Suspension Theroies R-Us

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by IamWSPro, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. IamWSPro

    IamWSPro

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    I have been trying my hand at tunes. I have found a couple on this forum that are a good start. I had been getting very frustrated with GT6 whenever I start to tweak some things.

    I just learned tonight (Im a Newbie remember) that when you soften spring its a LOWER number. 7 is a softer Spring than a 11.25... I had been thinking exactly opposite. NO Wonder why I have had some long nights trying to fix a cars handling. So I may just start to like GT6 once i get that info imbedded in my brain,,,,, however then you look at shocks. I hope I dont have that backwards...... A higher number on a shock means its a stiffer shock (wont compress easy)??

    I really wish there was a graphic that showed how the 2 work for or against each other. Im a visual person and seeing higher or lower numbers on a screen does not make it click for me. Need Pictures, Video, Hands on type of stuff for my Pea brain.

    So please holp me not hate GT6.... Give me any more Tuning 101, captain obvious stuff I can make sure I dont have backwards.

    Thanks
     
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  2. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    High compress, hard to compress.
    High extend, extends hard.

    For speeds (which is what you see/feel), high compress (hard to compress) mean compression is slower, high extends (extends hard) mean extention is faster.

    A-Roll bars works like comp. Train deformation is harder with high AR, meaning that the train will deform slower.

    Notice especially for AR that a certain degree of freedom is needed for each setting to works, or you get the opposite result of what you need.

    Ex: low AR front / very high AR rear mean you'll move freely in front and have a brick at the rear. Usually lower front than rear mean stabilisation of an oversteering setup, so the rear doesn't do what he wants, this particular very low AR front/very high AR rear lead to drifting instead of stabilizing. For the same goal people can also use higher front than rear, that depends if you have an oversteering-under control car (lower front, high rear) or an unpredictable oversteering car (high front, lower rear).

    Very high rear AR settings means you resist very hard to loosing rear traction and then you loose it instantanetly, leading to violent chassis moves.
    Very low AR setting mean the train will be in bublegum and sometime loose traction because the lateral forces on the train are too high to take.
    This bublegum/brick effect work the same with comp and ext dampers but it's harder to locate.

    This works the same with comp / ext. Under normal circomstances, very low settings (1 or 2) or very high settings (8, 9, 10) are not very effective and quite counterproductive sometime, unless you drive under specific conditions (drifting, dragging, etc).

    Try to stay around 4-6 until you refine your supsension settings, that'll help you to locate what the car needs. Middle value for AR is 4 and 4 or 5 for dampers.
    Also try to separate the over/understeering problems from power (dampers/camber/toe/LSD), the over/understeering problems from weigth transit (damper, AR and Spring/RH only if you don't follow the "spring equation" or is in a different front/rear RH situation), the over/understeering problems from balance (RH/Springs/AR/camber/LSD initial only).

    You will see problems of power in the braking or accel part in curves.
    You will see problems of balance in apex
    You will see weigth transit problems between braking and apex, and apex and accel. And sometimes in the other departements aswell (pure braking, pure accel, pure apex).

    Experiment ! I learned a lot via moving one damper click, then do a 5 lap race event, then moving one damper click, then another 5 lap (same track mandatory so you feel the difference), making a lot of money at the same moment.

    Won 2mil on Brand Hatch (IA event 600pp) yesterday when tuning a LFA Nür that way, meaning I used the event wining at least 13 times. Used to do this on Rome in GT5.
    Rome is a very good track to tune cars because the car is under hard and violent forces. Brand Hatch is quite cool to, but I prefer Rome. High speed ring is cool too to cure apex problems and finetune LSD.

    Take any technical track you master and are very time-consistent, that will be good. If you master Suzuka, use it. Don't use Nür until your setup is 90% done, but try it just to be sure your setup is not a pig on that track. If it is, note what you changed, change it, and come back on your favorite tracks to be sure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  3. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    You sound like you know your stuff so I won't presume to question you.
    But just to confirm - you're saying that
    "If your car has turn-in oversteer, you make the front harder to compress and the rear extend softer"?
    i.e. increase my front compression dampers and decrease my rear extension dampers?
     
  4. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    This is brake turn-in. This will resist weigth rear to front weigth transit. Depending of the engine position, this will help most of the time, but remember you also can have snap transit on RR, some MR and some 4WD with fancy LSD initial and decel balance.

    Pay attention that the front ext plays an important part just after this. While in apex, all dampers have a role (ext inside, comp outside).

    There's other "rules" about that, I tried to explain them in a topic in this subforum named "mostly all my dirty secrets" that I can't link because I'm on the phone rigth now.

    Be aware that 40% of things I tell about aerodynamics are bs since I'm still refining the thing. :) (I don't think I will be définitive on the subject, we need an aero room for that... Like the one they put in some trailer I can't remember).
     
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  5. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    Thank you. I just tried your method.
    It did not work for me.

    Zonda R
    Comp 3/5, Ext 1/3 = POWER OVERSTEEEEEEER
    Comp 3/4, Ext 2/3 = POWER OVERSTEER
    I increase the rear compression (make it harder to compress), and decrease the front extend (make it extend softer)... but it doesn't work

    Comp 3/4, Ext 4/3 = Power oversteer
    Comp 3/5, Ext 5/3 = Stable
    I increase the rear compression (make it harder to compress) and increase the front extend (make it harder to extend) and that reduces my power oversteer.

    I wonder why my findings are different than yours?
     
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  6. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    LSd or springs maybe ? I posted a zonda r last week, try the "evoluzionne" version i posted, that's the solution I choosed about that car...

    I'm at c 5/9 - e 3/6 - ar 4/6, with her, at 73/74 mm for 18.72 / 24.11 spring and some rear toe (+.12) + 1 optional tcs on rs/rs.

    The link is in the gt6 topic in my sig.

    edit - yeah 9... It's very unusual for me to post comp like that.

    Depends a lot of your aero too (380/650)... And lsd :) 9/7/11 by memory.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  7. Gentoo64

    Gentoo64

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    Actually, dampers work like this:

    If you want oversteer on compression, use something like 3/4 or 3/6 etc depending on how much oversteer you want.

    If you want oversteer on extension, use something like 5/3 etc

    It's easier if you visualize it, as it's easy to think 3/4 on extension means oversteer when it's actually understeer. If you set 3/5 on extension, the rear of the car is gona stick to the road for longer than the front, meaning understeer / stability. If you set extension to 5/3, the rear is going to bounce up quicker causing oversteer.

    With all damper settings, the lower the number, the quicker it compresses / extends.

    If you have compression 1/1 and extension 8/8 the car will want to stay leaning / pushing down for a long time as the dampers will hold it down as it's slow to extend, if you set compression to 5/5 and extension to 1/1 the car will slowly dip down, and bounce back quickly.

    Just think high = slow movement low = quick movement.

    You'll find a lot of cars with too much exit oversteer will be dramatically improved by using extension settings such as 5/7 to counter it and let you be much more aggressive on throttle exit. Hope that helps.
     
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  8. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    Sorry - dumb question:
    When you say
    Comp 3/6
    Ext 5/3

    for increased oversteer,
    Do you mean increasing braking oversteer? Because that's exactly what my findings showed.

    Or if you meant increased power oversteer, then I'm unsure why my findings were opposite.
    I assume you mean increased power oversteer, otherwise your final statement about ext 5/7 = reduced power oversteer would contradict you.
    But I wonder why my findings are opposite to yours and blueshift's?
     
  9. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    Thanks for those numbers - I can see that you compensate for Zonda R's power-oversteer characteristics with VERY stiff rear springs, rather than due to your damper settings.
    I think you would find that if you made the springs closer (18.72 / 20.72) then you would need to have c5/9 e8/6 maybe.

    Also if the car is only getting 7'00"xxx on Nordschleife with both ABS and TCS, then I wonder how it will do with ABS 0 TCS 0?
    I suspect that again, the power-ovsteer compensation comes from the TCS more than the dampers.
    My current damper settings C 0/8 E 10/9 with maximum downforce, I get 6'40" on Nordschleife with ABS 0 TCS 0...
     
  10. Gentoo64

    Gentoo64

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    The compression is usually on braking / turning in, and extension is usually around the apex area. It all depends on your driving style, and how much difference there is in damper settings - if you set lower values for extension, then the car will do it earlier ie if you have your dampers set to comp 1/2 and ext 2/1 then you will oversteer more quickly as the dampers act almost like springs.

    If you want to reduce power oversteer, use a higher number on the rear than the front for the extension.

    Say you are happy with the way the car turns in, leave the dampers at whatever they are, say, compression 3/3, but are unhappy with the amount of oversteer on corner exit, then use say 5/7 on extension. Then play with different numbers like comp 3/3 ext 3/5 for quicker transition / delay, or use higher on rear for more understeer etc can take some tuning.

    Also sometimes the dampers can make the car feel sloppy and not very nimble especially on FF and 4WD cars so you might want to play with AR bars to get better turn in and stability. Every suspension setting blends in together so if you change one you more than likely need to compensate by tweaking another as you will always have under / over steer in different circumstances so it can take quite a while to get a perfect tune for your driving style. Combine that with LSD and you could spend weeks / months tuning a single car :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
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  11. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Of course TCS cure last bits of oversteering on this car. The zonda comes equiped with TCS and pro driver never cut it in these situations, so it's my excuse.

    Rear springs are not very stiff compared to the front :
    Weigth distrib is 47:53 but aero distrib is 31:69, that's why I used a 44:56 spring distribition (RH is 1mm different but let's forget that).

    Very hard springs helps for stability at high speed so you can turn around say High Speed Ring quicker :)
    At low speed the aero stop to work. What I get is 47:53 weigth working with 44:56 springs => rear spring is higher than weigth distrib meaning the car will not be tail chasing if dampers are set ok (got that from 1000km around rome to find them).
     
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  12. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    Think I still need to wrap my head around this.
    A higher extension value means that that side of the car is SLOWER to RAISE, yes?
    That means stability to reduce BRAKING oversteer...

    You hit the brakes.
    The weight shifts to the front.
    The STRONGER rear EXTENSION dampers make the weight slower to go to the front. (slow forward tilt)

    So, for POWER oversteer.
    You hit the gas.
    The weight shifts to the back.
    The WEAKER front EXTENSION dampers make the weight FASTER to go to the back. (fast rearward tilt)

    More weight in the back while the car is rotating, gives the rear more inertia and so you are MORE likely to power oversteer if your rear extension dampers are STRONGER than front extension dampers.

    Or do I have my math wrong?
    Thanks for your patience btw, it's hard for me to wrap my head around this @_@
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  13. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    Hmm, I never thought about the numbers in that way. Thanks!
    I think maybe we are just approaching the problem in different ways.
    You fight the tail-chasing mostly with spring balance, and I with damper balance.
    I will definitely test out your tune tomorrow and see how it flies :)
     
  14. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Will reply tomorow, need to sleep :)
     
  15. CSLACR

    CSLACR

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    Hmmm, well, .... A 700lb spring is stiffer than a 400lb spring, yes?
    So a 14.5/whatever spring is stiffer than a 9.5/whatever spring, yes?
     
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  16. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Incoming wall of text in 3... 2... 1... :)

    High extention settings always mean the car is faster to raise.

    1-At braking, front comp work with rear ext.
    2-Then turn-in, it's front comp/front ext with rear ext + front ar bar + a little of rear ar bar.
    3-Then apex it's front/rear comp in the outside of the apex, and front/rear ext in the inside of the apex. Front train comp/ext have a major importance, and rear comp/ext too so eveything need to be balanced. You have AR bars there too.
    4-Then escape is front ext / comp and rear ext + rear ar bar + a little of front ar bar
    5-Then accel is front ext / rear comp.

    That was the elements listing that work during a curve, meaning you have to find a balance somehow for each transition between them.

    The following is highly theorical because each car have different problem and thus have to be validated by multiple tests.

    You want to have the less differences with the elements, but some to increase effects:
    Damper force is SR * damp score. I will alway talk about this in this § when i mention comp / ext compairisons.

    * From phase 1, you want front damper force > rear ext force to counter the weigth transit from rear to front because too much weigth transit in front mean the tire loose traction in front (ie too much weigth to support) and straigth bang to the wall.
    If you take front comp forces >> rear ext forces, you will have usually strange results depending of the car. Either your front is floating around like on the LFA Nür, either that's massive understeer like on any FF. This setting is not easy to find esp in GT6, was easier for me in GT5.
    * From phase 2, weigth distribution comes in at 50%. Same story as point 1 but with front comp/front ext. Rear ext have less importance here if the weigth distrib is like >50:<50.
    * From phase 3 you want ideally ext < comp with the weigth distribution taking full effect here. If you took balanced springs that mean front = rear but this means there's problem with phase 1,2 and 4,5. You can try to counter this via AR bars.
    * From phase 4, weigth distrib is fully in effect again, and increasing due to lateral forces and speed increasing. Treat this as phase 2 with the associated dampers.
    * From phase 5, it's phase 1 inverted.

    Dampers is always at the expense of something else.

    GT default setup is x/x - x/x where x is whatever comes by default.
    It's always a good thing to try comp @ x / x-y and ext @ x+y / x with AR @ x/x+y with balanced springs under "my" school of tuning on front engine cars, usually with low RH/ high SR, x = 4 and y = 2 but you can vary with x=3 and y = 1 aswell. I definitivly try c4/3 - e6/4 - ar 3/4 on each tune aswell sometime to good results. I think this should be the default setup.

    But a lot of people think different.

    No that's where you're wrong. Strong rear ext mean the weigth will be catapulted to the front.

    Wrong also. Weak front ext mean the weigth will go gently to the back, to be absorbed by high rear comp.
    The weigth will shift from front to rear there, that's front ext / rear comp mainly working there ie a 3*19 working with a 9*24 in my Zonda.

    You're generally rigth about the physical effect but rear ext have little to say in phase 4 or 5 as I said earlier.
    As I said, too, there's exceptions.

    Exemple in phase 1 : weigth in front is good for traction until the tires you got reach their limit. Then you loose traction and then go check who were watching you there in the public. :)
    Exemple in phase 4 : neutral weigth from phase 3 will go to rear. If it goes to fast and make your tirs under too much load, you loose rear traction and tail chase. The "way of how you tail chase" can be fully controlled via LSD : initial and accel settings.
    Accel and decel settings are either sensitivity, from GT4 official guide, accel/decel are "% of slip difference allowed".
    Accel 15 mean a inside traction wheel can turn 50-15/2 and outside 50+15/2 : the inside wheel can turn 42.5% when the outside can turn 57.5% (or 57.5/42.5 = 35% more than the inside).
    On FR/MR : If the outside rear traction wheel (for the Zonda) gets more than +35%, for exemple when it loose traction and slip freely, you will have say outside tire turning 200% (or 2000% i don't really know) more than the inside because it's free and the initial comes in effect with it's special effects.
    ie high initial will correct with amount quantum of strength but not esentially come back faster to a non slipping/allowed diffenrence situation via accel/decel because those high quantum of strengh can make a car change direction : say your car is outside 200% / inside 100% meaning outside wheel turn 2 turns for inside 1 turn. Initial will comes in effect and slow the 200% + quicken the 100%. So you get say at a moment 160% / 140% and at these speeds the tire loose traction at 135% : bam the LSD tries to correct both tire at the same moment : next is 140% / 160% meaning a change of direction, then 160 / 140 change again, then 140 / 160 forever (you should have slow down anyway to go back under 135 / 135 !). Initial seems to be little too much :)
    That's why I think the exact opposite of some people say high initial = high correction = faster to unlock. Because the correction can make the second tire loose traction and there it's locking / spining / change direction forever.
    High accel/decel is faster to lock I agree. An adapted initial is faster to unlock (not low or high). There one "rigth" initial value whatever your car is setup. Susp /camber have an effect on it, but it minimal (ie +/- 1 click). That's very important to know. Accel / decel is quite the same story but it's more dependent of the susp since they will act in case of emergency when you loose traction or not working anytime when turning around allowing difference in wheels (the LSD will always try to come back under accel/decel sensitivity).

    When loosing control if your car always change direction, that mean your initial is way too strong (+ your camber allow too much difference in lateral force on your wheels). If your car have understeer problem in apex, that mean your initial is too week. If your loose traction forever your initial is too strong again, etc.

    That's why accel on rear propulsion cars are generally < to front traction car, because of where the weigth is in phase 4 (that is what makes a outside tire to slip) and the opposite on decel (front traction car decel < rear propulsion car decel).
    4WD... well... I have to translate my feelings in words before talking about that. I will write an article on this.

    Remember, you want to go close to the tire limit, either by adapting your tune or your driving but never reach it !
    Tires is the most important part for the control of the car, it's 50%, sups is 35%, lsd is 15% (in GT5 lsd was way more important, like 25%).
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
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  17. esoxhntr

    esoxhntr

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    blueshift has extension backwards -- higher number, more resistance to extension.
     
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  18. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    I appreciate your effort in all of that, but you never answered my original question as to why our findings - my finding that stronger extension dampers = damps the extension stroke of the spring, which is in line with the dictionary, esox, two tuning guides, and the description in GT6's tuning menu - and your+gentoo's finding that stronger extension dampers = strengthens the extension stroke of the spring - are so different.

    To put it another way;
    We both agree that as compression damper increases, the weight will fall onto that side slower, yes?
    For example, strengthen front comp damper = under braking, the weight does not fly forward as fast. (weight stays in back)

    So you are saying that as extension damper increases, the weight will fall away from that side faster.
    For example, strengthen front ext damper = under acceleration, the weight flies backward faster. (weight stays in back)

    So you're basically saying that increasing compression dampers on one side of the car, and increasing extension dampers on the same side of the car, does the exact same thing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  19. oppositelock

    oppositelock

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    I agree. There's no reason to believe extension works contrary to reality.
     
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  20. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Well, people Will always think they're smarter than the crowd.
    Why should it change its been like this since 5 games, and dozens and dozens of tuners said like This before.
    "resist extention" mean compression strengh... I dont really think ive got backward at all.
    I had thèse debate forever in GT4 and 5, the only problem is my tunes are working the way I want them to work...
    If i want my car to dive faster at brakind i decrease front comp and increase rear ext and the opposite dampers for corner exit, +front ext,-rear comp for the rear to dive...

    There is not a single hint in the game of what you say, in car's behaviour...
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  21. Highlandor

    Highlandor

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    I think the situation (with setups, and dampers specifically) isn't helped by the problems in the game and the big differences in driving styles / techniques.

    I found that most of the time lower compression is better, but with some problem cars, for reasons I don't really understand, the other way round suits that car in certain situations (not always).

    Guys I know who have a very smooth style and ABS on can use, and like, setups that have lower extension, but someone who has a more aggressive style, or ABS off (or both), prefers to have to compression lower.

    But again, the huge amount of car, tyre, setup and driving style differences means it's hard to be specific and say this is the case 100% of the time, but there does seem to be a roughly general correlation there..

    I think the fact that some cars will work with soft front / hard rear, hard front / soft rear, or "even" speaks volumes about GT6 - what is right can sometimes be what works best for that car, driver and situation (i.e. power / weight, tyres, driving style, track etc)..

    Maybe this damper feature PD are claiming to implement will change / clarify things, who knows..? With PD's history of introducing new features that had bugs in them though-out GT5, even if this introduced, there's just as much chance it could make matters worse or more confusing, albiet temporarily, or worst case scenario - permanently..
     
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  22. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Sometimes also 'cross damper' can work too, like front comp > front ext and rear comp < rear ext, for exemple for RR situations or in drifting, you take polar points on the car's wheels like this.
    It depends on how you want to absorb the road, or how you want to absorb the car, both tuning schools exist, I'm of the car absorb school, this is where the kinetic energy is, this is a more direct method than figuring potential energy to me and my posted setup are less track dependent.

    Each single setup with ext > comp I tested were track dependent and not very agile and smooth to the least I say. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's hard to drive. Soon you will be having 15-20 regular cars and will not be able to switch between them and take too much of your racing time in dirt or grass saying "oh yeah, I forgot it was sensitive to that aswell".
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  23. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Yes

    Yes I'm saying that. But weigth fall in back under accel, it don't stay where it is, there is weigth transit there.

    I never said that, where do you find this ? I can quote me last few days saying high comp score mean slow compression and high ext scores mean fast extention.
    High score = more of damper. More comp mean slow comp. More ext mean fast ext.

    Say a car weigth 1000kg @ 50:50

    Stoped : each wheel got 250kg
    Phase 5 (straigth accel): rear gets 300 each, front 200 each.
    Phase 1 (straigth braking): front wheels gets 350kg each, rear gets 150kg each => front comp/rear ext
    Phase 2 (corner entry): inside front gets 400kg, ext front gets 300, rear gets 150 each (or so). => front comp/ext // rear ext
    The weigth is travelling there.
    Phase 3: (apex), inside front/rear gets 200kg each, outside gets 300 each
    Phase 4: (corner exit) rear outside gets 350, rear inside 300, front inside gets 150, front outside 200
    Phase 5: (straigth accel) rear gets 300 each, front 200 each.

    - if the weigth is pushing more from a phase to another, you'll have the comp working.
    - if the weigth unloads from a wheel, you'll have ext workings simple as that.

    Look what happens in phase 2, 3 and 4. The weigth travel from inside to outside. You need to consider ext/comp equilibrium of each wheel train if you want a car to perform well inside a curve.

    You and your buddy were saying more ext mean slower extention and slower compression, i disagree with this :)
    (no harm is intended, just read my post with a loud french accent, i lacks lots of vocabulary in car)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  24. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

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    Although you keep talking about phases and loads, you haven't actually talked about the effect of increasing one type of damper at a time.

    Let's look at it in a straight line.
    Remember that dampers only slow the weight shift, so after long enough accelerating or braking, the full weight shift will eventually happen and stay.

    With balanced dampers
    Stopped: 250kg/corner
    Starting to accelerate: 225kg/front, 275kg/back
    Accelerating: 200kg/front, 300kg/back
    Starting to brake: 250kg/front, 250kg/back
    Braking: 300kg/front, 200kg/back

    With stronger front compression dampers (we agree that it makes front comp stroke slower)
    Stopped: 250kg/corner
    Starting to accelerate: 220kg/front, 280kg/back (since front comp is slow = rear comp is fast)
    Accelerating: 200kg/front, 300kg/back
    Starting to brake: 225kg/front, 275kg/back (slow front comp working)
    Braking: 300kg/front, 200kg/back

    We agree on these two, yes?

    You are saying that with stronger front extension dampers (normal comp dampers)
    Stopped: 250kg/corner
    Starting to accelerate: 220kg/front, 280kg/back (you say that since front ext is high, weight comes off front faster)
    Accelerating: 200kg/front, 300kg/back
    Starting to brake: 225kg/front, 275kg/back (since front ext is "fast" according to you = rear ext is "slow" according to you)
    Braking: 300kg/front, 200kg/back

    i.e. you are saying that increasing front extension dampers does the same thing as increasing front compression dampers...
    More accurately, you are saying that
    stronger front comp dampers makes weight go onto the front slower (net, more weight in the back)
    stronger front ext dampers make weight go off the front faster (net, more weight in the back)
    However, because of damper balance, those two "different" effects have the same net effect.

    I think that to improve your art of tuning, while there's nothing I can say to convince you about my views on which direction extension damper dampens the extension stroke - maybe you should think about the car in terms of its balance rather than the individual numerical load on each wheel.
    For some reason you think the front ext damper is unrelated to the rear ext damper, which in GT6 (and maybe reality?) is completely wrong. Why do you think dampers are just 1-10 with no units, rather than 10-50 kg/mm or something?
    It's because it's about the balance of the dampers.

    How can rear ext have nothing to say when accelerating? If front front ext has something to say, then the rear ext is related.
    Did you know that when a "shock" (weight shift) occurs on a suspension, every damper is used? Because the car takes the shock, wobbles, then eventually straightens out. This is called spring oscillation.
    Anyway, the fact that spring oscillation happens, means that when accelerating, the front ext damper is used and so is the rear ext damper.
    The effect on whether you get p.oversteer or not, is dependent on whether the front ext is weaker or stronger than the rear ext - nothing to do with the individual value of that damper, since they're not in solid units anyway.

    Unsure where we ever said that a stronger extension damper means that side of the car would have a slower compression stroke? In fact that is what you have said - You say that stronger extension damper gives you a faster extension stroke therefore slower compression stroke.
    But yes, myself, the dictionary, GT6, reality, two other people, and two tuning guides all agree that stronger extension damper dampens the extension stroke, just like a stronger compression damper dampens the compression stroke...
    I can understand that you find it a little harder to communicate in English, no problem :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  25. oppositelock

    oppositelock

    Messages:
    864
    Location:
    United States
    Tell me about it.
    I bought GT1 on day one, and have played every game since. Extension was never inverted. Who are these "dozens and dozens" of tuners? You should ask them to join this thread, because you appear to be in the minority here.
    This statement doesn't even make sense, and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what dampers are and do.
    When you do an experiment, you're supposed to change only one variable at a time. Altering the compression also and then drawing conclusions about extension violates basic Science 101.
    And you won't see it until you know what you're looking for. As someone once said, you have to know the rules in order to break the rules. In this case, the "rules" are physical reality. I'm totally open to things not working as they should (i.e. camber, possibly ride height), but you can't declare dampers broken until you at least understand what they're supposed to do.
     
    dtimefeel likes this.
  26. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    See what I'm saying, I used to be called a lucky dumb guy. Try my tunes, they works, especially damper side. That must be because I'm lucky ????
    Saying I'm not click testing is quite not honest, I never post a tune if it don't have 600-800km only testing the car at least !!
     
  27. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    Australia
    How can you say "especially damper side" when your car has so many variables installed such as spring rate, height difference, custom LSD, sway bars and TCS?
    My very first reply to you was to say that if your springs were more evenly distributed, you would instantly see power-oversteer. And if you experimented with changing just your rear extension dampers after having evenly-distributed springs, then you would see that we are correct.
     
  28. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    I disagree in this part.
    I'm saying
    Starting to accelerate: 225kg/front, 275kg/back
    The same as balanced.

    The rest I agree.

    There's no comp/comp balance in this part. Front comp is not compressing, it's front ext that's working. It can't extend and compress at the same time.

    comp/comp balance is working in corner entry/apex that are left out of your exemple.
    ext/ext balance is working in apex/corner exit.

    (+ar bars)

    You are talking about Phase 1 / Phase 5, you miss what I'm trying to explain...

    No, I were speaking about corner entry and exit... + where is your apex ?

    For exemple #2 here I say
    Starting to accelerate: 230kg/front, 270kg/back
    and
    Starting to brake: 250kg/front, 250kg/back (same story about comp there, front ext have no role in straigth braking, they have a role the weigth is starting to go from front to front-inside and only at this moment)


    No, because one wheel spring can't extend and compress at the same time, there's no "net effect". There's weigth transit under a wheel train during corner entry + apex + corner exit, that's the moments to consider ext / comp balance under one train and eventually comp/comp or ext/ext balance. And count this either by gap or division (never sure about that, some works under some cars, and some under other cars).

    Ok but what is the problem ?

    A balance by gap exemple was given by my x and y before. c x / x + y, e x - y / x, typically I use x=4 and y=1 or 2, remember ? Y is the gap, you can call that "corner factor".

    Because the rear is comp'ing, rear ext have no word on that ? Unless your gear shifting is one of a tractor, I don't not see any problem there ?

    Bumps on the road don't make the weigth to transit (unless you're at 400km/h on le Mans). I'm not speaking about that, I was speaking about weigth transit... Or corner entry, apex etc. That's a whole different thing.
    Usually low SR related to speeds considered can help there.

    I'm sorry but didn't understand what you meant there.

    People say there and in the second topic "strong ext mean slow ext on the car", I say fine, prove it. I say strong ext = strong ext moves, even if the dampers are acting slower if they are.
    On the other topic I say dampers ext @ 10 are not working 10 ten slower than at 1 but they sure are 10 times stronger than the 1. So the result is 10 is faster to recover than 1.
     
  29. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    Come on. Try to figure what you can imagine while driving to click-test dampers for 2000km for exemple.

    Which I did, on my Zonda (1000 in GT6, 1000 in GT5). Or the scuderia, which is allready same story but don't work pre 1.03 (didn't checked since).

    I'm not a guy that post a tune per day. I even can't do this in vacations.

    What you call power-oversteer is what I call LSD greed + bad camber + bad driving + more eventually bad dampers at corner exit (rear comp helps a lot there). The sideeffects of dampers to other elements... It's quite your problem if you can't read dampers alone tbh.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2014
  30. dtimefeel

    dtimefeel

    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm talking about a straight-line right now, to simplify our examples.
    You already agreed that weight transfer to the rear during cornering causes power-oversteer, so let's only talk about the weight transfer, not the cornering.

    Do you really think it's only bumps on the road that shock the suspension?
    Literally anything - turning, braking, accelerating, elevation changes - will cause the sprung weight to oscillate on the springs, meaning all four dampers are in use.
    For example, suppose we are going in a straight line, and we violently jab the brakes for a split-second.
    What you are saying is that the moment of jabbing the brakes, only the front comp and rear ext are in use, and that the moment of letting go of the brakes, only the rear comp and front ext are in use?

    You are right to say that a spring won't simultaneously extend and compress, but they will quickly extend, then compress, then extend, then compress, until the car is at equilibrium related to the forces acting on it. This is called spring oscillation, have a read about it!

    http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/shm4.php
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=dYfbZrla6QQC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=spring oscillation car braking&source=bl&ots=1BOXip-wGX&sig=Voj9vt1oMS13tOKSqc3tiMfW1H0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6mvcUpmLAa2XiAfflIHYCA&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=spring oscillation car braking&f=false