T10 forcing PD's Hand?

[Devedander]

The way the models show in the menu screen; the amount of insane detail in the exteriors and interiors, the look of the tracks, the little movies about the locations, the menu's themselves. It is something special to say the least. I feel that only PD can get this elusive aspect right. It is not something that can be copied; it has to be earned over the years.

It sounds like the eye candy is a large part of what moves you... I love the eye candy myself, everything in GT has that shiny, just after it rained look... how everything is bright and vibrant, the colors pop and everything is just a little more contrasty than it really probably should be, but it's how you remember it - a little better than reality

But that said, if that's the trade off for in depth anything else, then it is still a tradeoff. Kind of like how I am always a sucker for a super hot girl even if a less attractive one is a more intelligent or has a better personality

 

[Bogie 19th]

If they don't flatten those layers pre-race, then T10 are a bunch of idiots.

Yup, they could be total idiots.

GT has physics too, but twice as many cars on track (not to mention much better graphics).

Yup. Though GT might calculating substantially less physics. We don't know, but it could be a reason. Somebody asked, and I am just taking guesses. Do you know the reason why?

 

[Devedander]

Could be a lot of things... could be horsepower put into graphics elsewhere (ie backgrouns rendered in 3d instead of photo mapping some parts - although I am not sure how prevalent that is), could be that they really are using much more complex math for their physics than GT and multiplied by the number of cars, resources get taxed. Could be also that with that much math, the horespower is there to do the number crunching but a bottleneck occurs at the bus or something and they just can't get more results as fast... could be T10 is just not as experienced at the game so they have things that could be optimized better... there are a lot of could be's... we know a fair bit about F3 math under the hood but very little about GT so it's kind of hard to make any comparisons...

 

[G.T.Ace]

Or it could be because the PS3 is more powerful.

(ie backgrouns rendered in 3d instead of photo mapping some parts - although I am not sure how prevalent that is)

The backgrounds in FM3 (further away) are textures, so i doubt it.

 

[Devedander]

Or it could be because the PS3 is more powerful.

The backgrounds in FM3 (further away) are textures, so i doubt it.

Could be any number of things.... considering the history of games that have looked and or performed better on the 360, that's probably not a statement that can just be made in general.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Or it could be because the PS3 is more powerful.

Could be. Or the PS3 could be less powerful too. The 360 can do 16 players online with NFS Shift. We may never know. The only thing I have heard from Turn 10 is that they feel 8 players is the sweet spot for racing. Could be PR BS.

 

[Earth]

Could be. Or the PS3 could be less powerful too. We may never know. The only thing I have heard from Turn 10 is that they feel 8 players is the sweet spot for racing. Could be PR BS.

I think it is. Sort of like how Bungie says they don't want more then 16 players online in Halo 3 because there would be too much spawn killing. The only sweet spot for car count should be how many cars participate in real life. It's like PD saying 16 cars is the sweet spot for NASCAR when every NASCAR race has 43.

The general consencus in the console industry is that the PS3 has more potential then the 360.

Multiplatform games sometimes look better on the 360 because the developers have had more experience with the 360 and they optimized the code for the 360 first. Also the PS3 has a higher learning curve.

 

[Bogie 19th]

The general consencus in the console industry is that the PS3 has more potential then the 360.

Actually, it's not. But that doesn't matter. The consensus is that both have advantages and disadvantages, and in the end, they are of equal capabilities overall.

Multiplatform games sometimes look better on the 360 because the developers have had more experience with the 360 and they optimized the code for the 360 first. Also the PS3 has a higher learning curve.

We are talking about why FM3 doesn't have more than 8 cars online or off (not graphics of multiplatform games). And since you mentioned it, I stated before, NFS Shift has 16 on the 360. Halo 3 and more than 16 players? Well, there are other games on the 360 that have more than 16 players. 32, 48, 50.

So based on that, I don't think it's because of the 360 in it's entirety, though both consoles are dated and old by today's standards.

 

[Dravonic]

Actually, it's not. But that doesn't matter. The consensus is that both have advantages and disadvantages, and in the end, they are of equal capabilities overall.

I don't know about the console industry or media or whatever but anyone with basic knowledge on the consoles knows their advantages and disadvantages.

The 360 has a slight edge on the graphics card. In the rest, the PS3 has the edge and a quite significant edge with the CPU.

So you could be right. The physics could be the problem since they are CPU calculations and the Xenon is significantly slower than the Cell. However, I doubt physics are the reason of Forza shortcomings. They are quite easy to calculate with newer processors. The hard thing is dealing with the polygons, textures, lighting, graphics overall.

You may be thinking "Shouldn't Forza have more cars and better graphics, then? It's running on a slightly faster graphics card". I wish it was that easy. There are just too many things going on. It's too complex to be able to be narrowed down like that. For example, the 360 has a huge bottle neck to minimize production costs. It has a single memory chip that the CPU and the GPU have to share. If the GPU is using the memory the CPU has to wait and vice versa. It has some advantages, like not being limited to 256mb memory dedicated to graphics like the PS3 is, but the main problem is, it's slower. Also, the graphics card is directly dependent on the CPU since it's the CPU that tells the GPU what to render. If it's slower your GPU will have some limitations. Another thing is that the 256mb of memory dedicated to the Cell is a lot faster (more than twice as fast) than the GDDR3 memory used by the Xenon that it also has to share with the GPU.

PS3 has more power to be squeezed by PD, so that's a problem Turn 10 has to deal with but bottom line, I can't tell the reason really. There are too many possibilities.

My best bet is the code. Code is of equal if not bigger importance than the hardware. It's really easy to see what a better code can do. Just compare GT5P to Shift. Both are using the same resources, GT5P is running at twice the frame rate, but it still looks a lot better.

Also, serversurfer is right about not merging the layers into a single one being stupid. That can't be a reason why Forza have less cars at all since it's just not what Turn 10 did. They must be merging the layers into one texture. If not, they would be too stupid to be able to make the game in the first place.

 

[The Dragon Rebo]

Or it could be because the PS3 is more powerful.

the level of power that the gran tursimo engine is outputting is frankly unbelieavble. they have double the cars of forza more resolution and all at 60fps.


which makes me wonder how on earth is real time damage modelling and rain going to be implemented? if PD does do it then all one can say is RESPECT

 

[Devedander]

the level of power that the gran tursimo engine is outputting is frankly unbelieavble. they have double the cars of forza more resolution and all at 60fps.


which makes me wonder how on earth is real time damage modelling and rain going to be implemented? if PD does do it then all one can say is RESPECT

PD already has a massive amount of respect from me in the graphics department. They consistently crank out some truly amazing graphics. I think they have some tricks up their sleeves for shortcuts to great looking results learning from all their past iterations.

 

[serversurfer]

Somebody asked, and I am just taking guesses. Do you know the reason why?

It's a combination of a lot of things, but in a nutshell, the PS3 is just considerably more powerful. Dravonic did a pretty good job of explaining in what ways, and it's a combination of all of these factors. But it's certainly not because of liveries, and I doubt it has much to do with the physics as such.

we know a fair bit about F3 math under the hood but very little about GT so it's kind of hard to make any comparisons...

Indeed. That's why I found it odd Bogie thought physics (and liveries) were the reason. I thought maybe he knew something the rest of us didn't, but I guess I assumed too much, though I suppose the comment about liveries should've tipped me off.

 

[Devedander]

My best bet is the code. Code is of equal if not bigger importance than the hardware. It's really easy to see what a better code can do. Just compare GT5P to Shift. Both are using the same resources, GT5P is running at twice the frame rate, but it still looks a lot better.

I think experienced programmers, especially ones experienced in finding shortcuts to get the results you want can make a HUGE difference in the final product as you say.

If you find a programmer who has learned how to get 95% as good looking reflections as ray tracing, but does it with some tricky code at 1/20th the processor utilization, or even better pawns it off somehow on a less utilized part of the system, that can get you some great results.

I think this plays a lot in GT. You have a company who has been doing the same thing (by this I mean making great looking cars) for a decade and a half. They for sure have learned some tricks by now, how to get something really good for very little resources.

I mean the recent revelation of the tricky GTPSP video shifting trick... very nice!

 

[serversurfer]

I think experienced programmers, especially ones experienced in finding shortcuts to get the results you want can make a HUGE difference in the final product as you say.

If you find a programmer who has learned how to get 95% as good looking reflections as ray tracing, but does it with some tricky code at 1/20th the processor utilization, or even better pawns it off somehow on a less utilized part of the system, that can get you some great results.

I think this plays a lot in GT. You have a company who has been doing the same thing (by this I mean making great looking cars) for a decade and a half. They for sure have learned some tricks by now, how to get something really good for very little resources.

I don't think you're giving T10 enough credit. They have 300 employees. Even if a third of them are shills, that's still twice as many actual programmers as PD. Surely some of those guys know some good tricks. (I realize they're MS programmers, but still. Give them a little credit.)

I'm inclined to think the real issue is you can't get blood from a turnip. Though this puts T10 in kind of an interesting predicament. Do they piss off the boss by pointing out the hardware sucks, or piss off the boss by saying they just aren't very good at their jobs? Maybe they should just say their game is the best and hope someone believes them.

I mean the recent revelation of the tricky GTPSP video shifting trick... very nice!

That is indeed a cool trick, but my understanding is it dates back to the PS2*. It's just noteworthy because no one's ever done it on the PSP. (Or at least, no one's ever noticed, if someone has.)

*I suppose it's possible PD pioneered it on the PS2, but I haven't heard anything to that effect.

 

[LR-PR-ProtoX]

Honestly I don't think GT5 will be running 60fps, even GT5 doesn't run at that and even I am sure we all agree there times the frame rate drops a lot specially when playing single player. If they can lock at 40fps, should be good enough. Then again Forza 3 yes it does have few cars but it does run 100% 60fps, so smooth. I think 8 cars is fine in my opinion but then again 16 cars is even better.

 

[Devedander]

I don't think you're giving T10 enough credit. They have 300 employees. Even if a third of them are shills, that's still twice as many actual programmers as PD. Surely some of those guys know some good tricks. (I realize they're MS programmers, but still. Give them a little credit.)

Well I give them credit, but there is something to be said for working on the same type of thing for generations... a crew of mechanics might not be able to pull off some of the stuff a small group of mechanics dedicated to one manufacturer for a decade could.

That is indeed a cool trick, but my understanding is it dates back to the PS2*. It's just noteworthy because no one's ever done it on the PSP. (Or at least, no one's ever noticed, if someone has.)

*I suppose it's possible PD pioneered it on the PS2, but I haven't heard anything to that effect.

This is the first time I have specifically heard about it... so maybe it's an old trick but I don't recall it being touted before.

Honestly I don't think GT5 will be running 60fps, even GT5 doesn't run at that and even I am sure we all agree there times the frame rate drops a lot specially when playing single player. If they can lock at 40fps, should be good enough. Then again Forza 3 yes it does have few cars but it does run 100% 60fps, so smooth. I think 8 cars is fine in my opinion but then again 16 cars is even better.

I think KY specifically said it would run 1080p at 60fps. Now who knows if that will really be what's in the box, but I think they will be bustinng their butts at PD to make it happen if at all possible.

I remember some of the bigger races in Toca and 24 hr LeMans... man those were fun...

 

[serversurfer]

Honestly I don't think GT5 will be running 60fps, even GT5 doesn't run at that and even I am sure we all agree there times the frame rate drops a lot specially when playing single player.

Two years is a lot of time for engine optimizing.

Just sayin'.

Edit:

Well I give them credit, but there is something to be said for working on the same type of thing for generations... a crew of mechanics might not be able to pull off some of the stuff a small group of mechanics dedicated to one manufacturer for a decade could.

While I'm inclined to agree that the crew at PD are probably just plain better, I still think the hardware is the main difference here. If T10 got to make their game on the PS3, it would likely be much better than it is, but I agree it likely still wouldn't be as good as GT.

This is the first time I have specifically heard about it... so maybe it's an old trick but I don't recall it being touted before.

I actually hadn't heard of it either, but one of the articles I read said it harkened back to the PS2 era. (Or it may have been in some of the comments. /shrug)

 

[The Dragon Rebo]

Honestly I don't think GT5 will be running 60fps, even GT5 doesn't run at that

It's amazing they could do all that with those fantastic realistic driving physics.Just imagine Cell 2.0 with more ram and more powerful gpu

 

[Dravonic]

Honestly I don't think GT5 will be running 60fps, even GT5 doesn't run at that and even I am sure we all agree there times the frame rate drops a lot specially when playing single player. If they can lock at 40fps, should be good enough. Then again Forza 3 yes it does have few cars but it does run 100% 60fps, so smooth. I think 8 cars is fine in my opinion but then again 16 cars is even better.

As far as I know, GT5P does run at 60fps even though it has a some frame rate drops as you said. Most of them are hard to notice but some are quite noticeable.

Anyway, the reason why Forza has no frame drops (confirmed already? Just because the demo has no problems it doesn't mean the full game won't. Different cars, different tracks...) is because Turn 10 took the easy route. They are underusing the hardware so they don't need to iron out the many problematic areas. It's easier to deal with but the results are not as good. PD in the other hand are pushing the hardware to the limit and in result have to burst their asses to fix the problematic areas that cause frame drops.

While I'm inclined to agree that the crew at PD are probably just plain better, I still think the hardware is the main difference here. If T10 got to make their game on the PS3, it would likely be much better than it is, but I agree it likely still wouldn't be as good as GT.

While I did point out that there are differences in the hardware that give the PS3 a considerable edge and PD are privileged in that aspect, I think you're giving them too little credit. PD are proven to be graphical wizards since GT1. They put other first party titles to graphical shame. These guys certainly are the main reason behind the amazing graphics. The hardware helps, but that's all it does.

 

[TBR 427]

I agree 100%.

I raced 50 other cars on GTR Evo around the GP 500 track. Around lap 20 there was traffic everywhere. Probably one of the best races i have ever had in any game.

24 on any game would be good, 16 is barely passable, 8 is unforgivable.

how did you get 50 car on track in GTR Evo? I have no problems with getting 107 AI in GTR2, but I can't get it to register more than 24 in Evo.

How do I raced 50 cars?

While I did point out that there are differences in the hardware that give the PS3 a considerable edge and PD are privileged in that aspect, I think you're giving them too little credit. PD are proven to be graphical wizards since GT1. They put other first party titles to graphical shame. These guys certainly are the main reason behind the amazing graphics. The hardware helps, but that's all it does.

right on. These guys did wonders with the PS2, and it was head and shoulders above 99% of other games, graphically, as well as the sheer amount of content.


And with promises of 5mb photos from photo mode (as opposed to 100kb pics from F3, which you HAVE TO upload...), they're finally making good on what they're great at.

 

[JakeCourtney]

Honestly I don't think GT5 will be running 60fps, even GT5 doesn't run at that and even I am sure we all agree there times the frame rate drops a lot specially when playing single player. If they can lock at 40fps, should be good enough. Then again Forza 3 yes it does have few cars but it does run 100% 60fps, so smooth. I think 8 cars is fine in my opinion but then again 16 cars is even better.

Yes, 60fps with NO SLOWDOWNS, or TEARING. GT5P is like a slide show at some points and the screen tearing is horrible.

There is no way I can go back to playing on anything other than full 60 fps.

 

[RedBaron]

I can only smile, Prologue was technological demo and first taste of newly developed engine for PS3. Every full GT game has been running in 60fps, no matter what was on the screen. Could you imagine GT5 not to do so when even GTPSP did?

 

[Organ-Donor]

Yes, 60fps with NO SLOWDOWNS, or TEARING. GT5P is like a slide show at some points and the screen tearing is horrible.
There is no way I can go back to playing on anything other than full 60 fps.

Really? A slideshow? Exaggerate much? And horrible screen tearing???

 

[TokyoDrift]

I have to agree with RedBaron here - prologue was just Work in Progress, a techno-demo to basically rake in a bit of money and shut up people who were whining about not having anything to play. There is already a world of difference between the recent builds and prologue. It's only going to improve even more.

As for prologue being a slideshow at times - I've never noticed it, and I find screen tearing to be just as dependent on the display. Prologue is not bad in this respect.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Not to start an argument or go off topic, but major slowdown in GT5P? Where?

I would love to see this tearing/slowdown for myself as its run perfectly for me. If you could give me a specific race where the game really struggles i'll be really glad to see it for myself.

 

[TBR 427]

Not to start an argument or go off topic, but major slowdown in GT5P? Where?

I would love to see this tearing/slowdown for myself as its run perfectly for me. If you could give me a specific race where the game really struggles i'll be really glad to see it for myself.

I THINK for some reason practice in online mode loses about 10 fps (or, at least it looks like it), for no obvious reason.


But seriously anyone complaining of EPIC slowdown or screen tearing are fooling nobody. Not saying there isn't a bit every now and then (from the vid at London), but not worth bring a ***** over.

 

[steiner]

at the headlights on the stock cars comment!

Nobody outside of America watches Nascar so it's funny when they realize that stock cars don't have headlights!

well actualy the funny thing is (from my oh-so-serious-german point of view ) why are there even stickers?
are they fooling the audience? sorry, but this is just plain stupid.

Theres no need for headlights, so why on earth is there a need for imitating them?
sorry, this just doesnt add up at all..

 

[RedBaron]

The headlight stickers are there to resemble real mainstream car of given manufacturer and to serve as an ad. Nothing hard to understand to me.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

well actualy the funny thing is (from my oh-so-serious-german point of view ) why are there even stickers?
are they fooling the audience? sorry, but this is just plain stupid.

Theres no need for headlights, so why on earth is there a need for imitating them?
sorry, this just doesnt add up at all..

Just to add to RedBaron, the stickers are purely to associate the car with a real life counterpart.

Last year when i was in America, we hired a Dodge Charger, it had badges inside the car and a booklet promoting how good the 'Charger' nascar was doing, and how by driving a real charger your supporting your team.

This year, i believe dodge have changed the stickers on the car to make it 'resemble' a Dodge Challenger, the latest model Dodge are trying to premote. Even though the Nascar itself isnt really any different underneath, by calling it a Challenger, more people will consider buying a Challenger.

Its purely advertising and promotion.

 

[serversurfer]

PD are proven to be graphical wizards since GT1. They put other first party titles to graphical shame. These guys certainly are the main reason behind the amazing graphics.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was just pointing out the hardware helps a lot too. PD are like Michael in the Ferrari, while T10 are Ralfie in the Toyota. If you put Ralfie in the Ferrari, he'd be a lot faster than he was in the Toyota, but still not as fast as Michael. Similarly, if you instead put Michael in the Toyota, he'd still be faster than Ralfie, but not nearly as fast as he was in the Ferrari.

So as Evan Wells said, it's a combination of the hardware and the people writing the software.