Stick shift is a massive unfair advantage

  • Thread starter T_revisio
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1,372
United Kingdom
Oxford, UK
doc-shipman
I agree with what has been said before - in so much that unless you are one of the aliens battling it out at the top, what does it really matter?

I am as fast as I am, the only thing I am keen to improve in all this is myself - if the game glitched and allowed me to add 30bhp in a Sport mode race I honestly wouldn't do it. What is the sense in 'winning' when you have to resort to whatever means necessary?

OK, it might appear unfair if someone can shift faster than you can, but realistically - unless you're fighting for the top 10 spots globally - you'll lose more time through small mistakes around a lap or race than you will from shifting. I've mis-timed a brake point, missed an apex and unsettled the car through weight transfer enough to cost me well over a second a lap, so would being able to shift gears a teeny tiny bit quicker make the difference? No.

Likewise, I have had maybe one or two races where I've been within the milliseconds to another car and then - and only then - might the shifting have made a difference to my race position.

The only thing I will say is that some cars have horribly long shifts, which are unrealistic. The cars in question (MX5 and GT86 stick out to me) I have driven and can easily shift gear faster without trying. Try to shift quickly and it's even further away from realistic.
 
3
United States
California
parkman
Sorry, what now? Am I misunderstanding your technique or something?

As someone who drives manual cars on track, can I please ask WTF are you doing trying to brake with your left foot...? Especially when you claim to want realism?

When driving using a wheel setup I still brake with my right foot, as that's how you drive a real car... Why would you ever use your left foot to brake - even when playing a simulator?!

EDIT: To clarify, I do know what left-foot-braking is, however heel-n-toe doesn't interrupt this as left foot braking is mid-corner to tuck the nose in, not under deceleration

Sorry if the way I wrote it wasn't clear, I'm saying that I *can't* left foot brake with a manual car like I do with a car with paddles. Ultimately I believe it's faster to use both feet for brake/throttle transitions, you can see Lewis Hamilton does this the entire time in his AMG GT3 Nurburgring GP tutorial video. (As he would of course, in an F1 car)
 
3
United States
California
parkman
You guys do realise setups are open in this Nations race, and that the people at the top of leaderboard aren't using a H-Shifter at all, but rather have equipped the Fully Customisable Transmission which make gear changes sequential and instant... right? :lol:

Always read the Race Details

Actually I didn't know that haha! However, that's only relevant for the Nation's Race right? All the daily races with manual cars have been fixed, which would eliminate that option.
 
1,324
Canada
Toronto
You'd be surprised. When I check Sport Mode replays, lots of high DR drivers are using aids, just to get every last advantage. Most are probably on DS4, but I'm sure some wheel users are squeezing some tenths with CSA on. To each his own, and I do make it tougher for myself without aids. But I think the risk of mis-shifting with GTS's flawed clutch model kinda offsets the advantage in shift speed.

If by high level you mean random DR A than sure.

Anyone who takes the competition seriously has TCS and ASM off because it's faster (save very unusual situations with TCS on low for tire management) and CSA off because FIA races require no aids.

This coming from somebody who's driven with both a DS4 and a wheel, complaining about people who are using aids like you're some kindve purist who deserves extra rewards for not using aids and driving in cockpit cam is just ridiculous.
 
263
senzrMY
...complaining about people who are using aids like you're some kindve purist who deserves extra rewards for not using aids and driving in cockpit cam is just ridiculous.

That's not what I said. I said that IMO, not using aids and the added risk of mis-shifting kinda offsets the time advantage of using a shifter. Anyhow, this debate of who should use whatever can keep going forever. I'm fine with people using aids when I don't. But some aren't fine that some of us use shifters when they don't. I'm merely suggesting that those who use the shifter in the way it's meant to be used (without paddles for downshifting) are at risk of losing time in a way that those shifting with paddles won't. (Not to mention the extra physical effort + coordination required to operate the clutch + shifter...that's gotta count for something, right?)
 
3
United States
California
parkman
That's not what I said. I said that IMO, not using aids and the added risk of mis-shifting kinda offsets the time advantage of using a shifter. Anyhow, this debate of who should use whatever can keep going forever. I'm fine with people using aids when I don't. But some aren't fine that some of us use shifters when they don't. I'm merely suggesting that those who use the shifter in the way it's meant to be used (without paddles for downshifting) are at risk of losing time in a way that those shifting with paddles won't. (Not to mention the extra physical effort + coordination required to operate the clutch + shifter...that's gotta count for something, right?)

I agree, couldn't have said it any better. Whether one chooses to or not, it certainly requires more of the driver to row your own gears, and if the car has a manual transmission in real life, then it's also certainly more realistic to do so. Does that mean everyone has to do that? No, of course not.. but I will. :D:cheers:
 
858
United Kingdom
Uk
TheLeggacy
It might give a slight advantage in terms of acceleration but I just managed to shave 3 tenths if my time in race C (Fuji/GT 86) using the paddles. You have to be well practiced with your footwork to get a real advantage from the H pattern shift. If you miss a shift it’s a very big disadvantage, I’ve done it a few times at the start of a race and it’s not easy to recover.
 
2,807
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
Err, let me just get this right, so far everybody thinks it’s totally fine to be able to buy an unfair advantage? I guess it adds to the simulation of real racing, right? #facepalm

It's a racing game so I believe it should be faster with a wheel and pedals. You dont need to spend a lot, there are set ups that cost far less than the PS4 does. If you playing a flight simulator would you expect to have an advantage using a flight joystick? As far as I am aware PD already builds a lot of "magic" into the DS4 that can help it be competitive and even advantageous to wheels in some aspects. Just the same as I would expect someone to have an advantage over me by using a direct drive wheel vs my belted wheel.
 
858
United Kingdom
Uk
TheLeggacy
It's a racing game so I believe it should be faster with a wheel and pedals. You dont need to spend a lot, there are set ups that cost far less than the PS4 does. If you playing a flight simulator would you expect to have an advantage using a flight joystick? As far as I am aware PD already builds a lot of "magic" into the DS4 that can help it be competitive and even advantageous to wheels in some aspects. Just the same as I would expect someone to have an advantage over me by using a direct drive wheel vs my belted wheel.

Wasn’t one of the players who made it through to the Gts finals at the red bull hangar usually a pad player? I seem to remember the commentators saying something about it. I suppose that proves that the pad isn’t a massive disadvantage.
 
2,807
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
Wasn’t one of the players who made it through to the Gts finals at the red bull hangar usually a pad player? I seem to remember the commentators saying something about it. I suppose that proves that the pad isn’t a massive disadvantage.

I heard the same thing. I think it has been more than proven that DS4 users can be just as fast as wheel users with the way the game is made. I would expect the person going from a pad to a wheel is going to require much more time than is available at the competition to be competitive though, the transition is not a quick one. There were many unhappy people who bought wheels and found out they were slower than on the DS4 for the first couple of weeks.
 

T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
This thread is not about wheel vs pad, it’s about the advantage of using the shifter add on when driving in a road car like the n200 gt86, when settings are fixed.

What I would say is that wheel and pad are very closely matched in gt sport, compared to other racing games, like project cars. I have both ds4 and tgt and it depends on the car and track which works best for me. In general, the wheel does appear to have a capability advantage with the fast turn in / chucking it in to tight corners, like hairpins like at Suzuka, but it is also easier to lose the back end without any chance of recovering it, when using the wheel.
 
2,807
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
This thread is not about wheel vs pad, it’s about the advantage of using the shifter add on when driving in a road car like the n200 gt86, when settings are fixed.

What I would say is that wheel and pad are very closely matched in gt sport, compared to other racing games, like project cars. I have both ds4 and tgt and it depends on the car and track which works best for me. In general, the wheel does appear to have a capability advantage with the fast turn in / chucking it in to tight corners, like hairpins like at Suzuka, but it is also easier to lose the back end without any chance of recovering it, when using the wheel.

Yeah, unfortunately you cant have one without the other as you need a wheel to use a shifter. If someone has heel and toe to gain advantage they deserve to be faster just for the practice and skill involved. There is also risk involved, I have yet to miss a gear using an auto or paddles. At any rate I still believe that wheel users should have a advantage using a wheel to play a driving game but that appears not to necessarily be the case with GTS.
 
263
senzrMY
I seem to be having trouble getting into 2nd gear off the line. It’s putting me off using shifter.

That could be because of wheelspin. If you’re using a pad/paddles, it won’t go into gear until the wheels stop spinning. Lifting off the gas in between shifts might help.
 
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858
United Kingdom
Uk
TheLeggacy
Clutch longer for some guarantee to upshift/downshift

Yeah, I figure I’m just getting over excited and out of sync. I’ve checked the calibration of my TH8 on a pc and it seems fine. I wondered if changing the gate point on the setup software would help or even work when it was plugged back into the PS4 (it says the calibration settings are saved on the stick) but I left it just in case it didn’t work or made it worse.
 
858
United Kingdom
Uk
TheLeggacy
That could be because of wheelspom. If you’re using a pad/paddles, it won’t go into gear until the wheels stop spinning. Lifting off the gas in between shifts might help.
I always lift and shift with the shifter, who the hell flat shifts?
 
263
senzrMY
Yeah, I figure I’m just getting over excited and out of sync. I’ve checked the calibration of my TH8 on a pc and it seems fine. I wondered if changing the gate point on the setup software would help or even work when it was plugged back into the PS4 (it says the calibration settings are saved on the stick) but I left it just in case it didn’t work or made it worse.

I don’t think PC calibration settings carry over to PS4. Anyhow, remember to get in gear BEFORE releasing the clutch. GT Sport clutch modelling is very strict about this. Releasing the clutch any sooner results in a mis-shift.
 
2,807
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
That’s the thing...you’ll NEVER miss a gear with auto and paddles. With a clutch and shifter, the risk is always there.

Exactly my point. Its the good old risk vs reward thing, with the risk of missing a shift you may gain time in gear changes.