The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

[Seismica]

Dropping Sutil for Hulkenberg was a mistake. Sutil is a proven quantity. The only thing Nico Hulkenberg has demonstrated is the ability to finish the race in a lower position than he started.

Whilst you're right about Sutil, I think your assessment of Hulkenberg is a bit harsh, he only was able to demonstrate that ability because he and the car were both stronger in qualifying than they were in the race (And not just in Brazil). It's the opposite of what last years Mclaren was like, relatively weak in qualifying but mighty in the race.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

As I've said countless times in the past - qualifying isn't as important as the race, and Hulkenberg is a weak racer. I think he's one of the msot over-rated drivers in recent years, even moreso than Bruno Senna. Who cares if you can qualify on pole if you can't finish in the points? (Yes, I'm aware Hulkenberg scored four points in Brazil 2010; I was just using this as an example.)

 

[Hun200kmh]

Uh I think there's more promise in a young driver that shows raw speed and some lack of racecraft, then there is in a not as fast guy that is a good racer.

Key word is "young" driver. Experience can bring you racecraft, but it will make you only slightly faster.

I love this bit about a World Champion's career beggining (Jody Scheckter):

In France, he almost won in his third start in F1 before crashing into Emerson Fittipaldi, the reigning World Champion, who said after the crash about Scheckter: "This madman is a menace to himself and everybody else and does not belong in Formula 1." [2] In his next start, the British Grand Prix at Silverstone, Scheckter was involved in a big accident which took nearly a dozen cars out of the race. The Grand Prix Drivers Association demanded his immediate banishment, which was only put off when McLaren agreed to rest their driver for four races.

 

[Brend]

I think FI had to keep Di Resta...he's a good one to have for the future, hungry driver et al.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

In the modern era of Formula 1, you have to hit the ground running. Mistakes can only be tolerated for so long - but Nico Hulkenberg used up all of his rookie errors early in the season. He's a weak racer, and one of the worst drivers off the line; all throughout the 2010 season, he was one of the last (if not the last) to react to the lights going out.

 

[MatskiMonk]

In the modern era of Formula 1, you have to hit the ground running. Mistakes can only be tolerated for so long - but Nico Hulkenberg used up all of his rookie errors early in the season. He's a weak racer, and one of the worst drivers off the line; all throughout the 2010 season, he was one of the last (if not the last) to react to the lights going out.

Worse has lasted longer in F1 than Hulkenberg.. and lets be honest, you have to hit the ground running or have sponsors with nice big chequebook.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Hulkenberg doesn't have either. Perhaps the only reason why he can get a drive with Force India is because Force India is funded very differently to every other team.

 

[Pupik]

[QUOTE="Peter.]For them to be promoted, Red Bull would want what Vettel did with the car in 2008. A pole and a win. But that will probably never happen, because that pole and win was a fluke to begin with.

...

That is also not helped by the fact that Torro Rosso is nothing more than a Driving Academy for Red Bull now.[/QUOTE]

Now you're making whine from sour grapes. You act as if Vettel has been a complete disappointment since promotion.

Ligier was pretty much allowed to be a full-fledged team (if not better-performing) when Benetton essentially owned them from 1995-96. Toro Rosso has performed admirably compared the "little team that (sort of) could" that was Minardi.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Toro Rosso has performed admirably compared the "little team that (sort of) could" that was Minardi.

At least Minardi were allowed to compete - even if their competitiveness was only theoretical. Toro Rosso is a glorified GP2 team. As soon as any of their drivers start showing potential, they get snapped up by Red Bull. They simply cannot be competitive, because as soon as they become competitive, the Red Bull raiding party shows up.

 

[Peter.]

As I've said countless times in the past - qualifying isn't as important as the race, and Hulkenberg is a weak racer. I think he's one of the msot over-rated drivers in recent years, even moreso than Bruno Senna. Who cares if you can qualify on pole if you can't finish in the points? (Yes, I'm aware Hulkenberg scored four points in Brazil 2010; I was just using this as an example.)

Opinions, opinions.

He wasn't doing so well initially, but later on, as the season progressed, he started to equal and sometimes even better the already proven Rubens Barrichello. Even if you don't take his pole into account, he was a quantity yet to be proven, and seemingly good potential. He did dominate GP2 in his first year, which is something worth commending him for.

Now you're making whine from sour grapes. You act as if Vettel has been a complete disappointment since promotion.

No, I didn't mean that, but, as many have said before, Vettel's pole and win was thanks to the decision of the team to spend the entire weekend setting up the car for the wet, the frontrunners getting tyre strategy all wrong, and some real talent. Bourdais qualified 4th on the grid that day, as well, so it wasn't all driver. Vettel has been anything but a disappointment since his promotion.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He wasn't doing so well initially, but later on, as the season progressed, he started to equal and sometimes even better the already proven Rubens Barrichello.

And yet, he still finished behind Barrichello more often than he finished ahead of him.

I don't understand your fascination with qualifying pace. It's one lap under optimal conditions, while the race is fifty laps where a driver has to balance tyre wear and fuel loads. Qualifying certainly helps a driver secure a better result, but Nico Hulkenberg and Bruno Senna are cut from the same cloth: they simply cannot convert decent qualifying positions into actual race results.

He did dominate GP2 in his first year, which is something worth commending him for.

Only because Romain Grosjean left the series halfway through.

 

[Peter.]

What can you expect from Nico's rookie season? Do you expect him to move mountains and cure world hunger?

He ripened over the course of the season, and was starting to equal and even better the most experienced driver in the history of the sport. Not worth commending?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

More driver injustice being done today. Sutil getting the boot. Great driver, to be honest, who deserves a race winning seat.

Back to Torro Rosso, Jamie and Sebastian don't have the chance to prove themselves championship worthy. For them to be promoted, Red Bull would want what Vettel did with the car in 2008. A pole and a win. But that will probably never happen, because that pole and win was a fluke to begin with. Red Bull, as well as most of the fans, have set a standard which they will never be able to reach.

That is also not helped by the fact that Torro Rosso is nothing more than a Driving Academy for Red Bull now. They will never be given the money or resources to ever challenge for the championship, they are only given enough to be a midfielder and nothing more. Why? Because that's all Red Bull wants out of them. If Torro Rosso were t ever beat Red Bull again, then Red Bull would take away from Torro Rosso what is why they were able to beat them. 2008, they took away Sebastian Vettel, as well as a relatively slow car development during the 2009 season, meaning parts that were on the RB5 from races like Silverstone, wouldn't be on the STR4 until Hungary the earliest.

Sutil has been around since 06 more so 07 till now and has had more of a chance to prove his worth. I think he did a good job this year and helped FI almost beat a bigger team in the WCC which was Renault. He did a great job this year, but I think FI want more and Sutil has had much time to do this, I don't see Sutil in the same light as the two former STR drivers. However, I do think that the newer teams like FI or Virgin don't understand a key thing, their car building at this moment is sub-par and it's not the drivers that they higher. A driver can only do so much with a car of that limit versus an RB7 or MP4-26.

As far as STR goes you have to wonder a few things I do remember the STR being on the same frame as the RB and the only difference was engine providers (which proves further prove the engine debate from earlier on this thread) so why didn't the car perform? I think I'll have to agree that maybe the order to get parts to STR was slower than RBR, but I'd have to see evidence that proves it.

For now STR is a glorified GP2 team and it seems that this is the look we'll get of it in 2012.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What can you expect from Nico's rookie season?

If he was as good as everyone made him out to be, then he should have been forming Hamilton-esque feats of driving that suggested he had already been in the sport for years. Maybe not winning races (because the FW32 was not up to it), but certainly getting more out of the car than other people could have. Kind of like Alonso this year - he took the F150 Italia beyond its abilities. A lot was made of the way Hulkenberg won the GP2 Series on debut, but his 2010 season was consistently disappointing. He slipped back during the race far too often, and his reactions off the line were dismal. Watch his start at Suzuka in particular; although he retired when he was hit by Petrov, he was nearly two seconds slower than everyone else to react to the start. And it wasn't the only time he did it.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I think the Hulk will silence a few people this year. Watch his GP2 races, he has racecraft. I would go as far as to say he will almost certainly finish ahead of Di Resta in the final standings.

And if anyone wants a wager on that I am all ears.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Watch his GP2 races, he has racecraft.

Watch his Formula 1 races. Whatever racecraft he had in GP2 simply wasn't good enough.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well we'll have to see about that. I like Hulk but I still say that those two are only going to get so much from the car before their abilities become moot.

 

[The Outlaw]

In the modern era of Formula 1, you have to hit the ground running. Mistakes can only be tolerated for so long - but Nico Hulkenberg used up all of his rookie errors early in the season. He's a weak racer, and one of the worst drivers off the line; all throughout the 2010 season, he was one of the last (if not the last) to react to the lights going out.

Dropping Sutil for Hulkenberg was a mistake. Sutil is a proven quantity. The only thing Nico Hulkenberg has demonstrated is the ability to finish the race in a lower position than he started.

Although I agree that Sutil should have been kept for 2012 (after performing quite admirably in 2011), I don't see why you're being so harsh on Hulkenberg tbh. Who cares if such drivers are possibly overated before coming into the sport. Is it really any worse than a driver who only gets a seat because of their sponsors money, and not their track record and potential shown before entering the sport?

Hulkenberg only finished 5 points shy of Petrov in 2010 (27-22), while Petrov had a car that was most likely FAR better - yet I didn't see you moaning when Petrov got a 2nd shot in 2011.

That said, I think Hulkenberg is deserving of a 2nd try, although I don't think it should be at the expense of a solid talent like Sutil...but that's the way F1 is, especially nowadays.

Worse has lasted longer in F1 than Hulkenberg.. and lets be honest, you have to hit the ground running or have sponsors with nice big chequebook.

I certainly agree with that

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Some interesting Tweets from f1enigma:

Do you feel "full" with this year driver market? Some "closed cases" might reopen

-------

Jarnos seat is fully open, so thats not it

At a pinch, I'd have to guess that a Marussia seat might also open up, and that the Williams seat might become available.

And today's stupid rumour: Massa out, Sutil in at Ferrari. Courtesy of Auto Motor und Sport.

Hulkenberg only finished 5 points shy of Petrov in 2010 (27-22), while Petrov had a car that was most likely FAR better - yet I didn't see you moaning when Petrov got a 2nd shot in 2011.

Because Petrov demonstrated that he could get better.

 

[The Outlaw]

Because Petrov demonstrated that he could get better.

Please explain

Throughout Hulkenberg's rookie season, his general performance trend throughout the season was one of upward progression, as he began to outperform Barichello in the 2nd half of the season. With that said, who's to say he couldn't have continued to do better or improve, other than you? There seems to be a double standard, as usual...

 

[hawkeye122]

Only because Romain Grosjean left the series halfway through.

Yes, because the 2nd best in GP2 aren't good enough.... Wait, wasn't Petrov 2nd in 2009? You love him.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Grosjean was more competitive than Petrov in GP2. I'm secure enough to be able to admit that. Had Grosjean stayed in the series instead of moving up to Renault, he probably could have kept Hulkenberg honest for the remainder of the season - and possibly would have made Hulkenberg work for the title.

Anyway, back onto the topic of driver moves, and I'm hearing that Alguersuari is trying to negotiate a two-year deal with HRT: test and reserve driver in 2012, with a race seat in 2013. Kind of like the contract Liuzzi had with Force India.

 

[Seismica]

Please explain

Throughout Hulkenberg's rookie season, his general performance trend throughout the season was one of upward progression, as he began to outperform Barichello in the 2nd half of the season. With that said, who's to say he couldn't have continued to do better or improve, other than you? There seems to be a double standard, as usual...

I'd like this explained too. Hulkenberg demonstrated himself as perhaps the best rookie in 2010. The only reason Kobayashi was regarded as better was due to his overtaking moves, and Petrov had a faster car. Hulkenberg's rookie year was better than most drivers in the sport, and he did was few drivers have managed to do in F1, get a pole position in his rookie year, in the 6th fastest car. They shouldn't have even made Q3, the Mercedes and the Mclaren of Rosberg and Button respectively had the potential to be faster.

Qualifying ahead of faster cars and then being overtaken by said faster cars in the race is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'd like this explained too. Hulkenberg demonstrated himself as perhaps the best rookie in 2010.

I don't think he displayed nearly as much talent as most people made out. That's just my opinion. I look at his results, and I see someone who tended to finish in a lower position than he qualified in, who was slowest off the line in 90% of the races, and who was generally underwhelming. I never saw his latent talent shine through, the way Petrov's did when he had the measure of Robert Kubica for an entire weekend in Hungary. And to cap it all off, I found his attitude appalling - Williams offered him a seat in 2011, and he refused because he had to find sponsors to keep his seat. Likewise, he turned his nose up at a seat with HRT because they were not competitive enough for him, and at Virgin because he felt being beaten by another German (Glock) would damage his career.

 

[astrosdude91]

He didn't want the seat at Williams because he didn't want to be labeled a "pay driver".

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Most of the grid bring sponsors to their teams these days. It's part and pacel of being a Formula 1 driver, simply because the sport is so expensive. There are only a handful of drivers without any sponsors these days, and Nico Hulkenberg's 2010 season was not impressive enough for him to simply step into this group of drivers.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm seeing reports (the same one I likes to earlier regarding Massa and Sutil) claiming that Rubens Barrichello has five million Euros' worth of sponsorship.

 

[Sach]

I'm seeing reports (the same one I likes to earlier regarding Massa and Sutil) claiming that Rubens Barrichello has five million Euros' worth of sponsorship.

That would be a cold move to pull on Massa, not that it's unquestionable in the sport. Still, I think Sutil at Ferrari would be more interesting. I'd have to question whether Massa can really gain much confidence during the break, knowing his time at the team after next season is hanging on by a thread. It would also be interesting to see him (hopefully) use the motivation to step his game up in 2012.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, Massa was the first driver since Ivan Capelli twenty years ago to finish a season without so much as a podium ...

 

[Peter.]

Well, with the incredibly low amount of retirements in the races nowadays, and Massa only really competing for 6th in the races, because both Red Bulls, both McLarens and Alonso lockout the top 5. Massa would take advantage of whomever in the top 5 slips up though, or become a victim, like it has been many times this year with Hamilton.

Canada would have been a podium for Massa though.