.

Here we go again,I have data,but will not post it,I have a theory,but I will not post it,thank god Einstein didn't think this way.

 

[TurnLeft]

@OdeFinn , hi, I've done a few tests that I put out, did one on the ride hight (only FF cars) a long time ago ( before they called it a glitch), one on brakes ABS/0 + a small incomplete comparison to brakes ABS/1 (still have a few things to do here to finish it off) and also some other stuff that I put out, whenever I've put these out with numbers, graphs, procedure of testing, it has never brought out any controversy, it's just becomes facts which can be duplicated by anyone who takes the time to do it. What people do with the facts and how they interpret them that's a whole other story but if you prove the earth is round by using scientific data then it is round (that happened but people didn't want to believe it , and there are still some that don't believe it ),

I congratulate you on the time you put out testing but I can not know if it's viable if I can not do the test myself. I need the methodology that you use for testing. Questions that arise from not publishing your findings are, Were there flaws in it (the testing procedure)? What is it pertinent to? Can it be repeated with different cars and still hold true? and so on.

As in real life, no theory is valid until it can be duplicated by another researcher, and the more researchers that can duplicate the findings the more credible it will be. I agree that there is a bit of childish behavior on this thread but that could all be swept away with communication, and a little laughter makes the day brighter but not at the expense of another person for revenge.

I don't judge theories until I try them, to me and especially in a digital game we may never know the truth, the fun part is in finding at least some of it, but to try those theories out properly you need
1. Procedure,
2. Measuring Devices
3. Theory
4. and in this case the object were testing, cars.
5. Repeat until there is no doubt and can't be proven wrong.

The tests and theories that I am presently working on are,
Trying to find a way to calculate the tires grip level.
A car emulator ( not going very well with this )
A spring to tire compensation , fining the value you have to adjust the spring rate when you change the tire type.
and a bunch of things most people would call nonsense , but I find fun.

To find the tests and other crazy things I did you can use the link in my signature - Fly Me To The Moon - and in the OP scroll down to the header written R&D (Research & Development) then click on the links.
We play this because we have fun doing it.

 

[CSLACR]

Another thing to remember, is just because a tune improves your lap time, doesn't mean it made the car actually quicker. It only means it made the car quicker with said driver driving.
Any driver error in the process changes the tune further away from 100%. Any, even mine, being about a second slower than true aliens usually, my error keeps my judgement from being perfect.

 

[OdeFinn]

Quote sinister again and see a mod.

Can you first show me the first quote before continuing threatings against me.

Here we go again,I have data,but will not post it,I have a theory,but I will not post it,thank god Einstein didn't think this way.

Lol, so biased proof would be nice

I congratulate you on the time you put out testing but I can not know if it's viable if I can not do the test myself. I need the methodology that you use for testing. Questions that arise from not publishing your findings are, Were there flaws in it (the testing procedure)? What is it pertinent to? Can it be repeated with different cars and still hold true? and so on.

Maybe OP's linked thread contains too technical information for you, I'll try to do simpler version for you.
60/40/40 do a run on some particular corners, ie. Tsukuba would be easy to do similar laps.
60/50/50 same
60/60/60 same
20/60/20
25/55/15
Etc

Compare 60 init wheel spins during acceleration and braking, if my theory is right all those 60 init LSD's are giving identical wheel speed differences.

Other init lsd's under it will give similar/identical slipping when traction is lost, slipping will start bit differently because of different amount of initial, but total amount of lock will be same = tire slip/speed difference between right and left.

Another thing to remember, is just because a tune improves your lap time, doesn't mean it made the car actually quicker. It only means it made the car quicker with said driver driving.

Where we speak speed? Didn't see that part, why picking things here what are irrelevant, does drifter need speed, and is that reason why they have 1000hp cars?

 

[CSLACR]

Where we speak speed? Didn't see that part, why picking things here what are irrelevant, does drifter need speed, and is that reason why they have 1000hp cars?

Physics don't work like that.
What works, works, and what doesn't, doesn't. Increasing ride height, for example, adds grip. Whether you're drifting, drag racing, cruising, parked, or racing, raising the ride height adds grip.

Can you first show me the first quote before continuing threatings against me.

I wasn't originally referring to you.

The whole thread was wildly out of line, not that you noticed.
Then you suggested I "stand to the side".
No I will not stand to the side so you can bicker and refuse to provide diddly and everyone is acting out. No dice.

The simple fact you call your own testing results "biased" says enough for me.
Mine aren't.