[Still a Rumour.] Ferrari may bail out Sauber to pave way for Alfa Romeo return

Alfa Romeo's return to F1 will be:


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Liquid

Fission Mailed
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Bratvegas
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So what if Moldova F1 is owned by Moldovans, financed by Moldovans, and only employs Moldovans, but is based in Britain because the factory there is the best available? Are they still British?

Yep. That's quite an extreme example but in this instance where they're from is irrelevant. Where they are is what counts. A British team with Moldovan roots.

How Indian is Force India? I believe they have an Indian licence.
How German are Mercedes-Benz?

Point being, if Alfa Romeo took over Sauber and stayed in Hinwil they'd still be a Swiss team regardless of what racing licence they purchase.
 
9,401
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mustafur
Well they could always do what BMW did and have 2 bases.

Turin is right next to Switzerland anyway so it would be no issue.
 

prisonermonkeys

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Where they are is what counts. A British team with Moldovan roots.
So even if the facilities were built in Britain especially for the Moldovan team by the Moldovan team, the team is British simply because the building is on British soil?

I'm sorry, but that does not compute.
 

Liquid

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So even if the facilities were built in Britain especially for the Moldovan team by the Moldovan team, the team is British simply because the building is on British soil?

I'm sorry, but that does not compute.

I'd concede that I'd probably be wrong on that point if there was such a team but there isn't, is there?

It doesn't change the fact that the teams I mentioned purchasing licences for nationalistic reasons like Mercedes-Benz and Force India doesn't change the fact that their teams are British and Alfa Romeo would be Swiss if they stayed in Hinwil, if they even do decide to purchase them at all. I see no concrete evidence that it's going to happen.
 

prisonermonkeys

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It doesn't change the fact that the teams I mentioned purchasing licences for nationalistic reasons like Mercedes-Benz
Do you honestly think that Mercedes' decision to compete as a German team has to do with German nationalism? Or is it because the team is wholly owned by Mercedes-Benz, globally recognised as a German car manufacturer?

Teams base themselves in Britain because that's where the knowledge and expertise is to be found. That's where the suppliers are based. That's where the infrastructure is to be found. Being based in Britain means running out of Heathrow and Gatwick, two of the most accessible points on the face of the earth. Say I want to set up a team in Australia and compete as an Australian team. Every single race (except Melbourne) becomes a flyaway race then.

Look at Toyota - one of the mistakes they made was to set up in Cologne. It was where Team Toyota Europe were based, but they had trouble attracting staff and finding suppliers. The same thing happened with USF1, who established a forward base in Alcañiz.

I have heard England referred to as motorsport's Silicone Valley. And I think it's an apt comparison - the knowledge, resource, supplies and experience are all there. If you were a new team, why wouldn't you set up there? But if you do, you shouldn't be forced to identify yourself as British.
 
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Given that money is above all else in F1 that's probably the most important thing in deciding nationality - Mercedes gets German money, thus it's a German team. :P

Seriously though it's not really a black and white thing is it? If when Minardi became Toro Rosso they had moved to live with Red Bull, and most (but not all) of the staff members moved with them, sure they could probably still register as Italian - but it certainly would be a less Italian team, no?
 
20,678
TenEightyOne
TenEightyOne
Given that money is above all else in F1 that's probably the most important thing in deciding nationality - Mercedes gets German money, thus it's a German team. :P

That makes no sense. Williams, founded in Britain, run by Brits, built in Britain by Brits, Brit Brit Brit etc., they're Dutch/Italian? Seems odd.
 
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It is safe to say he knows a hell of a lot more about motorsport than you or I do and if he is connecting the dots and coming to this conclusion then it might make some sense to pay attention to that.

Who is he? I've never heard of him. Anyway there is a difference between connecting dots and saying it could happen and having an actual source to suggest it actually might be. I've not seen one.
 
21,318
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So his only direct connection to F1 is work experience as a 16 year old? Sorry if I then find it hard to believe he has any sort of inside knowledge on the inner workings of F1 today. Like I said, many people have theorised on various possible Alfa deals after Marchionne's words but there is still no source whatsoever for this Sauber tie-up. One guy saying it could happen is not a source.
 
6,112
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So his only direct connection to F1 is work experience as a 16 year old? Sorry if I then find it hard to believe he has any sort of inside knowledge on the inner workings of F1 today. Like I said, many people have theorised on various possible Alfa deals after Marchionne's words but there is still no source whatsoever for this Sauber tie-up. One guy saying it could happen is not a source.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/
 
20,678
TenEightyOne
TenEightyOne
It is safe to say he knows a hell of a lot more about motorsport than you or I do and if he is connecting the dots and coming to this conclusion then it might make some sense to pay attention to that.

Not really, at least not according to the CV linked above. He did a week off school at age 16 which he spent in the Williams loom department. For the following two years he took a further-ed (under 18s) certificate in Motorsport Engineering. There's no mention of him progressing to anything further other than writing things down on the internets.

He certainly has credible motorsport knowledge but by no means is he any sort of authority on F1 - especially the inner machinations of Ferrari's next takeover.
 
22,532
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HamiltonMP427
Hope it happens, I'm getting tired of mismanaged independent outfits doing what's been done, when a manufacture serves more to the sport. I mean Peter did a great job, but I feel Monisha snaked her way in with a financial background and yet fails the team.
 
6,112
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Not really, at least not according to the CV linked above. He did a week off school at age 16 which he spent in the Williams loom department. For the following two years he took a further-ed (under 18s) certificate in Motorsport Engineering. There's no mention of him progressing to anything further other than writing things down on the internets.

He certainly has credible motorsport knowledge but by no means is he any sort of authority on F1 - especially the inner machinations of Ferrari's next takeover.
I look forward to reading PM's new race car engineering magazine and I will start writing mine as soon as I get done arguing with all of the other "experts" in this thread like you and Samus.;)
 
22,532
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HamiltonMP427
As much as i like the idea of seeing Alfa back in F1, i can't help but think that having another manufacturer taking over a fairly long established privateer team, is a bad thing in the long run. As soon as the boardroom deems their F1 expenditure as a unnecessary drain of money and is unable to sell the team on, then we loose another team.

At the rate Sauber is going and rumored to be in (supposedly might not even finish out the season due to money woes), what does it matter in the end. You'll lose them due to liquidation like two of the 2010 teams and nearly Manor. Or you'll lose them for selling out to a big manufacture that at a pen stroke three years from now says, "were done".
 
2,904
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pj-gm
PJwasHere876
Hope it happens, I'm getting tired of mismanaged independent outfits doing what's been done, when a manufacture serves more to the sport. I mean Peter did a great job, but I feel Monisha snaked her way in with a financial background and yet fails the team.
I wouldn't call Sauber mismanaged really. They are just falling victim to the ridiculously lopsided prize money payment of F1. They've just been losing key staff over the past couple years and plunging into more and more debt since losing BMW and the sponsorship that came with them.
 
22,532
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HamiltonMP427
I wouldn't call Sauber mismanaged really. They are just falling victim to the ridiculously lopsided prize money payment of F1. They've just been losing key staff over the past couple years and plunging into more and more debt since losing BMW and the sponsorship that came with them.

That's not really valid, we've known the system for several years. When teams like FI were finishing lower than Sauber and by default getting less money then them, they still found a way to gain ground and leap from them as they have for the past few years now. If a teams success in moving up the grid to win more prize money in hopes to be there next season...they probably shouldn't be there or more so should be engineering the hell out of cars to see themselves there.

It's funny at one time Bob seemed as serious and driven about the EU complaint as Monisha, and from the perspective of those looking in it just seems to be her banging the war drum. Sure he and his team are still on board with the chance the EU many rule in their favor but they've seemed to long move on. Same with Tost when he showed some mutual support. Perhaps if she focused more on the team side of things GP to GP (not missing events during the weekend), we wouldn't see such a year to year issue of will Sauber survive.
 
21,318
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I look forward to reading PM's new race car engineering magazine and I will start writing mine as soon as I get done arguing with all of the other "experts" in this thread like you and Samus.;)

All i'm looking for is a reason to believe this person has any credibility to back this up as anything but an idea or prediction on his behalf. All you've given so far is his CV and that he writes F1 articles, as do thousands of other people.

So, when he put forward this notion did he actually say it was something he believed could be happening based on a source in the paddock, or was it just his idea? Nothing wrong with it just being his idea but that wouldn't give any credibility towards it actually happening than if I proposed it as a possibility.
 
20,678
TenEightyOne
TenEightyOne
I look forward to reading PM's new race car engineering magazine and I will start writing mine as soon as I get done arguing with all of the other "experts" in this thread like you and Samus.;)

The guy doesn't write for paper magazines, "Stockcar Engineering" is a free e-zine... more web opinion ;)

I wouldn't call Sauber mismanaged really.

Of course not, they signed all those drivers by accident most probably. There's another 10m hole in their budget.
 
2,904
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pj-gm
PJwasHere876
That's not really valid, we've known the system for several years. When teams like FI were finishing lower than Sauber and by default getting less money then them, they still found a way to gain ground and leap from them as they have for the past few years now. If a teams success in moving up the grid to win more prize money in hopes to be there next season...they probably shouldn't be there or more so should be engineering the hell out of cars to see themselves there.

It's funny at one time Bob seemed as serious and driven about the EU complaint as Monisha, and from the perspective of those looking in it just seems to be her banging the war drum. Sure he and his team are still on board with the chance the EU many rule in their favor but they've seemed to long move on. Same with Tost when he showed some mutual support. Perhaps if she focused more on the team side of things GP to GP (not missing events during the weekend), we wouldn't see such a year to year issue of will Sauber survive.
The difference here is that FI have billionaire backing, so despite this they can more effectively absorb their own debts. FI's days are probably numbered as well considering the ludicrous debt Vijay Mallya is in. Sauber are just the next victim after Caterham and Hispania, teams that could survive on the money Ferrari get just for showing up.
 
22,532
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HamiltonMP427
The difference here is that FI have billionaire backing, so despite this they can more effectively absorb their own debts. FI's days are probably numbered as well considering the ludicrous debt Vijay Mallya is in. Sauber are just the next victim after Caterham and Hispania, teams that could survive on the money Ferrari get just for showing up.

No they don't. Sahara is all but bust, and every day the India times can't go with out writing an article on Vijay and how he has a large debt he's still yet to pay. He already lost Kingfisher the airliner because F1 was more important to him. There has been efforts to try and sell portions to clear debts that have yet to come to fruition and they were just as much of an up in the air deal as Sauber this time last year. Difference is the CVC payout clearly.

They couldn't survive, Fernandes ran the team in the ground, don't give him credit he doesn't deserve and Hispania had almost had a many backers as defunct teams. How does any of this show a solid foundation for which a team can grow and somewhat thrive or at least make it through the process each passing year? You blame the sport but let's take some time to get some perspective on who these groups actually were. Is F1 a problem sure, but it only shows exponentially when the team itself isn't planned out for the future.
 

prisonermonkeys

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It is safe to say he knows a hell of a lot more about motorsport than you or I do and if he is connecting the dots and coming to this conclusion then it might make some sense to pay attention to that.
Except that the entire piece is speculative.
 
20,678
TenEightyOne
TenEightyOne
They couldn't survive, Fernandes ran the team in the ground, don't give him credit he doesn't deserve and Hispania had almost had a many backers as defunct teams. How does any of this show a solid foundation for which a team can grow and somewhat thrive or at least make it through the process each passing year? You blame the sport but let's take some time to get some perspective on who these groups actually were. Is F1 a problem sure, but it only shows exponentially when the team itself isn't planned out for the future.

Bernie puts it very very simply, and he's right. Teams in trouble have promised to spend more than they knew they had coming in. It really is that simple.

The question begged by that, of course, is how much are teams having to gamble on points money?
 
22,532
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HamiltonMP427
Bernie puts it very very simply, and he's right. Teams in trouble have promised to spend more than they knew they had coming in. It really is that simple.

The question begged by that, of course, is how much are teams having to gamble on points money?

Depends really on how good they think they can design a car. Sauber hasn't done anything greatly experimental or revolutionary in some years. I mean when FI said they'd go full force with a B-Spec car they were serious and it more or less worked out especially on an already good foundation. In the end this is probably the one and only thing I agree with the old fool about.

You know and what kills me here, is a group like Manor can form a technical alliance, and so can HAAS. But due to pride and visions of how F1 should be they're too good for this. In fact I recall Sauber and Williams being one of the teams that had issue with satellite teams...gee should we look at HAAS's position again?
 
9,401
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Western Sydney
mustafur
I would like to see the HAAS budget before comparing them to other teams.

either way, the current structure in place basically has each team risk their existence to make profit, where as once your higher up in the midfield then it's a bit easier to profit.

If F1 doesn't want Customer cars then it has to share out the money better or it's not going to work.
 
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