Standing Restart Rule is Live: Discuss

[Samus]

So the safety car rule is confirmed. What a joke, making things even less fair and sporting.








Budded off of Austrian GP Discussion. Carry on men. Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes. -niky

 

[Tired Tyres]

What is unfair or less sporting about going back to the standing starts that they always used to do before the safety car?

Don't you understand that launching a car from a grid is a driver skill?

In no way whatsoever does this make anything at all less fair or less sporting.

 

[Samus]

What is unfair or less sporting about going back to the standing starts that they always used to do before the safety car?

Don't you understand that launching a car from a grid is a driver skill?

In no way whatsoever does this make anything at all less fair or less sporting.

Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current, better format except the FIA have decided it's not exciting enough. Last time I checked safety cars are not meant to be exciting, they're for safety. FIA seem to want to turn this into an entertainment show rather than a sporting event that is naturally entertaining.

So imagine this scenario, a driver is leading the championship going into the final, double points race. He's leading the race comfortably with ten laps to go until a backmarker crashes, bringing out the safety car. His lead is decimated already through no fault of his own, now he had to content with an unnecessary standing start at which he has a clutch failure, putting him back to 5th off the grid. Ordinarily he'd still win the title but no, we've got double points as well so the title goes to his rival.

I don't see how that is fair or sporting, he's lost the championship through manufactured events designed purely for entertainment. I don't like the way the FIA are going at all.

 

[Tired Tyres]

You can blame double points for being double points all you like. That has nothing to do with restart procedure.

Once the safety car has done its job it is no longer a safety issue at all. That has zero bearing on the restart procedure.

They are going back to what they used to do before you started watching F1.

Since any issues with additional starts affects everyone equally, it is fair, and if your pole sitting championship leader can't launch from the grid properly then that is on him and his team for not doing a good enough job. There is NOTHING unfair or unsporting about that at all.

 

[DQuaN]

I agree with Samus. If you have a 30 second lead and the safety car comes out, not only do you lose that lead entirely, but you also lose most of the ability to defend that lead on the restart.

 

[Tired Tyres]

So the pole position driver who has such a good car that he's established a 30 lead doesn't have an advantage over everyone else?

How many metres ahead does he start again? That looks like plenty of advantage to me.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

The entire point of the safety car is to avoid a restart where possible. By keeping the cars moving it means the race can continue much quicker. Also the most dangerous part of any motor race is the start.
With restarts, the cars still have to drive slowly and bunch up, but then they all have to line up on the grid. Chances are drivers will go into the wrong grid slot, others will stall, some cars with now cold tyres and worn brakes will crash.

 

[DQuaN]

So the pole position driver who has such a good car that he's established a 30 lead doesn't have an advantage over everyone else?

How many metres ahead does he start again? That looks like plenty of advantage to me.

It's not. The start is a massive variable. Someone from 4th place can challenge in to the first corner. On a normal safety car restart the leader can easily defend his position.

 

[Samus]

You can blame double points for being double points all you like. That has nothing to do with restart procedure.

I didn't say it did, I'm saying all of these decisions are adding together to make the sport into a circus show.

Once the safety car has done its job it is no longer a safety issue at all. That has zero bearing on the restart procedure.

They are going back to what they used to do before you started watching F1.

Right, you've still not explained what is wrong with the current system that it needed changing.

Since any issues with additional starts affects everyone equally, it is fair, and if your pole sitting championship leader can't launch from the grid properly then that is on him and his team for not doing a good enough job. There is NOTHING unfair or unsporting about that at all.

Of course there is. You're potentially mixing up the racing order simply because you can, for entertaiment and lottery. That isn't fair on any driver, let alone the leader.

So the pole position driver who has such a good car that he's established a 30 lead doesn't have an advantage over everyone else?

How many metres ahead does he start again? That looks like plenty of advantage to me.

But why are you forcing him into doing that, there is no sporting reason. It's purely for entertainment because FIA decided restarts aren't exciting enough.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Double file rolling start restarts ftw!

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I have to say I agree with @Tired Tyres on the subject of grid re-starts.

I can see Samus' point but to me the nature of sport is unpredictability, cruelty and euphoria.

I experienced all three of those on May 13th 2012. That was a day I will never forget but also a day I never want to re live.

 

[Samus]

I have to say I agree with @Tired Tyres on the subject of grid re-starts.

I can see Samus' point but to me the nature of sport is unpredictability, cruelty and euphoria.

I experienced all three of those on May 13th 2012. That was a day I will never forget but also a day I never want to re live.

I had to google that date but you see, that was fair. Unpredictable and cruel perhaps, but fair. They scored two goals fair and square to win the match. They FA didn't do anything to the match to make it more likely for Man City to score for entertainment purposes.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I had to google that date but you see, that was fair. Unpredictable and cruel perhaps, but fair. They scored two goals fair and square to win the match. The FA didn't do anything to the match to make it more likely for Man City to score for entertainment purposes.

Now that I agree with. I don't like that the FIA are changing the rules to make it more entertaining.

However the FIA have every right to change the rules as they see fit and at the end of the day the rules are the rules whether they are unfair or otherwise.

It's like a football player being sent off for what the referee deems a dangerous foul or a second bookable offence but when all the slow motion replays are aired on TV the viewers can see that the referee was wrong to send off said player. At the end of the day the referee's decision is final.

Yes, football clubs can appeal those decisions but I'm sure that competing F1 teams can appeal the decision on grid restarts if they want to.

 

[Imari]

It's like a football player being sent off for what the referee deems a dangerous foul or a second bookable offence but when all the slow motion replays are aired on TV the viewers can see that the referee was wrong to send off said player. At the end of the day the referee's decision is final.

It's not like that at all.

F1 has those as well. It's called bad steward decisions. When they issue a drive through for an infraction that wasn't an infraction, that's the racing equivalent of your false send off.

Standing starts are simply the FIA trying introduce as much randomness into the equation as possible, under the guise of creating exciting racing. Standing starts are probably the most dangerous time of the race, and they give great opportunity for one person's mistake to affect lots of other people, either through an accident or simply by blocking someone in. While there's skill involved as always, it's much more of a toss up who will come out in front than a simple rolling restart is.

I'm yet to hear a good reason why this method of restarting is better. Anyone who understands the sport understands that places made up are as contrived as the excitement from fake titanium blocks sparking on the bottom of the car. Superficially it's cool, but only if you really turn your brain off and don't think about it too much.

 

[Samus]

Yes or in this case, F1 fans can keep turning off in droves.

To make another comparison to football, it just seems that the FIA want every race to be a 4-3 thriller and are doing everything they can to make overtakes happen, no matter how artificial they are, with DRS and now these standing starts. It'd be the equivalent of making the goals wider if a football match is 0-0 after so long, an artificial way to make the match supposedly more entertaining. What they don't seem to realise is that in the same way not every football match needs 7 goals to be thrilling, F1 doesn't need 400 overtakes in a race, nor does it need double points to make the championship more exciting.

Would the last part of the Bahrain race have been more thrilling if there was a standing restart and one of the Mercedes got swamped back into 5th/6th? No.

Artificial and unfair. For me there are no other words to describe it.

 

[Barra333]

It's not like that at all.

F1 has those as well. It's called bad steward decisions. When they issue a drive through for an infraction that wasn't an infraction, that's the racing equivalent of your false send off.

Disagree. The football ref has to make a call based on seeing the incident once, from one angle. If the flag marshals were handing out drive-throughs or Charlie Whiting based on a single feed without a replay, then fair analogy. As it is, stewards get the benefit of a dozen camera and a load of telemetry before anything is decided.

As to restarts, I am not too bothered. Mark Webber would be pretty happy he no longer in F1 though.

And for the actual topic of the thread, I have nothing to say about the Austrian GP.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I agree that the racing is becoming artificial. But I still can't see any unfairness in it.
There's no clear advantage to one particular driver or team.
If the race leader builds up a 30 second lead from the grid start of the race and a safety car brings them back to the grid again, there is nothing stopping that same race leader building up that lead from the exact same procedure. Yes, their tyres will be worn as will the brakes but they have to manage them behind the safety car anyway.

Disagree. The football ref has to make a call based on seeing the incident once, from one angle. If the flag marshals were handing out drive-throughs or Charlie Whiting based on a single feed without a replay, then fair analogy. As it is, stewards get the benefit of a dozen camera and a load of telemetry before anything is decided.

This ^

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes or in this case, F1 fans can keep turning off in droves.

To make another comparison to football, it just seems that the FIA want every race to be a 4-3 thriller and are doing everything they can to make overtakes happen, no matter how artificial they are, with DRS and now these standing starts. It'd be the equivalent of making the goals wider if a football match is 0-0 after so long, an artificial way to make the match supposedly more entertaining. What they don't seem to realise is that in the same way not every football match needs 7 goals to be thrilling, F1 doesn't need 400 overtakes in a race, nor does it need double points to make the championship more exciting.

Would the last part of the Bahrain race have been more thrilling if there was a standing restart and one of the Mercedes got swamped back into 5th/6th? No.

Artificial and unfair. For me there are no other words to describe it.

No more artificial than using a safety car rather than stopping the race.

As for unfair. Rubbish. Launching from the grid with several metres head start is all the advantage a competent racer driver needs. If he gets it wrong then he gets it wrong.

 

[Samus]

Rosberg:

“I understand the start is one of the most exciting times for the fans, but I hope this is not going to be done. That’s going too far with things. Why? I like the pure racing, the way it has been for the past 50 years. I don’t really want to see such a huge change, to do another start. It’s strange. My natural opinion at the moment is that it should stay the way it is now.”

/

I agree that the racing is becoming artificial. But I still can't see any unfairness in it.
There's no clear advantage to one particular driver or team.
If the race leader builds up a 30 second lead from the grid start of the race and a safety car brings them back to the grid again, there is nothing stopping that same race leader building up that lead from the exact same procedure. Yes, their tyres will be worn as will the brakes but they have to manage them behind the safety car anyway.

No, it's unfair to everyone, it's creating a lottery mid-race for nothing more than entertainment purposes. FIA have basically said as much, they want an opportunity to force position changes after a safety car. They're trying to manufacture changes because they don't think there are enough and that to me is ridiculous for a sport. What other sports have similar rules that try to manufacture excitement?

No more artificial than using a safety car rather than stopping the race.

A safety car is only artificial in that it can't be avoided cars will be bunched up. That is a side effect of the reason it's happening though, to slow the cars down during an incident. The safety car isn't specifically brought out to bunch the cars and create more overtaking opportunities (or at least it's not supposed to), that would be artificial, like this new rule. It is a rule created solely to manufacture changes in position, nothing else.

As for unfair. Rubbish. Launching from the grid with several metres head start is all the advantage a competent racer driver needs. If he gets it wrong then he gets it wrong.

So you don't think luck plays any part in a standing start? It's 100% skill? I don't think so, and so forcing a grid start several times a race just increases the chances of someone going out of the race or losing positions through no fault of their own, something that wouldn't have happened if the race continued on as normal or restarted as they do no after a SC.

Also still nobody has explained what is wrong with the current setup from a sporting point of view. A safety car should neutralise the race to make it safe during an incident and then allow it to continue on afterwards with no delays as a red flag would cause. I've always said IMO the pit lane should even close during a safety car so there are no changes for position.

F1 are trying to appeal to new fans but a race being stopped for ten minutes while they prepare for a grid start when it could continue on is not going to do that.

 

[Tired Tyres]

No, it's unfair to everyone, it's creating a lottery mid-race for nothing more than entertainment purposes. FIA have basically said as much, they want an opportunity to force position changes after a safety car. They're trying to manufacture changes because they don't think there are enough and that to me is ridiculous for a sport. What other sports have similar rules that try to manufacture excitement?



A safety car is only artificial in that it can't be avoided cars will be bunched up. That is a side effect of the reason it's happening though, to slow the cars down during an incident. The safety car isn't specifically brought out to bunch the cars and create more overtaking opportunities (or at least it's not supposed to), that would be artificial, like this new rule. It is a rule created solely to manufacture changes in position, nothing else.



So you don't think luck plays any part in a standing start? It's 100% skill? I don't think so, and so forcing a grid start several times a race just increases the chances of someone going out of the race or losing positions through no fault of their own, something that wouldn't have happened if the race continued on as normal or restarted as they do no after a SC.

Also still nobody has explained what is wrong with the current setup from a sporting point of view. A safety car should neutralise the race to make it safe during an incident and then allow it to continue on afterwards with no delays as a red flag would cause. I've always said IMO the pit lane should even close during a safety car so there are no changes for position.

F1 are trying to appeal to new fans but a race being stopped for ten minutes while they prepare for a grid start when it could continue on is not going to do that.

Because it closes up the field artificially. There is NOTHING sporting about that either.

I'm staggered that you can't see this as better in every conceivable way. I really am.

 

[Samus]

So with the current system the field are artificially closed up as an indirect result of the purpose of a safety car, to make the track safe for an incident to be cleared away whilst also allowing the race to continue. Once over, there is a rolling restart. This does give other cars an opportunity to overtake, but not significantly. Most of the time cars continue in the order they were before the safety car which is correct IMO. The safety car should not directly have a MAJOR affect on the racing order.

With the new system the field are artificially closed up as an indirect result of the purpose of a safety car, then following that they are completely closed up onto a standing start grid. This introduces the random and luck elements that a standing starts bring, also the increased danger of further accidents. I don't have it to hand but i'm pretty sure the stats show crashes are most likely at the start of the race. With this system the likelyhood of a MAJOR change in the racing order is likely, just as it is at the race start.

Neither are ideal from a sporting point of view but short of letting cars continue at full pace during an incident, which is obviously a terrible idea, it's got to be one of the two and I cannot fathom how the new system is the better option from a sporting point of view.

 

[Hun200kmh]

FIA FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

Changes to the F1 Regulations for 2015 have been agreed by the WMSC.

The last date at which the sporting and technical regulations can be changed without unanimous agreement has been changed from 30 June to 1 March each year, starting from 2015.

Changes to 2015 Sporting Regulations

Power units

- The number of engines permitted by each driver in a season will be four. However, if there are more than 20 races in a season, the number will increase to five.

- The penalty for a complete change of Power Unit will be starting from the back of the grid, not the pit lane.



Aerodynamic testing

- The number of wind tunnel runs will be reduced from 80 hours per week to 65 hours per week.

- Wind-on hours are to be reduced from 30 hours per week to 25 hours.

- Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) usage is to be reduced from 30 Teraflops to 25 Teraflops.

- Two periods of tunnel occupancy will be allowed in one day (rather than only one).

- Teams will only be able to nominate one wind tunnel in one year.



Testing

- There will be three pre-season tests of four days each in Europe in 2015 (currently teams are able to test outside Europe). This will be reduced to two tests of four days in 2016.

- There will be two in-season tests of two days each in Europe (instead of the current four). Two of these four days must be reserved for young drivers.



Car specification at an Event

The current restrictions to the parc fermé will now apply from the start of P3 instead of the start of qualifying.



Wheels and tyres

The ban on tyre blankets will be rescinded for 2015. This will be re-discussed if and when the wheel and tyre diameter increases in the future.



Personnel Curfew

The Friday night curfew will be extended from six to seven hours in 2015 and will increase to eight hours in 2016.



Safety Car restarts

Safety Car restarts will now be a standing start from the grid. Standing starts will not be carried out if the Safety Car is used within two laps of the start (or restart) of a race or if there are less than five laps of the race remaining.



Changes to 2015 Technical Regulations

A number of changes have been made, including:

- A number of new regulations for the noses to ensure improved safety and to provide more aesthetically pleasing structures.

- A number of new regulations concerning skid blocks to ensure that they are made from a lighter material (titanium) and are better contained.

- New regulations to ensure that the brake discs rotate at the same speed as the wheels.

- A two-stage wheel fastener retaining system is now compulsory.

The FIA is not shooting F1 in the foot. They are aiming at the head. I would pull out immediately of any entry attempt if I was Honda.

 

[Tired Tyres]

So with the current system the field are artificially closed up as an indirect result of the purpose of a safety car, to make the track safe for an incident to be cleared away whilst also allowing the race to continue. Once over, there is a rolling restart. This does give other cars an opportunity to overtake, but not significantly. Most of the time cars continue in the order they were before the safety car which is correct IMO. The safety car should not directly have a MAJOR affect on the racing order.

With the new system the field are artificially closed up as an indirect result of the purpose of a safety car, then following that they are completely closed up onto a standing start grid. This introduces the random and luck elements that a standing starts bring, also the increased danger of further accidents. I don't have it to hand but i'm pretty sure the stats show crashes are most likely at the start of the race. With this system the likelyhood of a MAJOR change in the racing order is likely, just as it is at the race start.

Neither are ideal from a sporting point of view but short of letting cars continue at full pace during an incident, which is obviously a terrible idea, it's got to be one of the two and I cannot fathom how the new system is the better option from a sporting point of view.

No the field is closed up as a direct result of the safety car, and in a lot of cases, US racing mainly for no other reason than to close up the field.

There is an entirely sporting solution. It is called Code 60, but good luck getting that passed as a rule in a sprint series when the governing body wants to close the field up.

When did you start watching F1? If it was before the ITV era, you wouldn't have a problem with this at all. I genuinely cannot understand your opposition to it.

 

[spacecowboy73]

Anything up to about 70% when they could call it a result and get full points.

For the longest time, they didn't reset timing so if you had a 30 second lead in the first part of the race you still kept the 30 lead at the start of the second part even if you are only a car length ahead of the other guy.

It was confusing at times.

This new rule doesn't seem like how it used to be. Gaps aren't maintained.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I think they stopped maintaining times just before they introduced the safety car, or it might have been the safety car introduction that stopped that.

Nope. Just checked the Japanese GP from 1994. They red flagged the race, then restarted behind the safety car but timing was separated over both parts of the race.

 

[DQuaN]

Because it closes up the field artificially. There is NOTHING sporting about that either.

I'm staggered that you can't see this as better in every conceivable way. I really am.

It closes up the field as a BI-PRODUCT of slowing them down. They HAVE to do this so as to make the track safe for marshals to remove debris or a stranded car. It is not designed to impact the racing or make it more exciting, it is there for SAFETY reasons. A driver with a large lead already loses out massively when a safety car comes out, but at least he can easily defend his position.

Changing this to actually STOP the race WAIT while they line up on the grid and then restarting is insane in my mind.

I'm staggered that you can't see this...

*edit*
Shouldn't this be a separate discussion anyway?

 

[niky]

Ask and ye shall receive.

I'm willing to give it a shot. If it is optional, and only used towards the last half of the race on red flags and to avoid excessive laps under yellow, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Situations in which attacking drivers lose several laps of tires and fuel while debris is cleared is equally unfair to them... and, let's face it... leading drivers get their lead decimated on the safety car, anyway... and the pit stop lottery makes a mockery of preserving the order of the race. Especially for those lucky to come up to the pit entrance while the safety car is on the other side of the track collecting the leaders.

I agree though, that this introduces an unnecessary element of danger... but again, we're going to be seeing this used mostly later in the race rather than early... so you have less idiots to bang wheels with.

Will reserve judgment till I see what happens the first two or three times this is used.

 

[Carbonox]

So, umm, what was wrong with the high quality non-artificial racing? You know, around the 90's and stuff?

 

[spacecowboy73]

So, umm, what was wrong with the high quality non-artificial racing? You know, around the 90's and stuff?

Apparently those years weren't really that good after all, and neither were Bahrain or Canada of this year.

 

[Dennisch]

So, how will this be implemented? Will they keep lapping as they do know, and when the safety car goes in they will go to their start position?