Stop Whaling - PETITION!

1. I just don't like the killing of animals (unless they are bred for a particular reason). I can't even kill a little spider without feeling bad about it later.

2. I don't like extinction (of anything, not just animals).

3. This topic was meant to be about the petition, not my opinion of it.
 
Mustang-man
1. I just don't like the killing of animals (unless they are bred for a particular reason). I can't even kill a little spider without feeling bad about it later.

Oooh, a Jainist :D

(Jainists sweep the ground ahead of them as they walk, so they do not kill or injure any small creatures in their path. They also exclude root vegetables from their diet, as they believe root vegetables have an infinite number of souls...)

So anyway. Let's just analyse this one for a moment. You don't like the killing of animals. Mmmmokay, that's a viewpoint, I suppose. But then you add on "unless they are bred for a particular reason"...

Can we assume you are NOT a vegetarian?

It also seems that you're quite happy to support the killing of cows, pigs, horses, sheep, frogs, snails, chickens, turkeys, geese, deer, hundreds of different types of fish and dogs, because they're bred for that particular reason, but killing one whale on the back of all this slaughtering isn't seemly.

What have you got against dogs?


I also note that the game on the petition site involves whales killing hundreds of humans as "revenge". What have you got against humans?


Mustang-man
2. I don't like extinction (of anything, not just animals).

What else can you extinguish? Fire, I suppose.

That aside, the Earth has been around for 4,500,000,000 years now. In that time 99.9% of all species ever to have existed have become extinct. Why does this particular one matter?


Mustang-man
3. This topic was meant to be about the petition, not my opinion of it.

Surely that's advertising an external website and against the AUP/ToS then?
 
Oooh, a Jainist :D
- Nope.

(Jainists sweep the ground ahead of them as they walk, so they do not kill or injure any small creatures in their path. They also exclude root vegetables from their diet, as they believe root vegetables have an infinite number of souls...)
- 1. Don't do that. 2. Don't do that either.

So anyway. Let's just analyse this one for a moment. You don't like the killing of animals. Mmmmokay, that's a viewpoint, I suppose. But then you add on "unless they are bred for a particular reason"...
- i.e. for food.

Can we assume you are NOT a vegetarian?
- Most certainly not.

It also seems that you're quite happy to support the killing of cows, pigs, horses, sheep, frogs, snails, chickens, turkeys, geese, deer, hundreds of different types of fish and dogs, because they're bred for that particular reason, but killing one whale on the back of all this slaughtering isn't seemly.
- If that whale happens to be endangered. If it were a turkey instead that was an endangered species i'd feel the same way.

What have you got against dogs?
- Plenty. But nothing relevant for this topic.

I also note that the game on the petition site involves whales killing hundreds of humans as "revenge". What have you got against humans?
- Never paid the game a second glance - i only went to the site for the petition.

What else can you extinguish? Fire, I suppose.
- :odd:

That aside, the Earth has been around for 4,500,000,000 years now. In that time 99.9% of all species ever to have existed have become extinct. Why does this particular one matter?
- Because we can prevent it. Just like we can, and possibly could prevent other extinctions from happening.

Surely that's advertising an external website and against the AUP/ToS then?
- Shock. Horror. I can hear the police sirens already.

If you carry this on in this topic then you'll be talking to yourself, PM me if you're really so bored that you want to continue this.
 
Mustang-man
So anyway. Let's just analyse this one for a moment. You don't like the killing of animals. Mmmmokay, that's a viewpoint, I suppose. But then you add on "unless they are bred for a particular reason"...
- i.e. for food.

Can we assume you are NOT a vegetarian?
- Most certainly not.

It also seems that you're quite happy to support the killing of cows, pigs, horses, sheep, frogs, snails, chickens, turkeys, geese, deer, hundreds of different types of fish and dogs, because they're bred for that particular reason, but killing one whale on the back of all this slaughtering isn't seemly.
- If that whale happens to be endangered. If it were a turkey instead that was an endangered species i'd feel the same way.

What have you got against dogs?
- Plenty. But nothing relevant for this topic.

That aside, the Earth has been around for 4,500,000,000 years now. In that time 99.9% of all species ever to have existed have become extinct. Why does this particular one matter?
- Because we can prevent it. Just like we can, and possibly could prevent other extinctions from happening.

ALL species are endangered. ALL of them, including us. They WILL all die - either because of us, or other animals, or themselves, or giant flaming meteorites or when the Sun goes nova.

Singling out particular species for your attention is... just weird. Either they're ALL worthy of it, or none are. It's also interesting that you eat meat and see nothing wrong with it, but are aghast at the thought of another culture eating a different one (that is to say "whalemeat"). Do you not see the conflict inherent in this?


Mustang-man
If you carry this on in this topic then you'll be talking to yourself, PM me if you're really so bored that you want to continue this.

I didn't think my questioning your opinion would be enough to drive you off. Perhaps you're not that secure in it after all?
 
Ok, I'll start again from scratch.

The question to be asked is 'Why is it necessary to eat whales?' Just because you're bored with beef, chicken, lamb doesn't automatically give you the right to take something out of it's natual habitat and kill it.

Yes, I hear it now. 'But Casio! How is killing a whale for whale meat any different to killing a cow, chicken or sheep, for beef, chicken or lamb meat!?'. It is, it's a completely different situation. These animals are sustainable, they are bred for this purpose.

Lets go to the extreme. Say I came into your house, killed your children, and ate them. What would you say about that? Would you say 'Oh well, I guess either we're ALL worthy of it, or none are?, (Yes, I edited that slightly). I doubt it.

Also, I admit, I am bias. As I work with animals as an occupation.
 
I think what Famine is trying to say is who really cares if a particular species goes extinct? Unless said species going extinct would have a major, adverse effect on the ecosystem, why should we be concerned? Species go extinct all the time. Yes, even before us wicked humans started doing things like clear cut logging for instance. Species go extinct because they cannot cope with their changing environment. Nature favours those who can adapt. Those who can't, will die. It's harsh, but it's reality.
 
Casio
Ok, I'll start again from scratch.

The question to be asked is 'Why is it necessary to eat whales?' Just because you're bored with beef, chicken, lamb doesn't automatically give you the right to take something out of it's natual habitat and kill it.

Yes, I hear it now. 'But Casio! How is killing a whale for whale meat any different to killing a cow, chicken or sheep, for beef, chicken or lamb meat!?'. It is, it's a completely different situation. These animals are sustainable, they are bred for this purpose.

Lets go to the extreme. Say I came into your house, killed your children, and ate them. What would you say about that? Would you say 'Oh well, I guess either we're ALL worthy of it, or none are?, (Yes, I edited that slightly). I doubt it.

Also, I admit, I am bias. As I work with animals as an occupation.

I'm glad you feel your morals are greater then the needs of countries who depend on whales for food currently and centuries past.

As far as your last comment, sign me up for some soylent GREEN!
 
r0gu3
I'm glad you feel your morals are greater then the needs of countries who depend on whales for food currently and centuries past.

As far as your last comment, sign me up for some soylent GREEN!

May I please have an example of a country that has whale as a primary food supply?
 
Casio
May I please have an example of a country that has whale as a primary food supply?

From my knowledge, Iceland and possibly Norway relied on whales as a staple food source for a long time. I can't relate to Japanese whaling history so no info on that.
 
Nobody uses whale meat as a primary food supply, except for some islanders up North who don't have very many other sources of protein they can rely on.

a6m5
Actually, I was referring to your "breeding" comment. There is no need for it, because the demand isn't that huge(hence the "delicacy" statement). I don't know about the "right" to kill it, but I wouldn't support whaling either. I get the impression that whales are friendly and definitely not "chicken-brained". I'm not into eating intelligent animals! :D I've heard that in parts of Asia, they eat dogs. :scared: My friend who was stationed in South Korea swears that he's been to a "Dog Farm", where they let you pick out a dog you want and clean it for you. He said he had some and it was alright. :yuck:

Farmed dog would probably be okay, but street dogs and wild dogs are tough. Definitely not one of the best things I've tried.

Problem with farmed meat and bred animals is that pigs are actually very very very intelligent. They may be more intelligent than dogs. We eat pig. How different is it to eat dog?

ExigeExcel
So basically you prefer something to live a bad life and die accordingly than live a good life and die badly?

:lol: exactly. :lol:

@Famine: yes, we're all going to die someday. All fine and good, but then does global destruction in the near or far future negate the relevance of life and the way we live it in the here and now? If so, then I guess we should all just go outside our doors and kill the first twenty people we see. This'll help us get to the end much sooner.

Species do go extinct. I would have no problem seeing a whale species or a bird species go extinct for natural reasons, but the fact that we're causing extinction through our actions changes things a little bit.

There are species, that through their dominance, or their invasion of the habitats of other species where they have no competitors or natural predators, wipe out dozens of other species in the process. Right now, that species is us.

The difference with us is that we can actually take action to ensure that we don't wipe out every other species on Earth that isn't of economic importance to us, or that isn't a viable renewable resource.

The preservation of biodiversity isn't a moral question, it's a question of ecological robustness. If that civilization ending meteor hits now, a lot of species die, but some may live. It's hard to tell which ones... and, let's face it, whales and other big mammals will likely be the first to go... but the more biodiversity we have remaining, the more likely the ecology can repair itself afterwards.

Also, we don't really fully understand how our ecology operates, or what certain changes will do to the environment over time. You kill off all whales... (and while you're at it, sardines, tuna, etc.) the plankton population goes berserk... CO2 and greenhouse gases plummet... wham! Instant Ice Age... ridiculous, maybe, given the state of the whale population now... but who knows?

Of course, if civilization doesn't end in a bang, but a whimper, then we might just use up or kill off so many different species that ecosystems start falling apart. Actually, that's happened already. Conservation measures in place right now are aimed at maintaining what's left, but it's hard to keep populations stable within the limited areas left to some wildlife.

Which is a good reason not to oppose all hunting. We still need it to keep animal populations stable.

As for me, I'd rather not have my great great great great grandchildren reduced to eating vat grown bacteria simply because we've eaten everything else.
 
niky
Farmed dog would probably be okay, but street dogs and wild dogs are tough. Definitely not one of the best things I've tried.
:scared:

niky
Problem with farmed meat and bred animals is that pigs are actually very very very intelligent. They may be more intelligent than dogs. We eat pig. How different is it to eat dog?
I find it hard to believe, but I've heard that before. Well, sucks for them. Pork's one of my favorite pultries. :D Also, like they say, "Dog's man's best friend". I've never had my own dog, but it'll be hard to eat an animal that you are used to petting and playing with.
 
a6m5

I'm Filipino... I'm used to eating boiled duck embryos, so dog wasn't quite a stretch. 💡 Really gamey if it's a stray dog... ugh. Not something I'd recommend.

a6m5
I find it hard to believe, but I've heard that before. Well, sucks for them. Pork's one of my favorite pultries. :D Also, like they say, "Dog's man's best friend". I've never had my own dog, but it'll be hard to eat an animal that you are used to petting and playing with.

Then you probably shouldn't eat Chinese... there's a lot of rabbit and cat in there... :lol:

BTW, baby pigs are delicious. Damn, I'm evil. :lol:
 
niky
I'm Filipino... I'm used to eating boiled duck embryos, so dog wasn't quite a stretch. 💡 Really gamey if it's a stray dog... ugh. Not something I'd recommend.
I think I'm somewhat relieved to hear that dogs don't taste good. :lol:

niky
Then you probably shouldn't eat Chinese... there's a lot of rabbit and cat in there... :lol:
I know Japanese used to eat rabbits, long ago. I'd go for that. I like to eat at Chinese restaurants, so I've probably had cats before, I just don't know it. :D We go to this Chinese buffet called "Golden Panda". Secretly, we call it "Golden Kittens". :sly:
 
Quite alot of people eat rabbit in Australia, I don't though.
 
Casio
Ok, I'll start again from scratch.

The question to be asked is 'Why is it necessary to eat whales?' Just because you're bored with beef, chicken, lamb doesn't automatically give you the right to take something out of it's natual habitat and kill it.

Yes, I hear it now. 'But Casio! How is killing a whale for whale meat any different to killing a cow, chicken or sheep, for beef, chicken or lamb meat!?'. It is, it's a completely different situation. These animals are sustainable, they are bred for this purpose.

Lets go to the extreme. Say I came into your house, killed your children, and ate them. What would you say about that? Would you say 'Oh well, I guess either we're ALL worthy of it, or none are?, (Yes, I edited that slightly). I doubt it.

Also, I admit, I am bias. As I work with animals as an occupation.

Are you suggesting that animals have/should have the same rights as humans?

niky
@Famine: yes, we're all going to die someday. All fine and good, but then does global destruction in the near or far future negate the relevance of life and the way we live it in the here and now? If so, then I guess we should all just go outside our doors and kill the first twenty people we see. This'll help us get to the end much sooner.

Species do go extinct. I would have no problem seeing a whale species or a bird species go extinct for natural reasons, but the fact that we're causing extinction through our actions changes things a little bit.

There are species, that through their dominance, or their invasion of the habitats of other species where they have no competitors or natural predators, wipe out dozens of other species in the process. Right now, that species is us.

So then... it IS a natural reason? We are the dominant species. We can outcompete any animal on the planet simply because we ARE so dominant. We are everything's natural predator.

And we're not alone in the act of killing for sport either...
 
Casio
Who said they shouldn't? Us. That sounds fair.

I didn't say they shouldn't. I asked if you believed they should.

Do you?

ferrari_chris - Cats.
 
Famine
I didn't say they shouldn't. I asked if you believed they should.

Lets put it this way. If a shark eats some guy in the ocean, then the shark for some reason has to be killed, no questions asked. Same goes for dog attacks, get bitten non-fatally by a dog and tada, dog still usually gets put down .

Now if a person drowns some guy in the ocean, that person gets trials, jail, Parole, whatever. Another person comes up and non-fatally assaults someone, they might not even go to jail.

Do I think this is fair? No. In this case animals should be given the same treatment. If it's exactly the same crime as one commited by a human, why should it be a different punishment? It's just discrimination, for no other reason then the fact that it was born differently to us. It's no different then having different penalties for men/women, white/black.

Of course, they shouldn't get all the same rights as humans. Obviously, you arn't going to let a panda ride a motorcycle. But, not for the reason that it's a panda, but because it lacks the ability and mental capacity to do so. But the same as humans with dimished mental capacity are not allowed to get a motorcycle licence.

r0gu3
Survival of the fittest.
So you're against giving aid to people in third world countries then too? I mean yeah, we have the ability to save lives of living things, but ****'em, it's survival of the fittest.
 
Casio
Lets put it this way. If a shark eats some guy in the ocean, then the shark for some reason has to be killed, no questions asked. Same goes for dog attacks, get bitten non-fatally by a dog and tada, dog still usually gets put down .

Now if a person drowns some guy in the ocean, that person gets trials, jail, Parole, whatever. Another person comes up and non-fatally assaults someone, they might not even go to jail.

Do I think this is fair? No. In this case animals should be given the same treatment. If it's exactly the same crime as one commited by a human, why should it be a different punishment? It's just discrimination, for no other reason then the fact that it was born differently to us. It's no different then having different penalties for men/women, white/black.

Of course, they shouldn't get all the same rights as humans. Obviously, you arn't going to let a panda ride a motorcycle. But, not for the reason that it's a panda, but because it lacks the ability and mental capacity to do so. But the same as humans with dimished mental capacity are not allowed to get a motorcycle licence.

You missed out one vital component of your comparison - when animal kills animal.

If you're going to assign the same rights to animals as to humans, then any animal which kills another is a murderer.
 
Casio
Lets put it this way. If a shark eats some guy in the ocean, then the shark for some reason has to be killed, no questions asked. Same goes for dog attacks, get bitten non-fatally by a dog and tada, dog still usually gets put down .

Now if a person drowns some guy in the ocean, that person gets trials, jail, Parole, whatever. Another person comes up and non-fatally assaults someone, they might not even go to jail.

Do I think this is fair? No. In this case animals should be given the same treatment. If it's exactly the same crime as one commited by a human, why should it be a different punishment? It's just discrimination, for no other reason then the fact that it was born differently to us. It's no different then having different penalties for men/women, white/black.

Of course, they shouldn't get all the same rights as humans. Obviously, you arn't going to let a panda ride a motorcycle. But, not for the reason that it's a panda, but because it lacks the ability and mental capacity to do so. But the same as humans with dimished mental capacity are not allowed to get a motorcycle licence.


So you're against giving aid to people in third world countries then too? I mean yeah, we have the ability to save lives of living things, but ****'em, it's survival of the fittest.

If you want to apply it to intraspecies, then sure. I was only speaking in terms of interspecies. Humans wouldn't have come this far being co-existant with animals as they would have been killed.
 
Famine
And we're not alone in the act of killing for sport either...

True. Amazing how some of the most "intelligent" animals also kill for fun? I've seen dogs do it. Chimps do it. Cute, cuddly, friendly and oh-so-loveable dolphins do it to even cuter, cuddlier, friendlier, and even more loveable baby dolphins. Strangely, higher intelligence seems to equate with the ability for a higher "cruelty" quotient... :scared:

Now I'm not quite so sure I want to meet those advanced aliens who may be coming to visit us in the near future... :nervous:

Famine
So then... it IS a natural reason? We are the dominant species. We can outcompete any animal on the planet simply because we ARE so dominant. We are everything's natural predator.

It's more like we're an outside species injected onto the world stage, like rabbits in Australia, rats anywhere, or pigs in island ecologies... or even a virus (Agent Smith had that much right in "The Matrix"). We're a superspecies that absolutely nothing can compete with. And we have the ability to wipe out every single species on the face of this Earth. Or at least every single species not immune to radiation.

But does that mean we have to?

Problem is, a species that is too successful sometimes gets wiped out. Sometimes suddenly. They grow too fat, too lacking in toughness or resistance to a certain disease, or they outgrow available resources. If a species is efficient enough at gathering food to completely deplete their ecology, then they are their own greatest threat.

There are signs. There are resources we are dependent upon and which we are depleting faster than can be restored through natural or man-made processes. We coddle our sick, our insane, our genetically imperfect. The number of humans with genetically transmissible vulnerabilities (such as tendencies towards diabetes, heart disease and certain types of cancer) is growing.

Our natural resistance to disease isn't getting any better, and we're experiencing a lot of allergies now due to the lack of exposure to certain diseases and conditions. Population pressure, stress, and other factors are lowering our sperm count.

Some eco-nuts invoke "Gaia" as a controlling mechanism that will ultimately kill us off. If, as you say, our depredation of the diverse ecologies of the planet is a natural thing, it's also natural to assume that one factor or another will kill us off eventually if we don't reach a state of equilibrium in the near future.
 
eRRH...(in regards to my last post)... the relation of all of this warm crapola to whales? Save at least a stable breeding stock of them... who knows when an alien probe will come looking for whales, and nuke us when they find them all gone. :lol:
 
It is slightly absurd to talk of animal rights when there is no given reality of the human animals rights, it has confered certain rights on other members of it's species through organization. Admittance to this process from the animal kingdom would imply they had a standing in our communal set besides the standard issue;
Famine
We are everything's natural predator.
We do currently treat all other members of large classes/orders as food or resource, tradeable. We might alter our propensity by altering our value structures in the future but it would need very subtle reevaluations.
In the case of the Whale, it is too late, we probably are going to consign them (our largest mammal relative) to the ghost DNA pile;
Famine
the Earth has been around for 4,500,000,000 years now. In that time 99.9% of all species ever to have existed have become extinct.
It isn't a matter of us suddenly putting our foot on the animals head. Their fate was sealed when the first motorized propeller screw put it's industrial rhythm in the oceans; we nuked their internet; whalesong, which is complex, appended and had covered the extent of Earth's Oceanspace for millions of years as a true long-distance communication. They've been pretty much phuked and in a goth downer ever since. The more Giant White Steaks (ime thinkin' shallott&whtwine garnish) we get on our plates the faster we put this animal out of it's post-net misery, folks :(
 
I asked the local paleontologist what he thought of saving the whales...






He said, "**** 'em."
 
Omnis
I asked the local paleontologist what he thought of saving the whales...






He said, "**** 'em."

I personally think "Eat them" would have been better. Let's all join PETA! (People for Eating of Tasty Animals)
 

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