T500RS Wheel Poll - Vote Needed

[mrbasher]

Close... Read the question again.

As for the switches. They are 10 million cycle switches that require what seems to be the same force as the stock ones.

 

[Jadran]

I am saying 100 PBC

 

[mrbasher]

Let's make this fair. I will announce the winner tomorrow at 3PM PST.

 

[JohnBodin]

Close... Read the question again.

As for the switches. They are 10 million cycle switches that require what seems to be the same force as the stock ones.

 

[mrbasher]

Ok I was incorrect, in a way... They do NOT require the same force as the stock ones. Bonehead statement on my part. Maybe because I was "clicking" a switch that wasn't from my wheel.

Regardless... I have another question for you all.

Do you want the loud "click" or do you not want the "click" It will make a difference on the life of the switch, there is no getting around it. My best estimates at this point are:

Ultra high life (3 million to 10 million cycles) = basically silent "clicking"
High life (1 million cycles) = very audible "click"

There is not really an in-between on that. So, something to think about. Comments are very welcome. The goal with this was to keep people from having to replace the darn things at all. Not to make them sound any different or feel any different.

 

[LogiForce]

Ok I was incorrect, in a way... They do NOT require the same force as the stock ones. Bonehead statement on my part. Maybe because I was "clicking" a switch that wasn't from my wheel.

Regardless... I have another question for you all.

Do you want the loud "click" or do you not want the "click" It will make a difference on the life of the switch, there is no getting around it. My best estimates at this point are:

Ultra high life (3 million to 10 million cycles) = basically silent "clicking"
High life (1 million cycles) = very audible "click"

There is not really an in-between on that. So, something to think about. Comments are very welcome. The goal with this was to keep people from having to replace the darn things at all. Not to make them sound any different or feel any different.

Mind making a short video where you click both, Jon? That is if you have both at hand.
I think if people hear the difference they might know more about which they prefer.

Though seeing your last comment, why bother giving us a choice if it wasn't the goal you had in mind anyway? I'd say go for equal feel and noises with longer life if possible, if that is what you were after.

Did you find out anything about the lifecycle of the original switches, so what their specs say?

 

[mrbasher]

I was thinking of doing a video actually. The 1 million cycle minimum switches have a definitively audible click sound, though slightly different than the original. It's more of a "solid" sound? I will put both in side by side for comparison.

The 10 million minimum cycle switches are essentially inaudible. While playing you'd certainly not hear it. You can only hear them when not playing and actually trying to hear it. Some people actually prefer this apparently... Which is why I mentioned it here. As well, you cannot feel them click. They engage quickly upon pulling the paddles.

I used the lighter, stealthier ones this evening for quite awhile when testing and they worked really well. I liked the immediate nature of the switch as opposed to the original which engaged a bit later due to the added force necessary to activate it.

As for the originals... I don't have the model of them as they aren't marked, at least not that I can see. However, I did compare them this evening to the 1 million cycle switches. The 1 million cycle switches required right around 20 grams less force, depending on the original switch I tested. (I tested a few) I believe the switches I purchased are a direct replacement, though higher quality. They are sealed, dust proof, etc.

The switches that were chosen are made my Omron and are about as good as it gets for something like this. After doing some research it looks as though as a general rule, switches that require the same force as the originals and the 1 million cycle Omron switches, only have a minimum of 50k to 100k cycles. Given how often the switches seem to go and how quickly, I have to assume it's closer to 50K for the stock ones. Kind of sad really.

In "closing" I personally think the 1 million cycle switches would last as long as someone felt like using them. I'm inclined to go with them instead of the higher 3 million or 10 million only because they behave almost identically to the stock switches. However, it's not just up to me. I asked here and I'm speaking with John about it as well.

Edit: Just to add... I have to wonder if part of the issue with the original switches is the force being placed on the switch. The spring that is pressing on the switch is really quite strong. If the original switches are not very high quality to begin with, this could degrade them even quicker. That is purely an assumption on my part. However, it could easily play a role in their rapid deterioration.

 

[Racingworld68]

I would be ok with this :

Ultra high life (3 million to 10 million cycles) = basically silent "clicking"


And I think you have a 150 pcb sets there.

 

[Dean]

Well, since everyone's guessing, I'll go for 187 of those... things .

 

[oqvist]

250 pcbs.

I definiatly want the silent ones because I need my racing setup to be as stealthy as possible. Depend a bit if the switching get mushy at the same time? Is it possible to get the same resistance on both paddles?

As for me I have the f1 rim and a RMD Malaga 320 mm rim with a SRW F1 as button box onboard. I can highly recommend that because it give you rev lights and as many buttons as the F1 integral if not more. The con is of course the usb cable you must have attached but it´s okay and just a minor nuisance if you have it wired around the base.

Not a bad wheel for about 100£ including the SRW F1 plus the adapter from DSD which is a bit expensive but

I am using the stock shifters as well as the F1 ones so I guess I could vote both anyway.

 

[LogiForce]

I was thinking of doing a video actually. The 1 million cycle minimum switches have a definitively audible click sound, though slightly different than the original. It's more of a "solid" sound? I will put both in side by side for comparison.

The 10 million minimum cycle switches are essentially inaudible. While playing you'd certainly not hear it. You can only hear them when not playing and actually trying to hear it. Some people actually prefer this apparently... Which is why I mentioned it here. As well, you cannot feel them click. They engage quickly upon pulling the paddles.

I used the lighter, stealthier ones this evening for quite awhile when testing and they worked really well. I liked the immediate nature of the switch as opposed to the original which engaged a bit later due to the added force necessary to activate it.

As for the originals... I don't have the model of them as they aren't marked, at least not that I can see. However, I did compare them this evening to the 1 million cycle switches. The 1 million cycle switches required right around 20 grams less force, depending on the original switch I tested. (I tested a few) I believe the switches I purchased are a direct replacement, though higher quality. They are sealed, dust proof, etc.

The switches that were chosen are made my Omron and are about as good as it gets for something like this. After doing some research it looks as though as a general rule, switches that require the same force as the originals and the 1 million cycle Omron switches, only have a minimum of 50k to 100k cycles. Given how often the switches seem to go and how quickly, I have to assume it's closer to 50K for the stock ones. Kind of sad really.

In "closing" I personally think the 1 million cycle switches would last as long as someone felt like using them. I'm inclined to go with them instead of the higher 3 million or 10 million only because they behave almost identically to the stock switches. However, it's not just up to me. I asked here and I'm speaking with John about it as well.

Edit: Just to add... I have to wonder if part of the issue with the original switches is the force being placed on the switch. The spring that is pressing on the switch is really quite strong. If the original switches are not very high quality to begin with, this could degrade them even quicker. That is purely an assumption on my part. However, it could easily play a role in their rapid deterioration.

From what you explain and my experience with the beta microswitches (more silent) versus the retail ones (more audible) in my CSW, I personally like to go with the audible ones.
The reason for this is that with silent switches you would really have to hear the gear noise from the game or watch your (virtual) displays for the gear change. Silent switches don't give any tactile feedback either.
With audible switches you hear it click, but you also feel a slight vibration of the switch clicking/engaging. So even when wearing a headset or whatever, you still physically know you engaged the switch.

So that's why I would go with audible switches.

 

[oqvist]

The problem is your neighbours also hear the super loud switches

 

[Gunstar]

The problem is your neighbours also hear the super loud switches

They better get the heck out of my house then!!

 

[mrbasher]

Gunstar,

So you would like the higher force ones? Just trying to keep this straight.

As I figured, this is probably going to be a 50/50 split... Which is unfortunate.

I should point out however that, as I stated before, the switches activate easily enough that if you pull on a paddle, it's going to shift. Every time. So whether you hear/feel a click or not, it's going to shift. However, I do understand that some prefer a tactile response...

The rub here is that I would really rather not order two types of switches. I already have to order two types of cables since they differ between the F1 and Base switches. I don't want to end up with a bunch of parts nobody will use. Maybe I need to build something else that uses switches lol

 

[mrbasher]

Just thought I'd add this... I was doing some research on how many shifts happen in typical races and came across the following: http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/6/12197.html It states in one portion

Q: What are the toughest races for the gearbox?
A: The toughest races for the gearbox are Monaco, Singapore and Abu Dhabi where the drivers shift gear every 61m, 71m and 82m respectively. The main factors that make a race demanding are torque levels and the number of gear shifts; Monaco and Singapore see the drivers shift gear over 4,000 times per race.

It also states that the season average is about 3100 gear changes per race. Now, we can halve this, I think, in order to look at the actuation of one switch (since down and up are different switches). So 1,550 gear changes on average. If we assume people are racing full length F1 races, which I have no idea about, we may be able to draw some theories about just how much "clicking" is going on, generally speaking.

At 1,550 gear changes per race, the 1 million cycle min. switches should last 645 full length races before one failed. That would seem like enough to me... Even if you halve that so it includes hotlapping people may do in practice, that's over 300 races.

Thoughts?

 

[fatkrakr]

Might be worth checking what kind of switches logitech is using in the G series wheels. Some of the g25 wheels have been around for years and still switching strong. Not sure how many clicks that is, but my guess is in the millions for some.

 

[mrbasher]

Good point fatkrakr.

They are actually microswitches, the kind with the "lever"

I can only guess at this point but I think they probably last so long because they are being pressed in an "ideal" manner. No pressure is placed directly on the actuator.

In constrast, I've started to see posts recently about the ones in the DFGT failing. In fact I just replaced ALL of the switches in someone's DFGT here recently with new Omron switches. (The originals MIGHT be Omron, they look quite similar and are of nice quality) Anyhow, my point here is that they are being pressed directly on the actuator without much padding in-between to absorb any extra force.

I really think what's going on here is that the original switches in the Thrustmaster wheels are being pressed on "too hard" given the quality of the switch.

 

[mrbasher]

I don't mean to post after my own post, sorry. However, just an update...

John and I discussed this and we are going to offer both the "stealth" switches and standard "clicky" switches. They details are as follows:

"Stealth" switches are also the long life ones with a minimum cycle rating of 10 million cycles. These should essentially last you for the life of the wheel.

"Standard" switches are longer than stock life with a minimum cycle rating of 1 million cycles. These feel and sound very similar to the stock switches but have a much higher rating based upon some conversation between a "high mileage" user and I. This user is at what I would deem the upper end of the spectrum for usage. Even so, these switches should last him a minimum of 1 year based on his usage estimates.

So, there ya go, problem solved. For now.

Now, get back to guessing. Nobody has properly guessed the correct answer yet...

 

[Rapid46]

i'm guessing 300 sets

 

[oqvist]

Can we make second guesses

 

[mrbasher]

So the question was...

The person that can guess how many sets of boards are in that picture first and/or closest, wins a free set of their choosing: Either the F1 rim or base switches.

Notice the bold portion... There are 100 sets of switches.

Logiforce actually guessed the number of PCB's correctly at 200, but not the number of sets of which a set contains two PCB's.

Therefore Racingworld68 is the winner as he guessed closest at 150 sets. HOWEVER, because I realize not everyone understood that a set consisted of 2 boards and because I am a super nice guy... I'm giving Racingworld68 an F1 set and a base set, and the rest of you that took the time to guess will get a set of your choosing for free, as runners up.

PM me your address and which type you'd like ie. F1 or base, and "clicky" or "stealth" I will send them when they are ready.

Thanks for playing!

 

[Racingworld68]

Awsome, I will PM you right away. Thanks !!

 

[Dean]

Congratulations Frank .

And, regarding the line in your signature - Don't worry, I'm slower than you (also in the back of the field) so you're not the slowest guy .