The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

DesertPenguin

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At this point it feels like we need a separate topic to compile all of the information into since it's starting to take over the America Thread. That thread, as far as I understand, should be about everything going in America, and if there is something in particular we want to discuss at length we make a new thread for it, like the Coronavirus. If this doesn't need it's own thread then by all means I apologize and please close this up.
 
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Why was George arrested for in the first place?

Why was he resisting his arrest?

The guy was cuffed already, why stand on his neck for more than necessary?

The officer who stood on George and pin him down and all those involved to allow that to happen should be punished for their actions...

The guy died before he got his fair trial, if he did anything at all...

His killers should be punished.
 

Submerged

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I came across the newspaper this morning about it.

Seems that a cashier thought George Floyd gave a fake 20 dollar note to make a purchase.

Called the police.

Police came.

For some reason, the details after that wasn't clear, but the end result was, he was arrested and wasn't resisting arrest until he was heading/in the car (article wasn't clear on this) and then George Floyd said he was not at all comfortable in confined spaces and was having a minor panic attack.

So the cops restrained him to the position as pictured many times all over the internet.

I am sure others will be able to give more detailed facts, but the above was what I got from the Sunday Times, if I recall it correctly.
 

Joey D

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Why was George arrested for in the first place?

Allegedly using a counterfeit $20 bill.

Why was he resisting his arrest?

I don't think we know and we're not even sure how much resisting he was doing. There are videos that show he's unwilling to get out of his car, while there are others that show him complying.
 
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If what you say is true, the poor guy died for a stinking 20 dollars?!??

Even if he did use a fake $20 bills, c'mon people... This is outrageous!



Edit:
We are all humans going through tough times right now, can't anyone get at least the benefit of the doubt?

Why are we trusting so much those who accuse others of wrong doing? Could the cashier have done a mistake??

Why did we allowed all this to escalate so too quickly!

For 20 fake dollars?!
 
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Joey D

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If what you say is true, the poor guy died for a stinking 20 dollars?!??

Even if he did use a fake $20 bills, c'mon people... This is outrageous!



Edit:
We are all humans going through tough times right now, can't anyone get at least the benefit of the doubt?

Why are we trusting so much those who accuse others of wrong doing? Could the cashier have done a mistake??

Why did we allowed all this to escalate to quickly!

For 20 fake dollars?!

Especially because there's something like $100-$200 million counterfeit currency in circulation. The likelihood of you getting a counterfeit bill as change is higher than most people realized.
 

Liquid

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There's apparently a dispute in reporting whether it was a forged cheque and a counterfeit $20 bill. There's definitely a critical difference between trying to pass off a knowingly forged cheque and innocently paying with a counterfeit banknote you have no knowledge of that could have been given to you anywhere by anyone or anything.
 
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There's apparently a dispute in reporting whether it was a forged cheque and a counterfeit $20 bill. There's definitely a critical difference between trying to pass off a knowingly forged cheque and innocently paying with a counterfeit banknote you have no knowledge of that could have been given to you anywhere by anyone or anything.


You make it sound like a forged check is justification for the use of deadly force...
 

Northstar

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You make it sound like a forged check is justification for the use of deadly force...

It's not, but it would go a long way in explaining why 4 cops were there in the first place.
 

Joey D

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There's apparently a dispute in reporting whether it was a forged cheque and a counterfeit $20 bill. There's definitely a critical difference between trying to pass off a knowingly forged cheque and innocently paying with a counterfeit banknote you have no knowledge of that could have been given to you anywhere by anyone or anything.

The criminal complaint against the officer says it was a $20 bill. Many places in the US now won't even take a check since there's a big risk of it bouncing.

In an interview, the cashier of the store went to, Mike Abumayyaleh, said Floyd was a regular and he suspected the Floyd didn't know the bill was counterfeit. Abumayyaleh also made it sound like counterfeit money is relatively common at the store too and the policy was to inform the police. He said people typically aren't arrested and the police just want to get an idea where the money came from.

However it's been reported when Floyd was confronted by Abumayyaleh, he wasn't in control and was drunk. I could see that happening too, being drunk, wanting a cigarette, and being told your money is fake could set a person off. The police should've known this though and once they confirmed there was no weapon, Floyd should've just been put into a patrol car. The most he probably would've been charged with is disorderly conduct or public drunkeness.

It's hard to say what happened though. The officer clearly used excessive force since once the suspect is cuffed and on the ground, they're not able to do much. But prior to Floyd being cuffed the force could've been appropriate depending on how difficult Floyd was being. I don't know if there's enough evidence that's public right now to make that call.
 

ROAD_DOGG33J

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I'm reading that there are also protests in Canada (seen Montreal and Toronto so far), among other countries. I wonder how widespread they are.
 
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It's not, but it would go a long way in explaining why 4 cops were there in the first place.

Interesting that you answer for Liquid.

But still I don't think I agree with you...
Even if it was the case as he previously claimed, which it is not, 4 cops cornering a guy is sure to tip him off.

The criminal complaint against the officer says it was a $20 bill. Many places in the US now won't even take a check since there's a big risk of it bouncing.

In an interview, the cashier of the store went to, Mike Abumayyaleh, said Floyd was a regular and he suspected the Floyd didn't know the bill was counterfeit. Abumayyaleh also made it sound like counterfeit money is relatively common at the store too and the policy was to inform the police. He said people typically aren't arrested and the police just want to get an idea where the money came from.

However it's been reported when Floyd was confronted by Abumayyaleh, he wasn't in control and was drunk. I could see that happening too, being drunk, wanting a cigarette, and being told your money is fake could set a person off. The police should've known this though and once they confirmed there was no weapon, Floyd should've just been put into a patrol car. The most he probably would've been charged with is disorderly conduct or public drunkeness.

It's hard to say what happened though. The officer clearly used excessive force since once the suspect is cuffed and on the ground, they're not able to do much. But prior to Floyd being cuffed the force could've been appropriate depending on how difficult Floyd was being. I don't know if there's enough evidence that's public right now to make that call.

Thanks for the clarification.


All these could have been prevented if people know how to deal with situation in a more peaceful way, and always pushed for a discussion rather than accusing on the spot.

The situation should have been explained very clearly to Floyd, but if he was drunk... I guess that's how things escalated this way.



Whether there was high probability of him being guilty of some sort of not, but considering how big of a guy George is/was I am sure some force was required to put the cuff on him, but once in cuffs, I failed to see the justification that standing on the guy's neck, to teach him a lesson on not resisting the police is a very bad one.

I know that tensions can run extremely high in any situation from a police perspective, and the police can lose patience real fast.

The cop who pinned him down probably was frustrated having to fight him to get him cuffed, but once cuffed, he should have stopped taking it personally.

That was the error he should be punished for, along with all other officers there.
 

DesertPenguin

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All these could have been prevented if people know how to deal with situation in a more peaceful way, and always pushed for a discussion rather than accusing on the spot.
You're missing the point. There are people that use the badge as an excuse to knowingly deal with situations in the way they see fit. This is part of the police brutality issue.
 
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You're missing the point. There are people that use the badge as an excuse to knowingly deal with situations in the way they see fit. This is part of the police brutality issue.

I didn't.

I did write this:

The cop who pinned him down probably was frustrated having to fight him to get him cuffed, but once cuffed, he should have stopped taking it personally.
 
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It's not, but it would go a long way in explaining why 4 cops were there in the first place.

As someone standing from the outside I think this statement right here is one of the big problems you guys in the US have. A guy with a counterfeit check does not need four cops on the scene. One, that's all it would take to solve it. That four people are present for something like this is an imbalance of power.
 

Dotini

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I ran across this statement:

If ever there was a time for joining forces and pulling together as a nation, a global community, and a single species, this is it. COVID-19 does not recognize national borders or social boundaries. It will infect and possibly kill anyone regardless of nationality, race, religion, gender, sex, age, education, wealth, social status, or political affiliation.​

It made me think now may not be the best time to assemble in political protest.
 

Northstar

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As someone standing from the outside I think this statement right here is one of the big problems you guys in the US have. A guy with a counterfeit check does not need four cops on the scene. One, that's all it would take to solve it. That four people are present for something like this is an imbalance of power.

I’m not arguing that it’s ok, just trying to help people understand things. I can’t say I’m pleased with how the police handled any part of this mess.
 

BobK

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Especially because there's something like $100-$200 million counterfeit currency in circulation. The likelihood of you getting a counterfeit bill as change is higher than most people realized.

Whether it was forgery or passing counterfeit money (my understanding is it was a counterfeit $20 bill) it in no way justifies summary execution, which is what this boiled down to.
 

PeterJB

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Whether it was forgery or passing counterfeit money (my understanding is it was a counterfeit $20 bill) it in no way justifies summary execution, which is what this boiled down to.

Indeed, it's fair enough to question the guy and determine if he even knew it was counterfeit money. In the same way with Rodney King, he was speeding, evading the police and drunk-driving, which violated his parole. The police had every right to pull him over and arrest him, but not to beat him to a bloody pulp.
 

Dave A

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From what I know, Floyd was trying to spend a counterfeit note, but he very possibly didn't know he was. I probably have spent counterfiet money without knowing, most people probably have. The cop could have taken that into consideration and in my opinon he should have. His approach was very heavy handed for the alleged offence, it did not seem proportional to me at all.

There is a suggestion that Floyed resisted arrest. If that is true, then what did he hope to achieve by resisting arrest? Regardless of if he resisted or not, it doesn't justify what happened to him afterwards though. That was tragic and demonstrates a further overreaction from the cop. To kneel on a persons neck like that, someone whose hands were cuffed behind his back and he was subdued on the ground was brutal.

I believe that cop has since been arrested and charged with murder, so it seems justice is being served to this cop. Protests and riots are more likely to harm the case rather than help it.

I do feel for his family, this shouldn't have happened, at all, but at the same time I don't condone the riots and violent protests that have broken out as a result. That is nothing more than opportunistic anarchism in my mind.
 
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PeterJB

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I'm totally amazed by how much traction this has got. The controversy surrounding Armaud Arbery's murder was that the killers evaded justice for over two months, even with video footage of the incident, and that got hardly any attention outside the US. With Rodney King the riots didn't start until the cops were acquitted more than a year after the beating took place. Derek Chauvin has been arrested, no one is taking his side, and not only are there riots taking place across the entire nation, but there are marches and protest in numerous other countries and endless posts of solidarity on social media, which are becoming increasingly aggressive in their compulsions for everyone else to do the same. Social distancing has gone down the drain too, in a couple of weeks we can expect another big spike in COVID-19 cases after all this has settled down.

I think to be honest this is the first major distraction the world has had since the pandemic started, so it's either talk about this or talk about the virus.
 

Blitz24

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I'm totally amazed by how much traction this has got. The controversy surrounding Armaud Arbery's murder was that the killers evaded justice for over two months, even with video footage of the incident, and that got hardly any attention outside the US. With Rodney King the riots didn't start until the cops were acquitted more than a year after the beating took place. Derek Chauvin has been arrested, no one is taking his side, and not only are there riots taking place across the entire nation, but there are marches and protest in numerous other countries and endless posts of solidarity on social media, which are becoming increasingly aggressive in their compulsions for everyone else to do the same. Social distancing has gone down the drain too, in a couple of weeks we can expect another big spike in COVID-19 cases after all this has settled down.

I think to be honest this is the first major distraction the world has had since the pandemic started, so it's either talk about this or talk about the virus.
What Chauvin did is inexcusable and it's as if some of those with a badge are looking not to neutralize, but also eliminate threats.
 

Joey D

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Whether it was forgery or passing counterfeit money (my understanding is it was a counterfeit $20 bill) it in no way justifies summary execution, which is what this boiled down to.

Absolutely agree.

There is a suggestion that Floyed resisted arrest. If that is true, then what did he hope to achieve by resisting arrest? Regardless of if he resisted or not, it doesn't justify what happened to him afterwards though. That was tragic and demonstrates a further overreaction from the cop. To kneel on a persons neck like that, someone whose hands were cuffed behind his back and he was subdued on the ground was brutal.

If you're an angry drunk or a confrontational drunk, I could easily see this happening. I'm guessing he wasn't trying to achieve anything, it was just the alcohol talking instead of reason.
 

UKMikey

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I wonder how important it'll be at his trial that Chauvin had a prior acquaintance with Floyd or whether it comes up at all.

I also wonder given the worldwide scale of the protests how long it'll be that the pushback against them changes from "they made an arrest, stop whining already" to "this is an international conspiracy organised by communist China to distract from their role in developing the coronavirus". Hopefully if anyone comes up with this hot take they'll provide some form of evidence for such a serious accusation.

It's interesting that the sole remaining Trumpist on my social media feed complained about "political spin" when the mayor of Massachusetts blamed out of state white supremacists for exacerbating the riots but went silent when Trump declared Antifa a terrorist organisation.
 
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Dotini

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I wonder how important it'll be at his trial that Chauvin had a prior acquaintance with Floyd or whether it comes up at all.

I also wonder given the worldwide scale of the protests how long it'll be that the pushback against them changes from "they made an arrest, stop whining already" to "this is an international conspiracy organised by communist China to distract from their role in developing the coronavirus". Hopefully if anyone comes up with this hot take they'll provide some form of evidence for such a serious accusation.
It'll be very handy in proving motive and intent. It was much more than an acquaintance according to what I heard, it was a real animosity.

Your 2nd question is harder to answer without more global knowledge. I'm 100% certain there was domestic organization behind the violence.
 
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UKMikey

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It'll be very handy in proving motive and intent. It was much more than an acquaintance according to what I heard, it was a real animosity.
Is it necessary to prove intent and motive in a third degree murder charge?

Are prosecutors allowed to change the charge in an ongoing trial to second degree or higher should new evidence come to light supporting this?
 

DesertPenguin

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Is it necessary to prove intent and motive in a third degree murder charge?
No, that's what makes is 2nd degree murder charge, and also why they are going for a 3rd degree murder charge. It's more likely to stick.
Are prosecutors allowed to change the charge in an ongoing trial to second degree or higher should new evidence come to light supporting this?
I don't know
 

Joey D

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Are prosecutors allowed to change the charge in an ongoing trial to second degree or higher should new evidence come to light supporting this?

It's dependant on the state I believe, but in most cases, yes, charges can be changed or added before the trial begins. I'm not 100% sure what happens once the trial begins though.
 

Dotini

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Is it necessary to prove intent and motive in a third degree murder charge?

Are prosecutors allowed to change the charge in an ongoing trial to second degree or higher should new evidence come to light supporting this?
Motive and intent are required for a first degree murder change, to the best of my knowledge. I believe there was motive and intent.

Prosecutors are certainly able to change the charges (before the trial), even without additional evidence. I believe they will find this evidence rather easily.

A conviction of 3rd degree murder would be a real travesty of justice, IMHO. Even I, at the age of 72 with a bad knee, would go out and protest that one.
 

DesertPenguin

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I agree it's not enough, but if it's more likely to get him in jail then go for it. That's the main objective at this point and I don't mind a shortcut.

Minnesota law states that persons convicted of 3rd degree murder could be sentenced to up to 25 years in prison, a fine up to $40,000, or both, according to Minnesota statutes. However, the state's sentencing guidelines normally recommend 12 1/2 years for a conviction on the murder charge and four years for manslaughter. 25 years isn't the point since he's a cop in jail. We all know how that ends.