Statistical anomalies in motorsports.

[Liquid]

Benetton is the only team in F1 history to win Grands Prix under two different team nationalities; 26 of their victories were under a British licence and 1 was under an Italian licence.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Benetton is the only team in F1 history to win Grands Prix under two different team nationalities; 26 of their victories were under a British licence and 1 was under an Italian licence.

Now you've sent me down the rabbit hole of all constructors to change nationalities.

Alfa Romeo (Italian and Swiss)
Benetton (Italian and British)
BMW Sauber (German and Swiss)
Force India (Indian and British)
Lotus (British and Malaysian)
Marussia (Russian and British)
Red Bull (British and Austrian)
Renault (French and British)
Shadow (British and American)
Virgin (British and Russian)

 

[Roo]

The Stage system of racing, where a race is broken up into 3 sections with championship points awarded to the top 10 at the end of stages 1 and 2, was introduced to NASCAR at the start of 2017. The Cup race at Martinsville last weekend was the first stage race where the winner didn't score the most points:

• Denny Hamlin won stages 1 and 2, gaining 10 points each, came second overall for another 35, and got 1 point for fastest lap, totalling 56;
• Chase Elliot was outside the top 10 after stages 1 and 2 so scored no points from either, but won the race for 55 championship points.

 

[Pete05]

The Stage system of racing, where a race is broken up into 3 sections with championship points awarded to the top 10 at the end of stages 1 and 2, was introduced to NASCAR at the start of 2017. The Cup race at Martinsville last weekend was the first stage race where the winner didn't score the most points:

• Denny Hamlin won stages 1 and 2, gaining 10 points each, came second overall for another 35, and got 1 point for fastest lap, totalling 56;
• Chase Elliot was outside the top 10 after stages 1 and 2 so scored no points from either, but won the race for 55 championship points.

Yeah, kinda smells a bit I reckon. Almost as much as splitting the races into stages.

I'm OK with drivers scoring points for things like qualifying so long as pole position scores the most.
I'm even fine with points for setting the fastest lap of the race, leading a lap of the race or leading the most laps of the race.
What should not be possible in any way at all, is for someone to end up with more points than the winner of the race. That should always be the ultimate prize and pay the most in points.

 

[Roo]

Yeah, kinda smells a bit I reckon. Almost as much as splitting the races into stages.

I'm OK with drivers scoring points for things like qualifying so long as pole position scores the most.
I'm even fine with points for setting the fastest lap of the race, leading a lap of the race or leading the most laps of the race.
What should not be possible in any way at all, is for someone to end up with more points than the winner of the race. That should always be the ultimate prize and pay the most in points.

In fairness to NASCAR the events of last weekend are the only possible combination that can allow someone to score more points than the winner; the points system has a 20 point gap from 1st to 2nd, then a 1 point gap from 2nd down, so winning does give a healthy points advantage.

Do you follow the WRC at all? The points system they've got at the moment means the points scored often bears little resemblance to the finishing order.

 

[Pete05]

In fairness to NASCAR the events of last weekend are the only possible combination that can allow someone to score more points than the winner; the points system has a 20 point gap from 1st to 2nd, then a 1 point gap from 2nd down, so winning does give a healthy points advantage.

Do you follow the WRC at all? The points system they've got at the moment means the points scored often bears little resemblance to the finishing order.

I've followed the WRC since the final year of Gtoup B, admittedly at differing levels of commitment.
I used to buy Autosport magazine every week, and others, but not just for the WRC, and we used to get a 1 hr TV review after every round, but if I didn't follow the YouTube channel nowadays, I wouldn't have a clue what's going on.
I've been more dedicated in 2025/26 thanks to Taylor Gill just missing the WRC3 title and having a limited program for this year in WRC2.
Unfortunately, I feel like the current version of the WRC is Formula Yaris, with Hyundai playing a dutiful support role, and Ford wasting their time and money by continuing to turn up.
I'd much rather the rulemakers just adopt the WRC2 class as the main attraction for its increase in manufacturer variety and unpredictability from 2027 and move on.
As for the points and how they work, I just look at the results and points table at the end of each rally.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I've followed the WRC since the final year of Gtoup B, admittedly at differing levels of commitment.
I used to buy Autosport magazine every week, and others, but not just for the WRC, and we used to get a 1 hr TV review after every round, but if I didn't follow the YouTube channel nowadays, I wouldn't have a clue what's going on.
I've been more dedicated in 2025/26 thanks to Taylor Gill just missing the WRC3 title and having a limited program for this year in WRC2.
Unfortunately, I feel like the current version of the WRC is Formula Yaris, with Hyundai playing a dutiful support role, and Ford wasting their time and money by continuing to turn up.
I'd much rather the rulemakers just adopt the WRC2 class as the main attraction for its increase in manufacturer variety and unpredictability from 2027 and move on.
As for the points and how they work, I just look at the results and points table at the end of each rally.

We won't be far off that in 2027 to be fair, although no one really knows what it's going to look like, we do know that there is a high likelihood that Rally2 and WRC27 cars will be competitive with each-other. With Hyundai even committing to a Rally2 car for their main WRC title charge next year whilst Toyota are developing a new WRC27 machine. Apparently 10 'tuners' are also registering interest in WRC27, although not many have actually committed yet.

 

[Pete05]

We won't be far off that in 2027 to be fair, although no one really knows what it's going to look like, we do know that there is a high likelihood that Rally2 and WRC27 cars will be competitive with each-other. With Hyundai even committing to a Rally2 car for their main WRC title charge next year whilst Toyota are developing a new WRC27 machine. Apparently 10 'tuners' are also registering interest in WRC27, although not many have actually committed yet.

The WRC is just crying out for a stable set of sensible regulations.
Nothing more than instability will scare away the money behind any class. That includes commitments from manufacturers, and any kind of decent media package that can be sold to sponsors for the competitors or the championship.
Extremely difficult to put forward any proposal when it's full of question marks.

 

[MIE1992]

I just noticed, there are an awful lot of iconic drivers who died an untimely death in their early 30s. Ayrton Senna, Jim Clark, and Bruce McLaren are three that I've immediately noticed.

 

[Blitz24]

I just noticed, there are an awful lot of iconic drivers who died an untimely death in their early 30s. Ayrton Senna, Jim Clark, and Bruce McLaren are three that I've immediately noticed.

Davey Allison and Fireball Roberts would also make this list. Alan Kulwicki as well. I'm not sure if he falls into the same category and of the 3, only Roberts died in a car crash (the other 2 died in air accidents).

 

[Liquid]

In the eras where death was an occupational hazard, I'd say that most drivers needed to make it to their 30s to become reputable enough to be remembered after dying whilst racing.

There must surely be a plethora of 20-somethings who are less well remembered because of their lack of comparative success.

 

[Blitz24]

In the eras where death was an occupational hazard, I'd say that most drivers needed to make it to their 30s to become reputable enough to be remembered after dying whilst racing.

There must surely be a plethora of 20-somethings who are less well remembered because of their lack of comparative success.

I can only think of one driver in that category: Greg Moore.

 

[Liquid]

Yeah, not to say that it's cut-and-dry but I meant it as a general rule.

Greg Moore is a specifically tragic fatality.

 

[Carbonox]

With GP2/F2 having turned 20 recently-ish, it's a worthy observation that in 2026, the 2006 champion Lewis Hamilton is still the most recent feeder series champion to have won the F1 title, and is also the most recent from that group to have won a GP as of recent events.

2005 champion Nico Rosberg, meanwhile, continues to be the latest first-time F1 champion with a GP2 title with his 2016 run. Norris' 2025 title did make him the first F2 graduate in 9 years to get his first on the top level, but with him and Antonelli not being champions down there, it might take yet another while for another F2 champion besides the literal first 2 to secure an F1 title.

 

[Liquid]

Famously, three F3000 champs never made it to Formula One — Jörg Müller, Bruno Junqueira and Björn Wirdheim — the other 17 all made it to the top of the pyramid. Vincenzo Sospiri was contracted as a driver and did enter the 1997 Australian and Brazilian Grands Prix.

How does GP2 stack up in that regard from a similar amount of time?

 

[MagpieRacer]

Famously, three F3000 champs never made it to Formula One — Jörg Müller, Bruno Junqueira and Björn Wirdheim — the other 17 all made it to the top of the pyramid. Vincenzo Sospiri was contracted as a driver and did enter the 1997 Australian and Brazilian Grands Prix.

How does GP2 stack up in that regard from a similar amount of time?

There were 12 seasons of GP2, 9* champions made it to F1. Just Giorgio Pantano*, Davide Valsecchi and Fabio Leimer who didn't get the chance as GP2 champions.

The champions being:
Nico Rosberg
Lewis Hamilton
Timo Glock
Nico Hulkenberg
Pastor Maldonado
Romain Grosjean
Jolyon Palmer
Stoffel Vandoorne
Pierre Gasly

*Pantano went to F1 before becoming GP2 champion, racing F1 in 2004, GP2 champ in 2008.

Similarly, 3 F2 champions haven't made it to F1, and those 3 have were champions in the last 4 years. Fornaroli, Pourchaire and Drugovich. Although with the asterisk that Fornaroli may yet get there.

 

[Roo]

And currently 3 champions from 9 seasons of F2 haven't made it to F1 - Felipe Drugovich, Théo Pourchaire and last year's champion Leonardo Fornaroli.

So 5 or 6 drivers in total haven't made it to F1 despite being GP2/F2 champion, depending on how you count Pantano.

 

[Pete05]

Famously, three F3000 champs never made it to Formula One — Jörg Müller, Bruno Junqueira and Björn Wirdheim — the other 17 all made it to the top of the pyramid. Vincenzo Sospiri was contracted as a driver and did enter the 1997 Australian and Brazilian Grands Prix.

How does GP2 stack up in that regard from a similar amount of time?

Vincenzo Sospiri and Riccardo Rosset being the two unfortunate victims of the dreadful, and sad end to Lola's involvement in Formula One.

I was working at the Albert Park circuit when word came through that the new Lola-Fords did not qualify for the race.

Neither car managed to dip below 1m40s in any session, with Sospiri being exactly five seconds slower than last "qualifier" Pedro Diniz in the Arrows-Yamaha.

Diniz with 1:35.972 was outside the 107% time of 1:35.625 but allowed to start at the discretion of the Stewards.

His time was a full second slower than 21st qualifier, Jos Verstappen, in the Tyrrell-Ford on 1:34.943.

This highlights just how far from making the grid the Lolas were.

For the record, Jacques Villeneuve put his Williams-Renault on pole position with 1:29.369, annihilating team-mate, and fellow front row starter, Heinz-Harald Frentzen's 1:31.123.

Michael Schumacher started third on 1:31.472.

The Lola cars and the team personnel made it all the way to Interlagos, Brazil for Round 2, when word came from England to pack up and come home asap.

To say the MasterCard financial backing of the Lola team was complicated, is a massive understatement.

As soon as the slightest sign of cash flow problems arose, Eric Broadley shut the doors.

 

[Liquid]

Sorry, I meant GP2/F2 as a whole given it's the same 20-year timespan as F3000 but ta for the info.

 

[Pupik]

The irony of F3000 was that it was the successor to European F2; in which no F2 champ became an F1 world champ. The best drivers seemed to be plucked right from success in European or British F3.

I think Rubens Barrichello was the most successful F3000 champ to make in F1? Though Jean Alesi was the first F3000 champ to win an F1 race.

 

[Pete05]

Money talks louder than a driver's skill set.