T10 forcing PD's Hand?

[Biggles]

I started playing console sims with Forza 1 on the X box. I then switched to the PS2 & GT4, mostly because of the G25 wheel support. My impression at the time, which I think still holds true, is that PD made a better looking game, largely because GT excluded many of the features that Turn10 introduced:

custom liveries, visual & mechanical damage, & interactive AI.

Now that Turn10 has had more time to hone their skills, they are creating graphics that, while possibly still short of PD's, are as "good as they need to be". It is the PD crew that is under pressure now, to step up & introduce the functionality that Turn10 has been offering (& improving) since Forza 1. I hope they can do it, but I think they have dug themselves a bit of a hole by leaving it so late, & having to deal with the (self-imposed) task of implementing that functionality with "1,000 cars".

 

[serversurfer]

… & having to deal with the (self-imposed) task of implementing that functionality with "1,000 cars".

The solution they've chosen for damage works just as well with 1,000,000 cars as it does with 1.

 

[djanikowski]

Just to add to RedBaron, the stickers are purely to associate the car with a real life counterpart.

Last year when i was in America, we hired a Dodge Charger, it had badges inside the car and a booklet promoting how good the 'Charger' nascar was doing, and how by driving a real charger your supporting your team.

This year, i believe dodge have changed the stickers on the car to make it 'resemble' a Dodge Challenger, the latest model Dodge are trying to premote. Even though the Nascar itself isnt really any different underneath, by calling it a Challenger, more people will consider buying a Challenger.

Its purely advertising and promotion.

The Dodge NASCAR was never changed to Challenger, it is still the Charger.

 

[kohanson]

The Dodge NASCAR was never changed to Challenger, it is still the Charger.

Very beautiful car with a nice backdrop, hope to have this kind of quality in game

 

[G.T.Ace]

The Dodge NASCAR was never changed to Challenger, it is still the Charger.

The Nationwide Dodge is a Challenger now right?

 

[Tenacious D]

A certain car game coming out this month shows off their rides in the showroom exactly the same way Prologue does.

Here we go with games copying other games. A certain car game coming out in March will have damage like some other sim game that I know on consoles.

Typical Bogie response.

And what game is that, seeing as you have no idea what the damage is going to be like? When I saw the bumper hanging from the nose of the Subaru, I was thinking Ferrari Challenge. Then when I saw a door get stripped off by a passing car, I didn't know what to think. If they use Digital Molecular Matter code, where everything is damaged on the fly, what game will that be like?

Look, I know your rear gets sore when Turn 10 is accused of copying Polyphony, but they sure don't help the case when they don't use a showroom style like they used in Forza 1 or 2, but a certain other game they seem to like to crib from, and then diss.

Before Gran Turismo came along, most racing games using street cars mimicked Need For Speed. They were racing on streets and fantasy tracks. Some even had police chases. Some still use that formula. After GT, giving console racing a serious treatment without turbo boosts or police traps, realistic racing on race courses much like a sim, all of a sudden it became cool to have plain old racing again without the laser weapons. I detailed the many, many elements that can only be found in Gran Turismo and a certain other game, and it makes the Forza fans angry and defensive so I won't go there. But when it's "poke in the eye" obvious that Turn 10 lifted yet again something from Gran Turismo, something Microsoft is notorious for in all their software (lifting ideas from others), you can expect those of us who don't want to sleep with Forza to smirk at it.

Now that Turn10 has had more time to hone their skills, they are creating graphics that, while possibly still short of PD's, are as "good as they need to be".

After spending some time back in Forza 2 for some livery shooting, I have to say that I was surprised how right the naysayers were.

Forza 2 does look better than the F3 demo. As good as they need to be? Yeah, I could agree with that, if they had more than eight car races. But taking a graphical step backwards, as I recall GT2 did from GT1, is just weird to me. Especially when the graphics are supposed to be "definitive."

By the way, the physics feel the same too, with the MS wheel.

 

[djanikowski]

The Nationwide Dodge is a Challenger now right?

No, but it might be next year with the Nationwide COT, im not sure but i do know that the Ford COT in the Nationwide series is going to be Mustang.
Here's a pic.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I don't know about the console industry or media or whatever but anyone with basic knowledge on the consoles knows their advantages and disadvantages.

The 360 has a slight edge on the graphics card. In the rest, the PS3 has the edge and a quite significant edge with the CPU.

From what I have read, the 360 has a better than slight edge with the graphics card. The CPU in the PS3 has a large edge in regards to the processing. However, the 360 has another edge with the unified RAM, as noted by many companies that are struggling to get all the textures into a single 256 ram slot on the PS3. It has represented a big bottleneck. If you noticed, the PS3's biggest games are not offering splitscreen/co-op online or off (Killzone 2 for example). In the case of KZ2, the devs even stated that they couldn't push KZ2 split screen without sacrifcing quality. Where as you have a title like GOW2, which doesn't match KZ2's graphic fidelity and physics (but still look hawt), but offers co-op with splitscreen. They sacrificed some appearance for offering the co-op/splitscreen experience, and Epic was able to dump the huge textures of GOW2 into the single 512mb pool.

Both consoles are pretty much spot on for performance in the end.

For example, the 360 has a huge bottle neck to minimize production costs. It has a single memory chip that the CPU and the GPU have to share. If the GPU is using the memory the CPU has to wait and vice versa. It has some advantages, like not being limited to 256mb memory dedicated to graphics like the PS3 is, but the main problem is, it's slower. Also, the graphics card is directly dependent on the CPU since it's the CPU that tells the GPU what to render. If it's slower your GPU will have some limitations. Another thing is that the 256mb of memory dedicated to the Cell is a lot faster (more than twice as fast) than the GDDR3 memory used by the Xenon that it also has to share with the GPU.

Well, 512 is a bottleneck in general, especially compared to 1gb. However, the unified 512 has been seen as an advantage over the split option, which is actually a big bottleneck. Had the PS3 shipped with 1gb of RAM, it would leave the 360 in the dust. With that much RAM and it's processor, it would have opened up the bottleneck, and pretty much eliminated the 360 as a graphical competitor.

But in the end, we still haven't found the answer, since the Xbox 360 is capable of more (16) cars on the screen, and realistic physics from Shift.

Also, serversurfer is right about not merging the layers into a single one being stupid. That can't be a reason why Forza have less cars at all since it's just not what Turn 10 did. They must be merging the layers into one texture. If not, they would be too stupid to be able to make the game in the first place.

He is right as in, it would be stupid. However, nobody knows what they are doing with the liveries. It's just speculation. Merging into one is an optimal idea, but those layers can be edited by all users, so they are either NEVER merged, or they found a way to unmerge them when you put those cars into the hands of other players.

It's a combination of a lot of things

So you don't know why. You are just speculating like the rest of us.

Typical Bogie response.

And what game is that, seeing as you have no idea what the damage is going to be like? When I saw the bumper hanging from the nose of the Subaru, I was thinking Ferrari Challenge. Then when I saw a door get stripped off by a passing car, I didn't know what to think. If they use Digital Molecular Matter code, where everything is damaged on the fly, what game will that be like?

That is damage, right? FM1, FM2, FM3 all have damage. GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4 don't have damage, and now PD is adding damage. Nope, they didn't copy them . But if Turn 10 changed their UI to show the cars similar to PD, then it's a copy job. Nice.

Look, I know your rear gets sore when Turn 10 is accused of copying Polyphony, but they sure don't help the case when they don't use a showroom style like they used in Forza 1 or 2, but a certain other game they seem to like to crib from, and then diss.

Look, I know you like to get your panties all in a bunch over a single game. But face the facts GT copies, as does PD. Learn to enjoy both games and accept critiquing of both games, and your panties might get ironed.

Forza 2 does look better than the F3 demo.

typical Tenacious D response. Funniest thing I have heard in weeks on the forums.

By the way, the physics feel the same too, with the MS wheel.

You should try the demo and the game 👍

 

[serversurfer]

If you noticed, the PS3's biggest games are not offering splitscreen/co-op online or off (Killzone 2 for example).

MotorStorm: Pacific Rift offers four-player split-screen, and that game is beautiful, with great physics (for an arcade racer, at least).

In the case of KZ2, the devs even stated that they couldn't push KZ2 split screen without sacrifcing quality.

That's true of all games, but with a free online service, the argument for local multiplayer just isn't as compelling as it once was.

However, the unified 512 has been seen as an advantage over the split option, which is actually a big bottleneck.

It's only seen as an advantage by fanboys who don't know what they're talking about (or MS lackeys wishing to mislead people). In fact, storing textures in the RAM on the PS3 is free, and storing code in the VRAM is damned near free. (Or maybe it's the other way around…)

He is right as in, it would be stupid. However, nobody knows what they are doing with the liveries. It's just speculation. Merging into one is an optimal idea, but those layers can be edited by all users, so they are either NEVER merged, or they found a way to unmerge them when you put those cars into the hands of other players.

The third option would be T10 has some idea what they're doing, and liveries are stored both merged for racing and unmerged for editing. (You just do the merge as part of the Save process.)

So you don't know why.

Correct. I just know you're wrong.

You are just speculating like the rest of us.

Speculating, yes, but not like all of you.

That is damage, right? FM1, FM2, FM3 all have damage. GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4 don't have damage, and now PD is adding damage. Nope, they didn't copy them . But if Turn 10 changed their UI to show the cars similar to PD, then it's a copy job. Nice.

If PD were using the same damage model as T10, you might have a leg to stand on, but they're not, so you don't. No one is criticizing T10 for having "a showroom." The point is, they're now using exactly the same showroom as PD. PD aren't using exactly the same damage model as T10; they're using a far superior one.

 

[G.T.Ace]

No, but it might be next year with the Nationwide COT, im not sure but i do know that the Ford COT in the Nationwide series is going to be Mustang.
Here's a pic.

Thanks, i wasnt sure if they already have the COTs in the Nationwide series.
The first pics ive seen from the Challenger and Mustang were nice by the way.

 

[Bogie 19th]

MotorStorm: Pacific Rift offers four-player split-screen, and that game is beautiful, with great physics (for an arcade racer, at least).

It's a good looking game, yes. Not great though.

It's only seen as an advantage by fanboys who don't know what they're talking about (or MS lackeys wishing to mislead people).

Whatever suits your agenda 👍

The third option would be T10 has some idea what they're doing, and liveries are stored both merged for racing and unmerged for editing. (You just do the merge as part of the Save process.)

Yup. And the 4th option is that all textures are all merged all the time and game are just one big merged texture. That must be what they did for SHIFT with 16 cars on the 360

Correct. I just know you're wrong.

My turn. I just know you're wrong

Speculating, yes, but not like all of you.

Of course.

If PD were using the same damage model as T10, you might have a leg to stand on, but they're not, so you don't. No one is criticizing T10 for having "a showroom." The point is, they're now using exactly the same showroom as PD. PD aren't using exactly the same damage model as T10; they're using a far superior one.

Just keep telling yourself that. Thanks for the detailed reply. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[serversurfer]

Whatever suits your agenda 👍

I'm just explaining to you how it actually works. If you're not interested in learning, and instead wish to continue parroting fanboy claptrap uncontested, it seems you're the one with the "agenda."

Nice attempt at an ad hom though. 👍

Yup. And the 4th option is that all textures are all merged all the time and game are just one big merged texture. That must be what they did for SHIFT with 16 cars on the 360

You really don't understand how this stuff works, do you?

My turn. I just know you're wrong

Sure, I'll play. What have I said that was wrong?

Just keep telling yourself that. Thanks for the detailed reply. We will have to agree to disagree.

Ah, so it's your "opinion" that PD copied T10, while T10 are just utilizing common and obvious solutions. Well, I can't argue with "logic" like that.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I'm just explaining to you how it actually works. If you're not interested in learning, and instead wish to continue parroting fanboy claptrap uncontested, it seems you're the one with the "agenda."

That's the thing. It's actually getting explained to you. I do enjoy your hypothesis though. I don't discredit you for it. You just need to have a bit more background.

👍

Ah, so it's your "opinion"

Yup, that is what we have offered in this thread so far. Your cute little rebuttals are fun though.

 

[Tenacious D]

That is damage, right? FM1, FM2, FM3 all have damage. GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4 don't have damage, and now PD is adding damage. Nope, they didn't copy them . But if Turn 10 changed their UI to show the cars similar to PD, then it's a copy job. Nice. (snip)
Look, I know you like to get your panties all in a bunch over a single game. But face the facts GT copies, as does PD.

Then perhaps you'll tell me what game Gran Turismo copied from. Damage? Last I heard, damage exists in real life, or maybe you think T10 invented damage modeling? Last I also heard, GT5 is the first Gran Turismo on hardware 40 or 50 times more powerful than the PS2. Now, I don't believe you can say that about the 360 vs XBox, and even though the 360 is undeniably more powerful than the XB, the jump from F1 to 2 wasn't all that great, and even with a supposedly new game engine and all new car and track models, F2 is surprisingly like F3 in just about every way.

Graphically, F3 has more textures and some flowers which F2 lacked, and car shadows aren't pitch black. Perhaps instead of using glib, disposable answers, you can tell me what exactly is so markedly improved over F2, because those three things don't equal "definitive" improvements or "work of art" graphics. At least to me. So school me on all these improvements. I can learn.

And by the way, maybe you skimmed, but I did mention that I played the F3 demo. If it's markedly different from the release game, please list the differences for me.

 

[QuantumReaction]

To all the people who say T10 does not copy PD





Im just gonna leave this here...

 

[Bogie 19th]

Then perhaps you'll tell me what game Gran Turismo copied from. Damage? Last I heard, damage exists in real life, or maybe you think T10 invented damage modeling?

You win. PD has never copied anyone including Turn 10. I am not going to argue with you. I was wrong. I can't believe I made such a mistake.

F2 is surprisingly like F3 in just about every way.

And many don't agree with you. Can you accept that?

Perhaps instead of using glib, disposable answers, you can tell me what exactly is so markedly improved over F2, because those three things don't equal "definitive" improvements or "work of art" graphics. At least to me. So school me on all these improvements. I can learn.

Actually, no you can't learn to see the improvements. You have made your decision, even when others don't agree. Just because you can't see the marked graphical, physics, car model, track and campaign improvements doesn't mean they don't exist for others. Nobody is going to change your mind. How could they?

And by the way, maybe you skimmed, but I did mention that I played the F3 demo. If it's markedly different from the release game, please list the differences for me.

No, I know you supposedly played the demo. I was being sarcastic. My point was, it's quite obvious just by playing the demo that the improvements are substantial, even with Turn 10 tuning the cars in the demo for casual gamers. If it's not obvious to you, well that is too bad. That doesn't mean your opinion means any less or more.

 

[serversurfer]

That's the thing. It's actually getting explained to you.

What the hell are you talking about?? You posted misleading information about the systems' memory architecture, I corrected it, and then you posted an ad hominem attack instead of actually responding to what I posted.

Your cute little rebuttals are fun though.

At least I have rebuttals.

And speaking of a lack of rebuttals, is it safe to assume your lack of response to my asking you to back up your claim I'm wrong means you can't back it up at all, and in fact are talking out of your ass and are simply attacking my credibility in a lame attempt to distract from your general lack of knowledge on the subject? 👎

 

[Bogie 19th]

What the hell are you talking about?? You posted misleading information about the systems' memory architecture, I corrected it, and then you posted an ad hominem attack instead of actually responding to what I posted.

You really won't get far with these types of responses. It is actually "me" that is correcting YOUR misleading information on the systems' memory. I am sorry you are have such difficulties digesting that. Maybe you just don't have enough experience in the industry? I am not sure. But when you start spewing out inaccuracies, they do need to be corrected.

At least I have rebuttals.

Good one

And speaking of a lack of rebuttals, is it safe to assume your lack of response to my asking you to back up your claim I'm wrong means you can't back it up at all, and in fact are talking out of your ass and are simply attacking my credibility in a lame attempt to distract from your general lack of knowledge on the subject? 👎

So just because you lose an argument, you resort to name calling or attacks? I thought that was against the AUP? 👎

I would recommend stepping away from the keyboard if this topic is something you are not comfortable with. Your agenda and continued derailment of threads is quite clear. I can no longer participate in your activities and entertainment. Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[Scaff]

And this gets locked to allow a cooling off period.

Scaff