Stick shift is a massive unfair advantage

  • Thread starter T_revisio
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T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Is there any point in attempting to be competitive in the 86GT, in the current fia nations and race c, without stick shift ?

Watching replays, it seems like a massive unfair advantage, a whole second per lap at least lost just on gear changes comparing to non stick shift users.

Comparing to the ds4 controller “oh you want to change gear, ok, let me see if that is possible, oh yeah, here it is” type gear change on the GT86, the stick shift gear change is instant, so why bother trying to win (I am talking A dr and above), unless you have the stick shifter?

If I had time, I would do a comparison video, just look at the top time replays and it is obviously a massive unfair advantage to have stick shift. Why??? It just discourages many from playing.
 
38,463
Australia
The Bronx
Is there any point in attempting to be competitive in the 86GT, in the current fia nations and race c, without stick shift ?

Watching replays, it seems like a massive unfair advantage, a whole second per lap at least lost just on gear changes comparing to non stick shift users.

Comparing to the ds4 controller “oh you want to change gear, ok, let me see if that is possible, oh yeah, here it is” type gear change on the GT86, the stick shift gear change is instant, so why bother trying to win (I am talking A dr and above), unless you have the stick shifter?

If I had time, I would do a comparison video, just look at the top time replays and it is obviously a massive unfair advantage to have stick shift. Why??? It just discourages many from playing.
I'm a DS4 user, got a top 10 time in Asia. 2:05.423.
Top is in the 4 second range. I didn't think I'd even be close. I'm not a fast player.

Finished 2nd in a race just then. Tyres were the main culprit. Car feels good. I love the track. Maybe that has something to do with it.
There's got to be DS4 users that can beat a shifter, fair and square.
 

TonyJZX

(Banned)
3,945
Australia
Australia
This nothing new. Fastest should be a wheel and paddles.

You only use a shifter if you want the fun of the clutch and the stick.
 

TonyJZX

(Banned)
3,945
Australia
Australia
Be under no illusions, there's no fairness or parity here or anywhere.

If you have talent and/or an awesome wheel and setup then you will get the times.

Over here a TGT is about $1,000 (I get that its as low as $700 on amazon... great, we cant buy it from Amazon US... also our $1,000 aud is pretty much $700 us anyway)... against a $300 wheel like my G29 and its dinky 6 spd shifter of course you're going to lose out.

I play for fun. I dont sweat those nth degree things.
 
421
Turkey
Turkey
talhaONE
How about when H shifter guy miss a gear ?

And they need to time the clutch not too fast nor not too slow.

The percentage to miss a gear is very high as I experience it.

Missing gears doesnt happen after you learn the track with that car. You gotta be inexperienced if you missing gears.
 

zzz_pt

Premium
8,097
Germany
Porto living in Hamburg
zzz_pt
Yes, stick shifter is faster. When Race A around Tsukuba with the GT86 was on a few weeks ago, you could gain up to 1 second per lap with a stick shift (compared to paddles). 1 sec around Tsukuba is a lot.

I have no idea why PD would put this car in a FIA race. :dunce: At the top, differences will be made between who's using a shifter vs who isn't for the most part.

Comparisons to different wheels makes no sense. There are people beating WR times with a T150 (IOF_RACING) or with a G29. You don't need a 1000€ wheel to be faster. Maybe the FFB is better but the difference doesn't make you 1sec faster per lap.
 
9
United States
United States
parkman2_0
Well for starters, using a clutch and h-pattern is more difficult and those who do should be rewarded for that extra difficulty and realism imo. A few things that make it more difficult is the fact you have to take your hand off the wheel to downshift in the braking zones which is typically also when you're turning in. You also are not being able to brake with your left foot when using heel & toe to match the revs. I found it way more difficult to drive using the H-pattern for the B race two weeks ago featuring the 997 GT3 on the Nurburgring, but it was worth it to me just for realism's sake.

The one thing I will say *IS* unfair imo is when people use the h-pattern for upshifts but paddles for downshifts... Why Polyphony allows you to use them interchangeably, I do not know.. but it's the real driving simulator eh? ;)
 
1,355
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Well for starters, using a clutch and h-pattern is more difficult and those who do should be rewarded for that extra difficulty and realism imo. A few things that make it more difficult is the fact you have to take your hand off the wheel to downshift in the braking zones which is typically also when you're turning in. You also are not being able to brake with your left foot when using heel & toe to match the revs. I found it way more difficult to drive using the H-pattern for the B race two weeks ago featuring the 997 GT3 on the Nurburgring, but it was worth it to me just for realism's sake.

The one thing I will say *IS* unfair imo is when people use the h-pattern for upshifts but paddles for downshifts... Why Polyphony allows you to use them interchangeably, I do not know.. but it's the real driving simulator eh? ;)

The problem is that not everyone has the chance to attempt to use a shifter and clutch. If it was available for everyone, and it was quicker, then it would be fair.

For example, manual gearing being better than auto gearing is fine because the option to manually shift is available for everyone. But not everyone has the option (and money/care) to have much quicker shifting
 
622
Malaysia
Malaysia
bazet_mpower
The one thing I will say *IS* unfair imo is when people use the h-pattern for upshifts but paddles for downshifts... Why Polyphony allows you to use them interchangeably, I do not know.. but it's the real driving simulator eh? ;)

agreed...what are they thinking ? kids ?
 
1,372
United Kingdom
Oxford, UK
doc-shipman
You also are not being able to brake with your left foot when using heel & toe to match the revs.

Sorry, what now? Am I misunderstanding your technique or something?

As someone who drives manual cars on track, can I please ask WTF are you doing trying to brake with your left foot...? Especially when you claim to want realism?

When driving using a wheel setup I still brake with my right foot, as that's how you drive a real car... Why would you ever use your left foot to brake - even when playing a simulator?!

EDIT: To clarify, I do know what left-foot-braking is, however heel-n-toe doesn't interrupt this as left foot braking is mid-corner to tuck the nose in, not under deceleration
 
Last edited:
622
Malaysia
Malaysia
bazet_mpower
Left foot braking on hidraulic based brake is so wierd. When you drive a H shifter manual car, by default , you'll use right foot to brake.

Unless you're Colin McRae
 

MikeV27

Premium
2,878
Canada
Kirkland Lake, Ontario.
MikeV27
Yes it’s faster, but the guy using a wheel and shifter is working a lot harder than a ds4 user.
 
1,107
United Kingdom
Sheffield
LewisBentley6
You guys do realise setups are open in this Nations race, and that the people at the top of leaderboard aren't using a H-Shifter at all, but rather have equipped the Fully Customisable Transmission which make gear changes sequential and instant... right? :lol:

Always read the Race Details
 

rono_thomas

Adrenaline Racing Community.
Premium
2,134
Wales
Wales
ARC_rono_thomas
You guys do realise setups are open in this Nations race, and that the people at the top of leaderboard aren't using a H-Shifter at all, but rather have equipped the Fully Customisable Transmission which make gear changes sequential and instant... right? :lol:

Always read the Race Details
:D
 

T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
You guys do realise setups are open in this Nations race, and that the people at the top of leaderboard aren't using a H-Shifter at all, but rather have equipped the Fully Customisable Transmission which make gear changes sequential and instant... right? :lol:

Always read the Race Details

Aha! Whoops, my bad, thanks for pointing this out.
 

ARTAsean

(Banned)
1,307
United States
United States
Aha! Whoops, my bad, thanks for pointing this out.

Ok so, that being said, this thread is finalized.

I just want to bring up a point about how this mindset can become a snowball effect.

For example, high-end FFB wheels have higher pedal resolutions than lower end ones. Using your mentality, me (as a G29 user) could make the argument that Fanatec wheel users have an unfair advantage because of more acute pedal control.

Fanatec wheel users can complain that PS4 Pro + 4K TV users have an unfair advantage, right?

4K users can complain that people with Adderall prescriptions have an unfair advantage!!

(please don't address any of these, it's all semantic arguments)

You see where I'm going with this? No matter your position on the totem pole, there will always be someone you perceive to have an advantage over you. You need to reconcile this in your own mind. Ask yourself, what level of dedication are you willing to be comfortable with, and what advantages are you willing to forego? That's just life, and this transcends gaming. If you feel clutch and shifter users have an indefensible advantage, well then meet them there. Don't complain about things that you can change.
 
3,059
Norway
Norway
If y’all gonna use TC, ASM and CSA on DS4, I sure think it’s fair I get to shift as fast as I want with my clutch + shifter (all aids off, ABS Weak, heel & toe downshifts). Just sayin.
TC, ASM and CSA are available for wheel users as well.

And I'm sure people who drive with these assists on a GT86 aren't complaining about a one second handicap.
 
263
senzrMY
TC, ASM and CSA are available for wheel users as well. And I'm sure people who drive with these assists on a GT86 aren't complaining about a one second handicap.

You'd be surprised. When I check Sport Mode replays, lots of high DR drivers are using aids, just to get every last advantage. Most are probably on DS4, but I'm sure some wheel users are squeezing some tenths with CSA on. To each his own, and I do make it tougher for myself without aids. But I think the risk of mis-shifting with GTS's flawed clutch model kinda offsets the advantage in shift speed.
 

T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I was wrong about this, regarding the Fia nations race, as Mclaren kindly pointed out, settings can be adjusted in that one, so it is no advantage to use the shifter there.

The current race c does not have adjustable settings however and therefore the shifter is still an advantage there, unless anyone knows how to replicate the clutch / stickshift benefit using ds4 or a non stick wheel pedal setup, e.g. by lifting off during the gear change?
 
3,878
Australia
Australia
It does make Race C, and previously Tsukuba with the 86, very one sided. At least with other cars, a DS4 user could be theoretically as fast as a wheel user, if their inputs were smooth enough.
 
2,014
United States
Azle, Texas, USA
GTP_KinLM
KinLM
This forum just goes to prove that you can’t ever make people happy. Ever.

In all the past GTs I’ve played, wheel users have complained about the time DISadvantage when using an H Pattern versus the (at the time) instant changes of using paddles or the DS4.

So now, PD incorporate a (generally reasonable, in my opinion) shift time built into using paddles/DS4 on cars that have a stick in real life, and now those users are upset about the 3% of aliens who can consistently shift faster than the game allows with paddles, despite putting themselves at a massive risk of missing gears, rev-matching poorly and locking up an axle, etc

And for those who think that this could be solved by adding a clutch option for DS4.. Forza has been trying something similar for years over on Xbox. Spoiler alert; it isn’t even and fair in that situation either (it gives an unfair advantage to pad users, but this isn’t a Forza forum so I will suggest you do your own research on the matter if you’re that curious.)



If that 2% advantage means that much to you, then save up the money and get a wheel. I’m sure used G29s are at least reasonable in price, and accessible to buy to most of the world.

Me, I don’t really care. I’d rather not make excuses. I just focus on going as fast as I can.

If somebody spends $1,000 on an expensive wheel setup and goes through the trouble to master the (horrid) clutch model in this game, and get really good at flying around while rowing through the gears, all to be 0.005 seconds faster than me, then so be it.
 
745
Antarctica
Antarctica
Its true that players with a shifter are quicker in Race C but I'm not that sure the difference is a full second around Fuji.

The transition from 2nd to 3rd is the worst and its only necessary at one place in the lap, two if you want to drop down at the first corner.

Carry enough speed to keep it in 3rd around the rest of the lap and the time loss isn't so bad. Mind you, shifter players will still gain a little on you down the straights and if I'd managed to do a proper start I reckon I'd find they'd be miles ahead there too.
 
263
senzrMY
...unless anyone knows how to replicate the clutch / stickshift benefit using ds4 or a non stick wheel pedal setup, e.g. by lifting off during the gear change?

Lifting off the throttle in between shifts only helps if there's wheelspin while in gear.