Suzuki Cappacino RM Racing 4-17

[Müle]

No dibs until the sign-up thread is made ;]

About that, you may as well make it now. You can always change things you need to change later.

 

[fatrab]

We can have an exhibition race based on the format StigsHero is suggesting. Gives us a chance to smooth out and kinks in the process.

How about we kill this thread and start a new one with better info in the OP, and one where the name of the car is spelt correctly?

 

[BrandonW77]

We need to sort out the qualifying procedure and then I'll start a new thread, with proper spelling.

Mule's proposed qualifying format:
-Say the race is on Sunday. You have a qualifying session on Friday, and a qualifying session on Saturday. Two session in case people can't make one.

-Either in groups of 1, 2, or 3, have them take the track, and start a 4 lap race.

-When the race starts, the first guy goes, while the other two wait for 20-30 seconds, then the second guy goes, third guy waits, then he goes.

-In the rooms, you can watch 1 guy, and other people in the room can watch others if needed, to make sure their laps are clean.

-Lap 1 is just an outlap, or warm-up lap. laps 2 and 3 count as your flying or timed laps, and lap 4 is an "inlap" used to make sure you have enough time to write down the lap time.

-----------------------------

My questions:
It seems like this would take quite a while. How long do your qualifying sessions normally last? I would prefer to do qualifying on the same day as the race if possible. It's already going to be hard enough to schedule the race for a time that the majority of people can attend. Having to schedule a separate qualifying session would just add the to difficulty.

Do you take an average time of their flying laps or just their fastest of the 2? I presume the host has to have a pen and paper handy so they can record the times and then organize them accordingly? Then I'd have to type it all into the chat box so everybody knows where they're supposed to start?

This just seems like a big, complicated hassle to me. It adds a load of time to the event and also puts more on my plate to deal with. My goal was to create something simple that nobody had to really think about, required no effort from the drivers and wouldn't cause a lot of extra work for myself. Since these cars are all spec'd evenly and pretty slow, I can't see that qualifying is even going to be that big of a deal, another reason I wanted to go with something quick and simple.

To clarify the process I proposed, from the drivers point of view:
You go out on the track to practice for 20 or 30 minutes. At some point I'll ask everyone to return to the pits (not the lobby) and then will start a 5 lap race. Everybody races and collects a little cash. After the race everyone returns to the pits, I change the lap count to 30 or 40 or whatever, then hit the "start race" button and we race again. Quick, simple, requires nothing from the drivers other than going to the pits at the appropriate time, and requires nothing from me other than asking everyone to go to the pits and changing the lap count. Quick, simple, basically idiot-proof. Just like the Cappuccino.

But I've pretty much given up on this plan, so I need clarification from Mule or Wardez on how to run the more detailed qualifying format before I start an official thread.


Brandon

 

[Johnnypenso]

I haven't read the whole thread so if I cover something already said, well stuff happens. I am a pretty busy guy like most of you, and making one race night a week is sometimes hard, but qualifying one night and racing another would seem to be drastic overkill to me. I don't see what's wrong with holding a qaulifying session right before the race for say 20-30 minutes then start fastest first and away you go. If you're worried about lag...someone not starting...then don't start the race until you hear everyone is in the race, say go and off you go. Or, do a pace lap, line up on the grid in your spot again, and the organizer says go and off you go. Anyone that doesn't follow instructions and starts early, gets a fixed finish position of say qualifying spot - 2 or -3. That's fix early starters, but it's rare to begin with.

Let's not overcomplicate things.

 

[fatrab]

I don't see what is wrong with the "idiot-proof" version of the race. At the end of the day, it depends how serious you want the series to be. To start with, I think we can keep it simple and if there are major flaws in the structure then it can be reviewed.

Personally, I don't think I would want to participate in something which has a complex structure (ie. qualifying one day, then racing another) but then other people would prefer something like that. Regardless of which ever way you go, you're not going to be able to appeal to everyone.

I reckon you should just get the season happening to generate interest and then maybe in the 2nd season make improvements or changes as you see fit (or make none at all if season 1 was a success). .

 

[BrandonW77]

Fatrab, you see things exactly the way I do. I was trying to keep things simple so we could have a solid foundation to build the league from. I know I can't satisfy all the people all the time and I tried to be as flexible as I could on most things but it seemed that my idea for a simple qualifying format was starting to run people off.

I offered to organize/run the league based on the idea it was going to be fairly simple and straightforward, which would be fitting for the RM Capp cars. I personally have never had any problems with holding qualifying as a free run and then just starting the race based on the fastest times. But it seemed a majority of people have had problems with that format so I tried to steer away from it. I'll do whatever appeals to the largest number of people so we can always have full grids. Until it gets too complicated, then I'll hand it off to somebody else.

 

[CodeRedR51]

This just seems like a big, complicated hassle to me. It adds a load of time to the event and also puts more on my plate to deal with.

It's not complicated at all. You just have to devote the time to do everything correctly. Unfortunately it looks like you don't want to do it that way, so you should probably just limit the series to 16 drivers and call it a day.

 

[MindlessRiff]

Well he did say it was his first time organising this sort of thing, maybe when we're in the swing of things and feel more comfortable we can up the ante and run a more complicated quali proceedure, let people find their feet, we're not all massively experienced!

I'm pretty neutral on what we actually do for it really, but imo, just start simple and ramp it up unless people object. Then it's a learning experience for all! Or something... lol

As long as we have a (near) full grid, I'm honestly not bothered :3

 

[fatrab]

Either way, 16 drivers is a good number for a new series.

 

[BrandonW77]

You just have to devote the time to do everything correctly. Unfortunately it looks like you don't want to do it that way, so you should probably just limit the series to 16 drivers and call it a day.

Everybody has a different opinion of what "correct" is, just look around this board for proof. But in reality, there is no "correct" way to do things. Every group of people wants something different so whatever works best for the group is the closest to a "correct" way to do it. Just because 1 league has done things a certain way and it's worked for them does not mean that it will work for every league on this site. That's why we should start simple and figure out what works best for THIS group before implementing rules/procedures from other leagues.

Last time I checked, the maximum number of drivers that can be in a race is 16. So I'm not real clear on why we would want more than that? I can't change how many people are allowed on the track at once. I have offered to run the races on 2 different nights which means we could have up to 32 drivers in the league. But if that means we then have to have 2 separate qualifying sessions and I have to manually record 2 sets of qualifying times and then figure out the lineup for 2 different races, then I don't think I'll be doing that. I have quite a bit of time to devote to this and plan on taking it pretty seriously, but I'm not going to let it take up every free minute I have.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Everybody has a different opinion of what "correct" is, just look around this board for proof. But in reality, there is no "correct" way to do things.

That's not what I meant.

What I meant was if you do it the way I do it, correctly, then it's not a problem. It's really not that complicated.

 

[t_ray_z28]

... in reality, there is no "correct" way to do things. Every group of people wants something different so whatever works best for the group is the closest to a "correct" way to do it. Just because 1 league has done things a certain way and it's worked for them does not mean that it will work for every league on this site. That's why we should start simple and figure out what works best for THIS group before implementing rules/procedures from other leagues.

Last time I checked, the maximum number of drivers that can be in a race is 16. So I'm not real clear on why we would want more than that?

Not trying to muddy the waters anymore than they already are, just giving you a what I see from my perspective.. I havn't seen how many people are really interested in this seriously, but from what I can tell, holding seperate qualifying sessions is only really useful if you have WAY too many people for one race and want to run the top 16, closest matched drivers. If you were willing to do 2 races with even 2 quali sessions, you could have the 2 classes as even an A and B grade class for fastest and, not to step on any toes, slowest drivers. I've never seen a problem with the 30 minute practice/quali session, then just going for it, but it limits the people in the race to a first-come-first-serve group. Just depends on how you want the actual group of drivers to be, in terms of skill level. IMO, Either way, still, sign me up!

 

[BrandonW77]

When I say "complicated" I mean it adds more work for me and more instructions for the drivers to follow. Anything that requires 1 person to record everyone's lap times, then put them in order, then relay that information to the drivers, then monitor everyone as they line up, adds a lot of extra steps and extra work for the host. Because I have very little experience doing this I'm trying not to overload myself to start with, that way I can focus on everything and get used to how things are going to work. From there we can evolve into whatever sounds clever!

After following the evolution of this thread I was under the impression that the majority wanted it to be a simple and fun league with a simple and fun car. I read up on the history of the first Capp Cup and tried to stick as close to that as I could. If the majority of the group now wants it to be a very intricate league with multiple days of qualifying, the slowest drivers being eliminated via qualifiers, and custom starting grids using a "non-automatic" system, then maybe somebody with more experience should take over from here. Or maybe they can start a separate division for the "advanced group" and run their races independently. I'm really looking forward to this, but I kinda feel like I'm getting crucified before we've even run a practice race together. Maybe everybody's just stir-crazy from the lack of PSN.

 

[fatrab]

Nah, I think a lot of people are happy to go with whatever you propose. 👍

I am just looking forward to the official thread! And hopefully it will be run at a time which suits (EDT )

 

[t_ray_z28]

Nah, I think a lot of people are happy to go with whatever you propose. 👍

I am just looking forward to the official thread! And hopefully it will be run at a time which suits (EDT )

Yeah, what he said! I just want to race! lol

 

[BrandonW77]

If we had some kind of functioning Playstation Network, I'd be happy to accommodate! I really hope that gets fixed soon!!

 

[CodeRedR51]

When I say "complicated" I mean it adds more work for me and more instructions for the drivers to follow. Anything that requires 1 person to record everyone's lap times, then put them in order, then relay that information to the drivers, then monitor everyone as they line up, adds a lot of extra steps and extra work for the host.

True. Depends on how devoted you want to be.

But, do what you wish. I probably won't be running anyways since I won't have the time. I do wish you luck. 👍

 

[BrandonW77]

I plan to be as devoted as possible, but I also know not to put too much on my plate at the start. We could get over-complicated and the whole thing would be a giant mess that nobody wants to deal with. It may still end up that way eventually, but I think if I can start kinda simple and build from there then we will have a pretty solid foundation to build on and experiment with.

Things have been kinda busy with me the last couple days, but I should have an official, new thread started by tomorrow. Stay tuned.


Brandon

 

[Müle]

Either way, 16 drivers is a good number for a new series.

About this, another pointer:

Don't restrict entries to just 16 people. Let anybody who wants to sign up, sign up. This way it keeps interest up, and in the case you get more than 16, there isn't some stupid "reserve list" that you see all over the place here.

Easily one of my biggest pet peeves here.

 

[fatrab]

Fair enough. But how then do you handle 18 people wanting to race on any given night?

 

[Mudd]

I wouldnt worry about that until the entry list is up. If there's to many people at that time, then worry about it

 

[BrandonW77]

That's why I like the idea of having races on 2 nights, it allows us to have twice the number of drivers and it allows people to participate on the night that fits their schedule best. Some people are only free on weekends and some are more available during the week, so we'd have something for both groups. It looked like the first Capp Cup did things this way, and I think that's a good way to address a couple problems so I'd like to try that. I have the time to run it on two nights and keep track of both groups (as long as qualifying doesn't add too much time). And if enough people keep joining we could add a third night.

Hopefully it would kind of naturally split the grid up so we'd have a solid 8-12 drivers (or more) on both nights. That would give us a little bit of room for new drivers wanting to join and also help counteract the occasional person that will drop out. What works for me would be some combination of Tuesday/Friday night and Saturday/Sunday since those are the times I'm usually free. We already have a pretty good number of people interested so I don't think we'd have a problem getting 2 grids together. 👍


Brandon

 

[Müle]

Fair enough. But how then do you handle 18 people wanting to race on any given night?

Well, that goes hand in hand with the qualifying method me and RT have been pitching.

 

[Culkin]

Fair enough. But how then do you handle 18 people wanting to race on any given night?

2 races of 9 random players over 2 servers, full races is all good but many dont mind smaller races too....points would obviously have to be same over both but balanced differently compared to full grid points

 

[BrandonW77]

Having qualifiers means some people wouldn't get to race. I don't want that. I'd rather just split people up over 2 different races and they can run for their own points. That's presuming the same groups of people race together. If we split them up randomly then we'd either have to figure out a points system balanced by grid size, or I could combine everybody's accumulated times from the races and award points based on that. I'd prefer that to a balanced point system, but I've never experienced either so I can't say for sure.

 

[Dapper]

What I meant was if you do it the way I do it, correctly, then it's not a problem. It's really not that complicated.

Well, that goes hand in hand with the qualifying method me and RT have been pitching.

It is really funny how right you guys think you are. I race a lot online with the "fastest first" option and it rarely makes mistakes. In fact, I'd guess around 95% of the time it works. Therefore, everything you 2 keeping incessantly "pitching" is actually worthless. Thanks though. 👍

 

[CodeRedR51]

It is really funny how right you guys think you are. I race a lot online with the "fastest first" option and it rarely makes mistakes. In fact, I'd guess around 95% of the time it works. Therefore, everything you 2 keeping incessantly "pitching" is actually worthless. Thanks though. 👍

How is it "worthless" when it works? And when did I ever say the fastest first option makes mistakes? I do it my way because it works for ME. I'm not trying to force it on anyone, he can do whatever the hell he wants, I don't give a 🤬. Just making a suggestion, that several people have suggested as well.

What gives with the attitude? Sheesh. 👎

 

[Wardez]

It is really funny how right you guys think you are. I race a lot online with the "fastest first" option and it rarely makes mistakes. In fact, I'd guess around 95% of the time it works. Therefore, everything you 2 keeping incessantly "pitching" is actually worthless. Thanks though. 👍

You need to realize we're not saying the qualifying method's a replacement for more consistent grids. That makes no sense since we rely on GT5 to grid us up exactly by "fastest first" when we get in our line up.

We're not pulling stuff out of nowhere but it's hard to reason when people come in and think we're just making stuff up.

It's the only way to go for running a serious competitive league where more than 16 people want to qualify for their chance to race. That's it. The rest can race each other in a separate "B room" or "Division 2" race that takes place at the same time, directly before or after the main race.
You would simply appoint someone in the second room to save the replay, take a snapshot of the results so the main organizer can collate them with the rest of the results.

It's not worthless as it creates the closest racing, track to track, of any other method.

But I really don't want to get in the way of the core idea that Brandon has for the series. At this point I'm just defending our proven process but respect any alternative Brandon sees fit for starting the new series.
He wants to learn and experiment and has clearly stated it so I think it's awesome he's willing to take the plunge, it's not easy running a league.

So we're gonna go with the fun & not too serious route so people can just get racing.

If it gets serious then we'll think about different options but if it just drops off it drops off.

 

[Dapper]

...Yet, it continues! to the awesome redundancy you guys are capable of.

 

[Wardez]

...Yet, it continues! to the awesome redundancy you guys are capable of.

If you think we're being redundant then you obviously choose to be ignorant of what it is we're trying to say and where it comes from so it's worthless to try to convince you of anything.

I remember you from back in the early Spec Miata days too.