T500 or G27, with rig?

[Dean]

I've ordered a T500RS from Amazon (haven't received it yet), but I'm currently thinking about returning it (when it arrives), get the refund, and spend the money on a Gameracer Pro + G27 combo pack instead (Local dealer is ~15 km away 👍). Now, I'm a bit in doubt over the quality, of the T500RS, and especially if the firmware update will break my old Compaq Mini (10.1") laptop running Win. XP, - actually just if I've made an error ordering the T500. Also if it'll be worth it's value (€376), as I'm currently not being able to play that much GT5... and I'm not sure if I'll ever get to play enough to make it worth it's value.

I know the T500 should be superior, compared to the G27... Though, as I haven't tried either, so I can't really tell if this is true. So I guess I need some help deciding, what I should do... Thanks in advance.

Edit:I forgot to mention that I'll only be using it for GT5.

 

[LogiForce]

The T500 is easily far better than the T500. You don't have to doubt this.
Also you won't break a laptop because of a firmware update. Don't worry.
What you want to do with it is up to you though. It's your money at the end of the day and not mine, but keep in mind that the G27 has a FFB deadzone of 10-15 degrees in the center (the T500 doesn't have a deadzone) which might annoy you with a lack of feel.

 

[pilmat]

The T500 is easily far better than the T500. You don't have to doubt this.
Also you won't break a laptop because of a firmware update. Don't worry.
What you want to do with it is up to you though. It's your money at the end of the day and not mine, but keep in mind that the G27 has a FFB deadzone of 10-15 degrees in the center (the T500 doesn't have a deadzone) which might annoy you with a lack of feel.

Lets not exaggerate the dead zone, it's not 10-15 each way, it MIGHT be a total of 10 degrees. And the T500 feel is not as good as the G27 around that +- 15 degree zone, in my opinion. The FFB gradient is too mild in that zone.

Is the T500 2x as good as the G27? Not in my opinion, and the pedals are not as good, and the paddles don't follow the wheel...

But it is a very good wheel with a very good oversteer algorithm But I don't think you will be disappointed either way!

As for a rig, It is an important piece of the sim experience, get something comfortable and stiff (especially for the T500 as the wheel is quite heavy).

 

[kikie]

Decisions, decision, decisions.

I was pretty sure that I was going to get the T500RS but after reading a few comments of a certain member (whose comments I really value) whom made a hydraulic G27 brake pedal and created a thread about his progress, I started to doubt.

Spoiler

pilmat ofcourse

Reading this thread, the doubt is evern worse. The problem is that I use to have a G27 which I sold in 2011. Getting a new G27 is actually a stupid thing to do after selling a G27. But I'm only human and humans make stupid decisions.

I'm one of those that don't like strong FFB. Maybe it's due to the annoying (personal opinion) FFB made by the G27, I don't know. But what I do know is that whatever wheel I get (if I get one), I'll definitely turn down the FFB a lot.

The G27 has always felt very unrealistic when controlling a car ingame. I don't know if the actual wheel is to blame or is it the game itself.
I mentioned this a couple of times in the distant past here on GTP and I'm going to mention it again because it is relevant to what I said about unrealistic control of a car ingame.

I have 10 years of real life car control experience. Defensive and offensive and I believe/I think I know how a car should behave in real life. I have yet to find a wheel or game that realistically simulates realistic car behavior.
The G27 was always a disapointment in that area (or do I have to blame the game). Maybe the T500 is better than the G27?

Maybe this will help you to decide what to do.


I also forgot mrbasher's advice which I also really appreciate. Compliments where compliments are due.

 

[guybo]

For rFactor 2, the T500Rs is the only choice. The FFB is amazing. With the G27, I have heard many many many complaints about the FFB.

IMHO, the paddles not following the wheel is an advantage of the T500. I never liked that feature with the G25 and when I got the T500, as soon as I learned to use the stationary paddles I realized how much better it really is.

That deadzone was a terrible on the G25. If the G27 has any deadzone in the FFB at all, avoid it. It's a deal breaker.

The G27 has the h-shifter and it is the best bang-for-the-buck by far. You can buy a better h-shifter for the T500 (I have a Lightning SST) but that adds expense to an already expensive wheel.

I have had G25 pedals, CSP and now I use the T500 pedals. The CSP pedals are of such low quality (mine were anyway) they were terrible. The T500 pedals are excellent. There is not as much throw as with the CSP, but the brake stiffness (with the included stiffness mod) is perfect and my braking performance is every bit as good now as it was with that load cell. The G25 pedals were squishy, not stiff and had little feel at all even with a pedal stiffness mod. I have read that the G27 pedals are better than the G25 pedals, but not by much.

The firmware update will not affect your laptop in any way whatsoever.

Keep the T500.

 

[ussr]

Sell T500RS and buy G27 is less money for exactly the same wheel. T500RS is way overpriced and exaggerated. That's why you have second thoughts, do you really need to spend so much money while you can have fantastic wheel with gearbox shifter and pedals. It's whole package.

Great deal for great wheel, you won't regret it. But with T500RS you will have always second thoughts. Especially if you want to race in GT5 only. Then it's just madness to buy T500RS.

 

[kikie]

I have had the G25 and the G27 and the pedals are exactly the same. The only difference between the G25 and the G27 is the lack of sequential shifter, more buttons on the wheel and a little smoother due to the helical gears (for the G27).

 

[Mahnegold]

I have doubts, that every statement here is backed up with personal experience...

Anyway, I have them both and T500 is by far superior to the G27! But no negative words about the G27 from me, as it just isn't meant to be a T500 competitor. You just can't compare them.

 

[pilmat]

I have doubts, that every statement here is backed up with personal experience...

This is my personal experience on the subject The photo is 5 minutes old...

Personal Experience
​

The T500 rig has the pedals replaced with G27 with a GTEye spring in the brakes (The T500 pedals are on the floor in front of the rig). This was a kind of "best" solution we played with yesterday, of course the hydraulic brake is another step up, but I melted the base plate... (plus it is not in the same price bracket).

I'm not looking for a fight here. I just can't see the T500 being 2x the benefit (it's 2x the price), but it IS a superior wheel to the G27!

 

[Mahnegold]

No fight intended by me as well. And that you have a lot of "toys" is well known here, Pilmat. So my comment wasn't really addressed to you ;-)

 

[oqvist]

What is your criterias for a good wheel Dean? Can be hard to spot without trying a few perhaps. But yes the T500RS wheel AND pedals is for me at least one league if not two ahead of my G27. The G27 has a deadzone and perhaps the T500RS ffb is reduced a bit here but in the G27 you can feel the two ffb motors fighting eachother still and you get oscillations which is not true ffb. Whereas the T500RS is calm and you can take a coffee brake in some sims knowing the car will keep it´s course. I can imagine some like this as it make things feel a bit more lively but I have never felt anything like that driving real cars.

T500RS ffb feels so much more rigid, solid. It´s considerably faster and can replicate for example cerbs and engine revving more accurately as a result. The latter I generally do without as it masks other ffb and would been better off with separate rumble engines I imagine but it´s a nice benchmark test.

G27 is helped being a mainstream wheel most games are really thoroughly tested on it and you get decent ffb settings by default but in no sim I tried it gets close.

ISI did a nice thing with rFactor 2 in that they just try to create the best ffb available if it destroys the G27 they couldn´t care less. They will probably dull it down to launch. You can adjust it a bit in the .plr file but with worse fidelity as a result.

T500 pedals I may be alone with this but I really like them. I have the G27 pedals with nixim brake mod and comparing them to my T500RS pedal set with Mr Bashers stiff brake mod (2 Khiro 73 bushings) I don´t lie when I say I preferr this brake over my CSP V2s. I don´t say it´s better but certainly equal in performance and a bit better in feel. But this is quite subjective neither feels like any brake I used IRL. Throttle feels great to particularly in overhang position as that is what I am used to I believe and it just appear more ergonomic then the F1 position I tried on various pedal sets.
Again subjective

However the problem here is having a cockpit do a LOT for immersion and generally comfort too. That is if you have a cockpit that is solid enough and adjustable so you can get the driving position just perfect.

So dunno. If you get a cockpit get one that can hold better performing wheels then the G27? As the T500RS capabalities are higher it also mean you would get more out of it on a cockpit versus desktop setup then the easier going G27.

 

[LogiForce]

Lets not exaggerate the dead zone, it's not 10-15 each way, it MIGHT be a total of 10 degrees. And the T500 feel is not as good as the G27 around that +- 15 degree zone, in my opinion. The FFB gradient is too mild in that zone.

Is the T500 2x as good as the G27? Not in my opinion, and the pedals are not as good, and the paddles don't follow the wheel...

But it is a very good wheel with a very good oversteer algorithm But I don't think you will be disappointed either way!

As for a rig, It is an important piece of the sim experience, get something comfortable and stiff (especially for the T500 as the wheel is quite heavy).

Where in the world did I say "each way"?! I said "in the center".
I agree on the pedals, but disagree on the deadzone. The T500 is faster and more powerful, plus I like the rim size better than the tiny one of the G27.

Oh well, to each his/her own I guess.

 

[Dean]

So, the verdict is that I should return it, and get the G27? I might get the WSP, instead of the Gameracer, but that's not the important part, right now. I forgot mention (before the edit), that I'm only planning on using the wheel with GT5, (maybe F1 games, but primarily GT5) - does that back up the G27?

Edit: I'd like strong FFB, I think. My DFGT lacks of it, so that's my reason for upgrading.

Edit 2: Off topic, but the T500 has been shipped from "Crymlyn Burrows Swansea UK" (odd, as I ordered it from Amazon France...)

 

[pilmat]

Where in the world did I say "each way"?! I said "in the center".
I agree on the pedals, but disagree on the deadzone. The T500 is faster and more powerful, plus I like the rim size better than the tiny one of the G27.

Oh well, to each his/her own I guess.

You didn't I was just being specific as I have read "horror" stories of the dead-zone, which are generally exaggerated.

+1 on the rim size of the T500. I'm not crazy about the rubber on the wheel, but I have had 2 people comment positively about it.

Your comment on the T500 being "faster" is interesting. Do you mean you can turn it faster, do faster lap times or that it reacts faster? I like qualitative feedback as much as quantitative in that it is a big part of the immersion aspect. I personally didn't note anything faster, but I'll put it on my checklist of evaluation criteria

 

[mrbasher]

Dean, it is unlikely you will be disappointed with the T500. If you have always used pot based brakes, the brake will be no change for you probably. Though I would suggest modifying it in some way so it's stiffer.

You probably won't be disappointed with he G27 either... Either way you might regret the purchase... You might wish you'd purchased a T500 if you purchased a G27.

The problem is that you really do need SOME kind of rig to mount your stuff to no matter what wheel you get. It's just so much better, there's no comparison between having it on a desk or something and a proper rig whether built or otherwise.

As for a verdict... Only you can proclaim a verdict here I see your dilemma and why you posted here. Best of luck to you.

 

[LogiForce]

You didn't I was just being specific as I have read "horror" stories of the dead-zone, which are generally exaggerated.

+1 on the rim size of the T500. I'm not crazy about the rubber on the wheel, but I have had 2 people comment positively about it.

Your comment on the T500 being "faster" is interesting. Do you mean you can turn it faster, do faster lap times or that it reacts faster? I like qualitative feedback as much as quantitative in that it is a big part of the immersion aspect. I personally didn't note anything faster, but I'll put it on my checklist of evaluation criteria

Ah, okay. Yeah, sometime folk can exaggerate. lol

I am not a fan of the rubber either. That't the only big turndown for me. The leather is indeed better on the G27 (personally have a G25 tough).

I mean faster as in the speed that the DC motor can turn around the wheel. Which is better if you like to drift for example, but also if the car needs to correct itself.
What I mean by correcting itself is the recovery after a spin. The reason...
The FFB centering force send by the game drives the motor, which drives the position sensors who send the wheel position back to the game. That wheel position determines the position of the tyres of our virtual car. So we can deduct that the speed of the FFB motor determines how fast our cars will straighten out in the game.

As per faster lap times. The G27 can initially seem faster as you have to move your arms less and less quickly. This is because the diameter of the rim determines how far your arm must travel. That said, the G27 rim diameter can be bad as well as you have less travel you are also able to less precisely position the wheel as a corner needs. Which can mean it is harder to aim for that route you like to take through a corner.
This can also mean that using the G27 is less relaxed as you are too concentrated on the wheel position, thus you start to more firmly (cramped) grip the wheel to try and keep that exact position as half a millimeter movement is easier made than with the T500 rim.

Reaction times of the G27 and T500 are the same. Both have motor mounted sensors which are polled at a frequency of 500Hz.

 

[Dean]

You probably won't be disappointed with the G27 either... Either way you might regret the purchase... You might wish you'd purchased a T500 if you purchased a G27.

The problem is that you really do need SOME kind of rig to mount your stuff to no matter what wheel you get. Best of luck to you.

That's the thing! I'm afraid of wanting the T500RS if I get the G27... And thereby spending a lot more.

As for the rig, I'm currently using an ironing board, but I guess that won't be able to handle either of the wheels, so I'm upgrading there no matter what 👍.

 

[LogiForce]

That's the thing! I'm afraid of wanting the T500RS if I get the G27... And thereby spending a lot more.

As for the rig, I'm currently using an ironing board, but I guess that won't be able to handle either of the wheels, so I'm upgrading there no matter what 👍.

You might want to look at a Boding Load cell for the T500 pedals for 150 dollars, or maybe first get some bushes from Basher's site for 10 dollars I believe as a start to make the brake stiffer without the scratching spring.


In any case, I would say stick to the T500 and mod the pedals plus get or make a nice rig.

 

[mrbasher]

Dean,

What is the cost of the T500RS for you?

It's hard for people in the US to give advice on it because here you can find it as cheap as $400... That in my opinion is a respectable price for what you get. $540, which is the current price at many places in the US, is pretty steep. That said, it's still not bad considering the alternatives.

You may be left wanting, you may not. The only thing that doesn't excite me personally about the G27 is the sound and feel of the gears and the clackity clack sound over bumps, etc.

If you can afford it, the T500 is probably a better choice when thinking long term. That's what my gut tells me. I purchased one when they were on sale here and I really do enjoy using it. That was changing from a PWTS (Fanatec wheel)

I don't envy your situation. What you need to make up your mind about is not which wheel to get, but to be happy with whichever you choose.

Edit: Dean, I feel bad for ya... I'll give you a set of the bushings and plate if you keep the T500RS. Just let me know, they'll change the way you brake forever. You just need to pay the shipping which, now that USPS rates went up, is $6.50 I think.

 

[Dean]

I gave €375 for the T500RS. I'm not sure about what that is in US dollars... And thanks for the very good offer, of your modification ! The expected date of delivery is February 4th, so there's still 7 days, plus 7 days to decide...

 

[oqvist]

As for ffb speed the T500 turn faster. I have a 320 mm rim which is really bulky so that you sometimes actually can let go and let it self center make it easier to operate even though I am no drifter. I could never do this with my G27. Still in an ideal world it would be faster more like the Leo Bodnar wheel.

There is one area the G27 is really fast. It´s changing directions where it´s faster then fanatecs dual ffb solutions also. So if there wasn´t so much play and it so easilly get into clipping territory it should be able to do rumble strips quite well I recon.

As for the wheel rim bigger rims give more leverage and in theory higher precision. But at least for my 320 mm rim it´s a lot of rim to handle and thus with a smaller rim you can compensate by using more radius. Trying to do rally with the 320 mm rim with more then 310 degrees you need four arms and due to the bulk I often get an uncertainty about how much steering input I give.

I am not sure about 270 or 300 mm my next rim will probably be a rally 285 . I have the F1 rim also and that is a dream to operate for just about all tarmac racers. Feel a bit out of place with rally and vintage cars though but I would say for me it´s a better allrounder then the 320 mm rim. The leverage the 320 mm rim gives you is very useful for real cars but in simracing where we can adjust torque and often wish for more it´s not always ideal.

However I am really never running the T500RS at 100 % ffb strength on either rim. I am not that hardcore I am looking at 100 % realistic torque

 

[mrbasher]

I gave €375 for the T500RS. I'm not sure about what that is in US dollars... And thanks for the very good offer, of your modification ! The expected date of delivery is February 4th, so there's still 7 days, plus 7 days to decide...

I'll send you the bushings tomorrow. Hopefully they get there in time and you can make a more informed decision before you get rid of the T500. The stock brake is not that great in my opinion.

If you don't keep the T500RS, find someone else to send the bushings and plate too that need them.

Send me a PM with your shipping info.

 

[kikie]

I have doubts, that every statement here is backed up with personal experience...

Anyway, I have them both and T500 is by far superior to the G27! But no negative words about the G27 from me, as it just isn't meant to be a T500 competitor. You just can't compare them.

Dear sir, are you calling me a liar ?

Oh look, I was telling the truth:

 

[Mahnegold]

Dear sir, are you calling me a liar ?

Oh look, I was telling the truth:

What gave you the impression, that I was referring to you?

 

[kikie]

What gave you the impression, that I was referring to you?

I have doubts, that every statement here is backed up with personal experience...

That includes my statements!

 

[JogoAsobi]

Dear sir, are you calling me a liar ?

Oh look, I was telling the truth:

That includes my statements!

LOL dude, no offense, but pictures don't mean a whole lot unless maybe they are geo-tagged along with a scan of your mug on an official document of some kind. Don't worry not suggesting you lift the veil of the www and go there.

Does seem to me like you are trying to incite something though...

 

[wajdi1977]

I was very disappointed with the G27 ffb in GT5 but after switching to rF2 I'm very very satisfied and the ffb is great! I have updated the brake pedals with a load-cell, and soon I will upgrade it with the PERFECT PEDALS!
Few months ago I had the intention to switch to the t500rs, but it costs 620euro here in Israel, then I thought that I wont spend all this money for a steering wheel that is slightly better than the G27!

 

[kikie]

.

 

[kikie]

Lol dude, no offense, but pictures don't mean a whole lot unless maybe they are geo-tagged along with a scan of your mug on an official document of some kind. Don't worry not suggesting you lift the veil of the www and go there.

Does seem to me like you are trying to incite something though...

Lol dude back; I was just joking.

 

[Mahnegold]

That includes my statements!

If there is something ironic in there, than I am not able to notice it today. Normally I am a ironic guy myself.

Anyway, I think I worded it in a correct way. I have no doubts, that a lot (or even most) of the comments are backed up by personal experience. But I have doubts that this counts for every comment. Thats what I wanted to say and thats what I actually said.