SUV's are obsolete

[Keef]

I'm guessing you Brits still call it the Disco, but we call it the LR3 now. Anyway, since the Pound is worth nearly 1.8 dollars, your 25,000 Pounds translates to ~$45,000, which just happens to be only $5 above the starting MSRP for a 2005 LR3. Okay, it's a year old, but the price probably hasn't changed.
If a used Tahoe costs $35,000 over there that just shows that the Parliament fancies ridiculous tariffs--something I already knew. For the most part our European imported cars cost about the same over hear as they do on their home continent.

 

[Poverty]

Im not saying tahoes are useless just most SUV's. I dont know about the tahoe but may SUV's have less storage space than that of a Estate car, minivan or people carrier.

But like Blazin said, despite being able to do that in other cars, you come to the cost issue, who's betting a Mercede E-Class costs a lot more. Over here sure, you have a valid case, but like we'd have to pay over the odd's to get a Tahoe imported here, the US pay's over the odd's for our cars we ship over there. You can buy a brand new Land Rover Discovery for less than £25k here, a Tahoe with 50k miles costs just under £20k and it's rhd.

Yeah but it doesnt have to be mercedes or audi. I only mention them cause I know of them. Im sure there are american cars that are similiar to E-class size than can tow just as much if not more. Hell get a 300C then. That should be able to tow more than a E-class because those engines are torque monsters and theyre cheap.

So theres a solution to the problem.


The only 3 reason I can see for SUV ownership for the average person is:

Higher driving position.
Safer in most SUV's in a crash.
Looks cool.

 

[Danoff]

Higher driving position.
Safer in most SUV's in a crash.
Looks cool.

You forgot the more important ones:
- Ground Clearance
- Towing Capacity
- People Carrying Capacity
- Cargo Space and Protection
(yes, many of these apply to the "average" parent driver)

Yes, you can find those things in other vehicles, but not ALL of them and especially not in combination with looks.

 

[Poverty]

You forgot the more important ones:
- Ground Clearance
- Towing Capacity
- People Carrying Capacity
- Cargo Space and Protection
(yes, many of these apply to the "average" parent driver)

Yes, you can find those things in other vehicles, but not ALL of them and especially not in combination with looks.

lol I like how you mentioned parent. That says something.

The average person doesnt need the towing capacity and ground clearance. And the rest of the things you mention cars do just fine.

 

[Dave A]

So they can make do with a 300C, what if they don't like the 300C. What if they simply pick the Tahoe because they like it more for their own reasons. Nothing wrong with that. People in the US do like bigger cars more than the average European, that's undeniable, but so what. It's their own preference. I like the classic Mini's more than the new one's, the new one's are undeniably better cars, but so what.

 

[Poverty]

thats fine with me if they prefer the look of a SUV. Its just that most people think the SUV can do all these magical things that cars cant.

The 300c is a big car and that was just one example. Im sure there are many bigger cars than can tow more than a 300c.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah families can get by fine in family saloons, but preference is key. I'd probably never have an SUV, with or without a family rich or poor. I'd much rather an estate, but some people like say Blazin, would rather and SUV to an estate.

 

[Danoff]

lol I like how you mentioned parent. That says something.

Parents generally have more need of people hauling and take camping/outdoor trips with their kids.

The average person doesnt need the towing capacity and ground clearance. And the rest of the things you mention cars do just fine.

No, the average person does not need the towing capacity. But the rest of the things I mentioned (people hauling and cargo room/protection) cars do not do just fine. It's hard to find a car with three rows of seats. It's even harder to find a car you can carry a lot of stuff in. When I owned an SUV I packed it desks, mattresses, a couch, filled it with camping supplies, shuttled 9 people around (short distances). It was college, I was always moving to a new apartment, helping others move, or going camping with buddies.

Post me a car with three rows of seats. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just interested in what's out there.

 

[Dave A]

To be fair though, the average familiy doesn't need 3 rows of seats. Me and my brother used to fit in the back of a Mini just fine. Me and Charlotte take her nephew and neice out from time to time in my 306, they never complain about a lack of comfort, and yes I've taken them on long trips. The only thing they're really, really a benefit for is load lugging, but if I wanted that I'd get a minivan. They are useful and ther are some people that get the full benefit from them, but the average family doesn't need one.

 

[Poverty]

I should have said non SUV vehicle instead of car. I can only think of a couple 3 row seating cars in the shape of volvos mercedes and audi's.

 

[Swift]

I have a friend that had a Jeep Cherokee and two children. One in a child seat and one in a booster seat. It was rather cramped. He picked up an Expedition and now those cramped situations are gone. SUV's have their place, but to be honest, it's such an incredible waste to get it with no need of hauling, towing or transportiong more then 3 people. That's my opinion on it.

 

[Poverty]

The funny thing is 10 years ago a audi A6 would be around the size of the current A4, The new jetta is about the size of a old passat and a new VW golf, 10 years ago would be smaller than a polo but bigger than a lupo.

Are we really cramped?

How did our parents manage or are we just spoilt?

 

[Danoff]

I think for the average family of 5 if you're planning on taking sizeable road trips with your kids, 3 rows of seating is nice. If you're planning on camping, ground clearance is nice. And if you're planning on buying furniture, being able to get it home is nice. If you go to the lake, towing is nice.

That's why I think a lot of families combine all of those into one good locking vehicle and get an SUV.

I agree that the safety argument is crap, and the people hauling argument is crap if there isn't a third row.

 

[Danoff]

How did our parents manage or are we just spoilt?

Minivans mostly. Most of my buddies in grade school had parents with minivans and three rows of seating. My folks had a full sized van.

 

[Dave A]

The funny thing is 10 years ago a audi A6 would be around the size of the current A4, The new jetta is about the size of a old passat and a new VW golf, 10 years ago would be smaller than a polo but bigger than a lupo.

Are we really cramped?

How did our parents manage or are we just spoilt?

I agree with that, I don't think family saloons are cramped at all, exept maybe BMW 3 series, I'm not over keen on the space inside them. But even my Bora can carry 2 adults and 3 children in comfort, and that's not a big saloon.

 

[Poverty]

I remember before I me and my sister was born they had a Opel Manta. When we came about they sold it and got a VW passat Estate. After the passat we got a audi 80, kiddie seats and everything and often had 3 people in the back. We also used to drive from england to spain and stuff like that to go on holiday. We managed fine.

When I was 16/17 and some of my older friends started driving we used to get 7 people in fiestas and corsas.... And we were all 5"9 and above.

 

[Dave A]

I think for the average family of 5 if you're planning on taking sizeable road trips with your kids, 3 rows of seating is nice. If you're planning on camping, ground clearance is nice. And if you're planning on buying furniture, being able to get it home is nice. If you go to the lake, towing is nice.

The 3 rows of seats for 5 people I dissagree with, you don't need it, as I said in my last post, I can carry 3 kid's in the back of my Bora just fine, they arn't cramped and that's a smaller sized saloon. Ground clearance for camping isn't really an issue either, you usally camp on a field, you'd need a Ferrari to struggle for ground clearance on a field. Moving on, whenever I buy furnature it tends to get delivered if it's anything big as part of the sale. If it's a new packed desk or something, I can fit that in my car. And towing, well most car's can tow decent loads. All your doing is saying you prefer more space and a bigger vehicle, which is fine, but it's not proving that families are better off with SUV's.

 

[Joey D]

Yeah families can get by fine in family saloons, but preference is key. I'd probably never have an SUV, with or without a family rich or poor. I'd much rather an estate, but some people like say Blazin, would rather and SUV to an estate.

I would hardly call my Blazer an SUV, it's more like a hatchback.

But my mom owns a Pacifica and I think those are pretty pointless, it's not an SUV nor is it a van. But I mean she owns her own business and more often then not the thing is packed with boxes. So she does need the cargo room.

When you have kids and you want to go on a road trip, cars pretty much suck because they don't have nearly the room of a nice size SUV.

 

[Dave A]

SUV's have more room sure, but just how much room do 3 kid's need? I'll tell you, less room than 3 adults that can fit in the back of a Passat just fine. I'm not knocking anyone that wants an SUV, or prefers them, but people saying that you need one to take 3 kids on a long journey in comfort is something I dissagree with.

 

[Danoff]

I remember before I me and my sister was born they had a Opel Manta. When we came about they sold it and got a VW passat Estate. After the passat we got a audi 80, kiddie seats and everything and often had 3 people in the back. We also used to drive from england to spain and stuff like that to go on holiday. We managed fine.

When I was 16/17 and some of my older friends started driving we used to get 7 people in fiestas and corsas.... And we were all 5"9 and above.

Sure, I remember riding in my Dad's VW beetle in the space behind the back seat. But it sucked...

The 3 rows of seats for 5 people I dissagree with, you don't need it

I didn't say you needed it. It's nice.

You don't NEED a lot of things. You probably don't NEED a car at all! Certainly not the low mpg sports cars most people talk about around here. NEED, and what you can "get by" with are not the issue here. The issue is:

but it's not proving that families are better off with SUV's

I think I've established that they are actually much better off - have a wider capability with an decent SUV.

 

[Joey D]

Eh you forget how restless kids are, the more room the better and if you have a DVD set up in the back you won't hear much from them the entire trip. I know I like my room in the back of a car. I remember four teenage guys, me being one of them, went to Toronto last summer (6hours) and we were in a Dodge Startus. It was the most uncomfortable ride I've ever had in a car. I know if we would have been in say a Cherokee it would have been more comfortable.

 

[Danoff]

SUV's have more room sure, but just how much room do 3 kid's need? I'll tell you, less room than 3 adults that can fit in the back of a Passat just fine. I'm not knocking anyone that wants an SUV, or prefers them, but people saying that you need one to take 3 kids on a long journey in comfort is something I dissagree with.

Have you ever done it? Have you taken 3 kids on a long road trip in a 5-seater?

 

[Dave A]

Yes, I've also been one of the 3 kid's taken on a long journey in the back of a 5 seater. I've also been on of 3 adults in the back of a 5 seater being taken on a long journey. In a small hatchback getting 3 in the back for a long trip isn't ideal, yeah I can understand wanting more space than a Corsa. But for something like a Passat or a S60 theres plenty of room for 3 kids.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, I've also been one of the 3 kid's taken on a long journey in the back of a 5 seater. I've also been on of 3 adults in the back of a 5 seater being taken on a long journey. In a small hatchback getting 3 in the back for a long trip isn't ideal, yeah I can understand wanting more space than a Corsa. But for something like a Passat or a S60 theres plenty of room for 3 kids.

Well good for you. All I can say is that you have more tolerance for crampedness than I do. When I have kids and want to take road trips with them, I want to be able to sit them in front of a DVD player/video game system and have them entertain themselves rather than pulling each other's hair. I'm sure it'll make for a more peaceful ride for me.

The anti-SUV attitude really grates on me. You guys drool over 5mpg 500 horespower beasts that hold 2 passengers and a backpack, and have trouble crossing speedbumps. But a 20mpg SUV that comfortably seats 7 and can carry large furniture and plants, tow, and drive down a bumpy road, is just too much for you to deal with.

Is it necessary for life? No. Is it nice? Yes. So get over it.

 

[Joey D]

Well good for you. All I can say is that you have more tolerance for crampedness than I do. When I have kids and want to take road trips with them, I want to be able to sit them in front of a DVD player/video game system and have them entertain themselves rather than pulling each other's hair. I'm sure it'll make for a more peaceful ride for me.

The anti-SUV attitude really grates on me. You guys drool over 5mpg 500 horespower beasts that hold 2 passengers and a backpack. But a 20mpg SUV that comfortably seats 7 and can carry large furniture and plants, tow, and drive down a bumpy road, is just too much for you to deal with.

Is it necessary for life? No. Is it nice? Yes. So get over it.

Well said!

 

[Dave A]

I'm not anti-SUV, I've repeatedly said that I don't mind people having, wanting or prefering an SUV to a family car, people carrier, estate ect, in that regard I'm completely on your side. But to say you need one to carry 3 kid's in comfort is not true.

 

[Danoff]

But to say you need one to carry 3 kid's in comfort is not true.

In my experience, it helps a lot.

 

[Tornado]

First off that's pretty lame and I didn't find it funny. People who make fun of SUV's are just idiots. There is nothing wrong with them, some like them some don't, simple as that.

While I agre with you, there is a line that makes an SUV useless. For example, as I've said before, the Mercedes ML-class and both BMW SUV's are nigh useless for anything: sporty driving, cargo space, people space, etc. On the other end of the spectrum, things bigger than the Chevrolet Suburban (particularly the Ford Excursion and upcoming Epedition + or whatevr it's called) are just silly, trying to be jack of all trade vehicles and failing at all of them. Personally, I would prefer a good estate (like a Vista Cruiser or AMC Eagle 4WD) to an SUV.

But show me something that can haul 7 people comforatbly, pull a boat, carry the gear, and get through the snow...and oh ya is for sale in America and doesn't cost a ton of money.

Again, Dodge Sprinter 2500. $33k, 30 MPG. Mercedes bread van action!

In the US there is no reason to buy European SUV's, you are paying something double the price for something that is equally as good. Land Rovers are so unGodly expensive around here there is no point in owning one

Now I think that is unfair. The crappiest SUV sold in America right now, especially from a value standpoint, is the Hummer H1. Any Land Rover or G-wagen can do anything any Hummer can do, in far more comfort, and cost far less (or, in the G-wagen's case, about the same). The fact that a far different clientel buys the things is irrevelant. Hell, even the Touareg and Volvo XC90 are pretty good off-road, and they are both pretty good cars period. That doesn't change the fact that you can buy better vehicles from both companies, (like the All-road and XC-70, for example), but that wasn't the discussion anyways.

 

[Joey D]

While I agre with you, there is a line that makes an SUV useless. For example, as I've said before, the Mercedes ML-class and both BMW SUV's are nigh useless for anything: sporty driving, cargo space, people space, etc. On the other end of the spectrum, things bigger than the Chevrolet Suburban (particularly the Ford Excursion and upcoming Epedition + or whatevr it's called) are just silly, trying to be jack of all trade vehicles and failing at all of them. Personally, I would prefer a good estate (like a Vista Cruiser or AMC Eagle 4WD) to an SUV.

Some people have a use for an Excursion...ask GTP's own memeber Gil. He'll explain to you all day long why he needs it.

Again, Dodge Sprinter 2500. $33k, 30 MPG. Mercedes bread van action!

I would never drive a Dodge Sprinter...that it by far one of the worst ideas for a passenger vehicle I've ever seen. You could proably sneeze and it would roll over.

Now I think that is unfair. The crappiest SUV sold in America right now, especially from a value standpoint, is the Hummer H1. Any Land Rover or G-wagen can do anything any Hummer can do, in far more comfort, and cost far less (or, in the G-wagen's case, about the same). The fact that a far different clientel buys the things is irrevelant. Hell, even the Touareg and Volvo XC90 are pretty good off-road, and they are both pretty good cars period. That doesn't change the fact that you can buy better vehicles from both companies, (like the All-road and XC-70, for example), but that wasn't the discussion anyways.

Hardly anyone owns H1's, and they are by no means bad. If they were bad the US military wouldn't be bothered with them. And look at a normal SUV, Tahoe vs. the Volvo. The Tahoe will be cheaper and does everything except be as safe as the Volvo. As for off road you don't need any more then being able to handel muddy back roads and snowy weather...even a Blazer can handel that.

 

[Tornado]

Some people have a use for an Excursion...ask GTP's own memeber Gil. He'll explain to you all day long why he needs it.

I'll have to talk to him about it, because I can't think of a reason that you would need one. Not being rude, I just can't.

I would never drive a Dodge Sprinter...that it by far one of the worst ideas for a passenger vehicle I've ever seen. You could proably sneeze and it would roll over.

That's like saying a Pinto would explode by hitting it with a shopping cart. Car and Driver tried to tip it over (courtesy of John Phillips), and the ASM came on. The Sprinter is a marvel of packaging, and I highly doubt you could tip it over easily.

Hardly anyone owns H1's, and they are by no means bad. If they were bad the US military wouldn't be bothered with them.

They still sell them though, don't they? They cost $150,000 for a uncomfortable 4 seat hog, that really has little more off-road ability than a 15 year old Cherokee. For that money, you could get a far better Mercedes Benz G-55 AMG which could go alot faster than the H1 and go alot farther than it off-road too. The only reason the U.S. military bothered with the HMMWV was because they were designed to tackle Soviet winters, which was something the CJ couldn't do because of the skinny tires on the military version of the CJ at the time. They only still use the HMMWV because it's cheaper to do that than comission a replacement.

And look at a normal SUV, Tahoe vs. the Volvo. The Tahoe will be cheaper and does everything except be as safe as the Volvo. As for off road you don't need any more then being able to handel muddy back roads and snowy weather...even a Blazer can handel that.

Fine. Then buy a Passat Wagon 4motion. It's cheaper than the Tahoe and does everything and is safer than the Tahoe, and it can handle muddy backroads. I hope you get my point. The Volvo is a crossover with a surprisingly high amount of off-road ability, and thus really can't be compared to the big body on frame Tahoe.