The absurdness of "hardcore"...

[kanjifreak]

Hello,

I've been intensely playing video games for almost 30 years. GT5 has turned into one of my modern favorites. I have read so many comments in this forum about the so called "hardcore" nature of the game, and must state the following for the vast majority of the GT5 players:

Unlocking the hardest stuff in GT5 is very hard to do. People saying "oh, it's very easy" are most likely trying to show off in a very typical immature way.

Please understand that unlocking the toughest is not a matter of skill, it is a matter of repetition and memorization in order to learn the exact required pattern to meet the required time. That is not skill, that is only following a pattern by learning it from trial and error in order to comply with the algorithm set by the programmer.

Skill would be unlocking the toughest things in the game out of your perfect driving technique, without memorizing, but that would be impossible because this is a just a video game, not an art or something you can execute with skill "a priori".

For the people that feel frustrated for not being able to unlock certain things please don't get discouraged, and ignore the childish comments like "oh, I did it easily, etc." There are really nice persons here that offer quality advise where there is margin for tweaking or strategizing, but not all the unlockables can benefit from that.

Unlocking the hardest stuff has no margin for skill, nor strategy, it is only an algorithm that must be fulfilled with a pre-memorized pattern (gold on certain events, etc.)

It is disappointing though that "hardcore" video games in their toughest challenges are still using the old formula of the 80's: memorization instead of strategy or skill "as is".

Maybe I'm asking too much from programming itself...

 

[givmedew]

I totally agree with you on the "oh, I did it easily, etc." comments being ridiculous. They do nothing for the person having the problem. If you don't have something to say to help a person having a hard time then don't bash them bye saying it was super easy.

Now that said as far as being hardcore the game is NOT and it is too easy of a game. Meaning that besides a handfull of races over 80% of the races are beyond too easy and could benefit greatly from restrictions that where present in previous games.

Or if they want to leave the game open to unskilled players then add a hardcore or easy mode one or the other so that players that are skilled can have restrictions and quicker xp gains and then unskilled players can use super cars against family cars crash into the walls and still win the race just like in the non simulator games! This however is suposed to be a realistic racing game and therefore I should never be able to put a veyron on the same track as a m3 unless of course that track happens to be nur!

Anyways you can also see from what I wrote that I disagree with your skill statement

Just an opinion! But bottom line I believe that a long long time ago when I started karting and sucked then during winter played gt2 for several thousand hrs then came back the next year and had learned a lot about the fundamentals of racing: when to brake, how to select a proper line, etc and so forth. I was a much better driver the next year. So I believe that there is some connection as I am frightfully horrible at all other video games on the ps3 console!

 

[kanjifreak]

I totally agree with you. GT5 is completely unbalanced, and it is too easy without stricter restrictions in races. I meant "hardcore" when referring to the toughest challenges, like gold on certain special events, etc. Those don't require skill alone, those require memorization to follow the one and only pattern that will be enough to get the gold.

If I could see a guy beating the toughest golds by margins of a second, then I'll be wrong, but yet, it is impossible.

P.S. GT5 is awesome anyway, and yes, it really helps in learning real driving techniques. I've learned a lot too since GT1. 👍

 

[HN7]

Keep practicing? I mean everything in life is set by a standard and if your skill is below it, you'll have to improve yourself.
An example is real life license test. There is only one test, you can't pass it? try harder. It's not impossible.
If you want an unlock everything code, EA games are what you're looking for.

 

[MidianGTX]

So you're saying there's no skill in computer games? Learning a complex set of situations, commands and possible outcomes requires no skill? Training and increasing your reflex speed isn't a skill? Because we're basically also describing sports here too and just try telling those guys it's all just memorization.

 

[tezster]

I agree to an extent what the OP states, but not entirely. All skill is gained by some degree through repetition and memorization. By your logic, any 'skill' obtained in this manner isn't in fact a skill. Repeatedly going through a similar exercise is exactly how you get 'good' at something.

It's the reason why pro athletes go through endless repetitions of the same drills - you're training your muscles as well as your brain to react without having to consciously think about performing a certain action i.e. it becomes instinctive.

 

[kanjifreak]

I agree to an extent what the OP states, but not entirely. All skill is gained by some degree through repetition and memorization. By your logic, any 'skill' obtained in this manner isn't in fact a skill. Repeatedly going through a similar exercise is exactly how you get 'good' at something.

It's the reason why pro athletes go through endless repetitions of the same drills - you're training your muscles as well as your brain to react without having to consciously think about performing a certain action i.e. it becomes instinctive.

All I'm saying is that the toughest challenges in GT5 (like the gold in certain special events) don't require skill alone. Of course improving reflex time and other factors are part of a skill, but those precise challenges do require memorization as a main element.

Top athletes can react to different situations and use their skill (not their memorized patterns) to sort out said situations and change on the fly, they just don't face the same things over and over again under the exact same conditions and the exact same pattern, unlike the absurd toughest golds in GT5.

That's what I'm saying. If someone proves that they got the toughest gold by a margin of a second then I'll be wrong, but the way it is now, the toughest golds are on the minimum possible timeframe according to the algorithm set by the programmer.

 

[MidianGTX]

It's a tough call to make, because then we're putting skill very close to natural talent... and if games required that they'd just turn out impossible for some people.

 

[kanjifreak]

It's a tough call to make, because then we're putting skill very close to natural talent... and if games required that they'd just turn out impossible for some people.

That is exactly what is happening with the toughest golds, there is no margin for "natural talent" or sorting out things as required (as in a real race where the cars are moving randomly and changing positions).

If you want those golds, you have to memorize either the AI (which does have patterns) or the exact place where you must turn, brake, etc.

All according to an absurd programming algorithm that needs memorization, not skill, talent or anything else alone.

 

[MidianGTX]

I see what you're saying, especially in regards to the AI... but a lot of real world racing is based on memorization as well. Formula 1 drivers are exceedingly familiar with racing lines and braking zones on the tracks they drive. The best example of skill taking place over memorization would be rally, which is probably why I respect those guys more

 

[kanjifreak]

Oh, and GT5 is awesome, don't take me wrong, I love the game. I totally agree with the guy that said that it is very easy without stricter restrictions in some races. On another concern, the toughest golds are absurd and tiresome, for the reasons explained above. Nevertheless, I'm getting them patiently one by one...

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Racing need you to repeat the same things over and over, you have to give the best of yourself doing laps and laps of the same racetrack.

People complain that GT5 dont have enough track but F1 driver and other racers usually dont drive on more than 25-30 racetrack in there career. Racing is all about repeating lap to improves you're driving, that's what racing is all about.

Gold are hard to get, sure they are, but that's the top of the game.

I have a question do you finish all the game you're playing at 100% ? Because I usually dont. I dont mean to the end, I mean getting everything, trophee included. GT5 is the same you can finish the game with getting all bronze and if you're ok with that it's fine, honestly no one ask you to get gold.

 

[kanjifreak]

I see what you're saying, especially in regards to the AI... but a lot of real world racing is based on memorization as well. Formula 1 drivers are exceedingly familiar with racing lines and braking zones on the tracks they drive. The best example of skill taking place over memorization would be rally, which is probably why I respect those guys more

Hats off for Rally dudes, man... They are my heroes.

F1 drivers do memorize but they got a sick load of talent too, just watch them altering the driving lines to overtake if extremely demanded by the situation.

I wish the toughest golds had a margin for that, damn programmers, hope they take that into consideration in a near future, I've been waiting 30 years for that...

Racing need you to repeat the same things over and over, you have to give the best of yourself doing laps and laps of the same racetrack.

People complain that GT5 dont have enough track but F1 driver and other racers usually dont drive on more than 25-30 racetrack in there career. Racing is all about repeating lap to improves you're driving, that's what racing is all about.

Gold are hard to get, sure they are, but that's the top of the game.

I have a question do you finish all the game you're playing at 100% ? Because I usually dont. I dont mean to the end, I mean getting everything, trophee included. GT5 is the same you can finish the game with getting all bronze and if you're ok with that it's fine, honestly no one ask you to get gold.

I don't do it anymore, I'm getting older and my eyes strain, plus I got some other obligations with my family, job, etc. I did finish all my games and tried to get all the stuff up to the PS2, after that, I'm much more selective, and I've selected GT5 right now, I'll need a lot of patience.

 

[Ritterkreuz]

The difficulty of the races is suiting me just fine, save for a couple where a race car I can't buy yet is required to win (I.E. Like the Wind), and the Daytona race in the NASCAR championship.

The challenges ans license tests though have always been too difficult in all of the GT games. In fact, I've never gotten through all the licenses in any one of them. In GT5, that's not a problem, but in previous versions this has effectively denied me from playing large chunks of the game. thankfully a sympathetic friend would complete them for me.

My point is, if you make a game too difficult, sure, the hardcore gamers will love it, but the vast majority will get frustrated and stop playing, which means they won't buy the sequel. Without us "average" gamers, there simply wouldn't be enough revenue generated to justify future games.

 

[RacingManiac]

The racing part of the license tests never bothered me as much, beating another car, be it AI or otherwise, is always more tangible than trying to find thousandth of a sec, as is the case for some license test for me(I think one that came to mind is one with M5 at Trial Mountain, I am literally right now sitting at 0.001 sec away from gold and can't get to it....bugs the hell out of me...). I did pay more attention this time around to trying to gold the tests, and they have been challenging at times, and often hugely frustrating. Though sometimes I rationalize it that if I lose to a sector goal by 10th or half a tenth, I lose more time around a lap, so it is meant to try to be better...

Repetition is huge part in racing. Even in Rallying. The idea of pace notes is from driving the stages beforehand and note down the detail, albeit not at full tilt in the WRC cars.

 

[KyppDurron]

Did you really make a post about people showing off and then put in a comment about a priori knowledge?


Did someone just have their first philosophy 101 class?

In addition, it is incorrect to reference a priori knowledge the way that you do. In fact it is arguable that a priori knowledge does not even exist, and certainly cannot be applied to any art or to a skill. By definition, those things are a posteriori.

-removed-

 

[Toronto122]

I also am a 30 year vet of video games. And the early games did require a very rudimentary pattern to be memorized to get to the next level.

However, comparing a racing game to Super Mario or Donkey Kong isn't right. In those games it was a strict, set pattern. In GT, your tires heat up a bit more on lap 2 than lap 1, you miss an apex by just a bit, you get a draft, those are things that change on EVERY lap.

And, it's been proven that GT (and Forza) help drivers. Take the Nurburgring for example...if you practice that on a game and then go to the track and drive it, you'll be all the better for it. How many of us DON'T know every turn on the Green Hell?? That's memorization. It doesn't mean we'll pull off a perfect lap every time. Unlike Donkey Kong, you memorize a level, you do perfect on it every time (pretty much). Games have progressed immensely in 30+years. Although our video games only run at 60fps, there's over 360 calculations per second! Tell me that's not progress.

 

[Troux]

The only event that I think this applies to is the Night Tuscany event, where you can't see the road because the headlights in this game are flashlights, and several people who completed it said they just memorized where the track was, where to turn, etc. I cheated by turning up the settings on my TV so I could see the apexes that I needed to nail in order to gold. That challenge was BS, and the lighting just really dismantled all of Kaz's "I'll only add it to the game if we can make it perfect" claims.

Besides that, memorizing a track is learning a track, and it's what pro drivers do. To pass the X1 challenges, I had to carefully figure out which corners I had to lift on, which corners I had to brake on, exactly how much brake I could get away with, which corners I could go flat out on, and how I had to alter all of the above if I didn't enter the corner at the correct angle/speed. By the time I was done, I knew the track better, and I knew the car better, and I did it through memorization. What's more, the FGT felt like slow motion after those events, so I got better at that car, too.

The "top athletes" in motor sports rely on skill to get them around when they are either on an unfamiliar track, or in a different situation on a familiar track. There are a lot of race car drivers out there that can drive certain tracks blindfolded. That's memorization, and it comes from experience, nothing else. I don't see what's so wrong with that. It's not the same as memorizing terms or dates for a quiz, because that information can be temporarily stored, and can go without every being applied later. Memorizing, for example, Suzuka will leave you skilled at Chicanes, high speed braking, sweepers, hairpins, tight corners, elevation changes, throttle control and countless other basic racing SKILLS.

 

[kanjifreak]

Did you really make a post about people showing off and then put in a comment about a priori knowledge?


Did someone just have their first philosophy 101 class?

English is not my first language mister, I used "a priori" because I couldn't find the appropriate common word to express my point, and used it exactly because even youthful internet guys know it as a universal concept.

P.S. Last time I went to school was 10 years ago, when I got my Law degree.

Did you really make a post about people showing off and then put in a comment about a priori knowledge?


Did someone just have their first philosophy 101 class?

In addition, it is also incorrect to reference it as a priori knowledge the way you are defining it. That is like saying that race car drivers have this innate ability to drive the car. It is completely inaccurate to think of it that way. Only in movies do people step into the car and turn in a 6 minute lap on Nurburbring, for example. In every way possible those drivers are drawing on their a posteriori knowledge, gained from years of training.

-removed-

I guess you don't understand your own language... Read again before insulting:

Skill would be unlocking the toughest things in the game out of your perfect driving technique, without memorizing, but that would be impossible because this is a just a video game, not an art or something you can execute with skill "a priori".

Hope you understand this time.

The only event that I think this applies to is the Night Tuscany event, where you can't see the road because the headlights in this game are flashlights, and several people who completed it said they just memorized where the track was, where to turn, etc. I cheated by turning up the settings on my TV so I could see the apexes that I needed to nail in order to gold. That challenge was BS, and the lighting just really dismantled all of Kaz's "I'll only add it to the game if we can make it perfect" claims.

Besides that, memorizing a track is learning a track, and it's what pro drivers do. To pass the X1 challenges, I had to carefully figure out which corners I had to lift on, which corners I had to brake on, exactly how much brake I could get away with, which corners I could go flat out on, and how I had to alter all of the above if I didn't enter the corner at the correct angle/speed. By the time I was done, I knew the track better, and I knew the car better, and I did it through memorization. What's more, the FGT felt like slow motion after those events, so I got better at that car, too.

The "top athletes" in motor sports rely on skill to get them around when they are either on an unfamiliar track, or in a different situation on a familiar track. There are a lot of race car drivers out there that can drive certain tracks blindfolded. That's memorization, and it comes from experience, nothing else. I don't see what's so wrong with that. It's not the same as memorizing terms or dates for a quiz, because that information can be temporarily stored, and can go without every being applied later. Memorizing, for example, Suzuka will leave you skilled at Chicanes, high speed braking, sweepers, hairpins, tight corners, elevation changes, throttle control and countless other basic racing SKILLS.

I'm not against memorization in racing, it is vital indeed. What i said is that the toughest golds in GT5 are only obtained by memorizing the pattern that the programmer put in the algorithm, it could have been much more interesting if those golds could be obtained with talent and a little improvisation to even beat the gold with bigger margins, but that is impossible in GT5's toughest golds.

Again, if someone can beat the toughest golds by a one second margin or so, I will be plain wrong.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Why is this topic in the "Question and Answer" section? The Q&A section is supposed to be threads that can be posted as questions, for which other gamers provide answers. No offense.

 

[kanjifreak]

Why is this topic in the "Question and Answer" section? The Q&A section is supposed to be threads that can be posted as questions, for which other gamers provide answers. No offense.

My question is:

When will video games like GT5 evolve to the point in which talent can give you the prizes instead of sheer memorization of algorithms?

I didn't get offended.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

It is true that much of the stuff in the game is easy. Some is a bit harder and some a lot harder like the X1 challenge. The snow races under special events are very easy and the A-Spec races for the most part are very easy due to the fact that you can add soft race tires and run a very superior car in most of them.

The Historic race car event, the FGT event and the All stars event are much more balanced and some will find those to hard others will think even these are a bit to easy.

I like the game and in the A-Spec races it is easy to make them hard if that is what you want just like it is easy to make them easy if that is what you want.

What gets me is those who will take a Minolta with soft race tires up against a 250 hp production car with comfort tires and then complain that the race was to easy

 

[Troux]

You're oversimplifying...people don't memorize algorithms, they memorize racing lines and input. Ever watch Top gear when they have F1 racers as guest stars in their reasonably priced car? Those F1 drivers all seem to take a similar line according to Clarkson, and they all end up Very, VERY close. Just because the Stig's time wasn't beaten by a full second doesn't mean it's impossible. Several of the current gold challenges HAVE been beaten by a full second, and I think all of them will be ultimately. Some challenges are harder than others, and some are really hard. Smaller margin of error = smaller margin of success. I don't see why this is so hard to understand, especially since the game doesn't require you to do ANY of those tests to give you the ending credits.

The game would lose value if it didn't have a handful of extremely difficult challenges. The way it is now, it applies to casual racers (arcade mode), the somewhat competitive (GT Life's A Spec), the lazy (B Spec), the challenge-seekers (Licenses and Special Events), the skilled challenge-seekers (Bronze/silver/gold tiers), and the ultra hardcore (All golds, X1 challenge, Mission 34, etc.).

I would be pretty annoyed if I was incredibly fast and didn't get any extra incentive for it. Ask around here and see if the guys with golds and carbon X1s are good racers or just gamers with a good memory of algorithms. When the X1 challenge was first revealed, people thought Bronze was for the elite, and gold was as likely to happen as the car seeing production. Several people have golded it, and I (far from elite) got it with some practice. Not something I'd call memorization, either. I learned the track, I learned the car, and I learned where I was slow.

 

[speedy_2]

I agree. I see a lot of people more concerned with XP and buying cars. Even someone said that an endurance race was a "waste" because it didn't level them up immediately. Do people really only play GT5 now to quickly accumulate XP and cars?

 

[kanjifreak]

You're oversimplifying...people don't memorize algorithms, they memorize racing lines and input. Ever watch Top gear when they have F1 racers as guest stars in their reasonably priced car? Those F1 drivers all seem to take a similar line according to Clarkson, and they all end up Very, VERY close. Just because the Stig's time wasn't beaten by a full second doesn't mean it's impossible. Several of the current gold challenges HAVE been beaten by a full second, and I think all of them will be ultimately. Some challenges are harder than others, and some are really hard. Smaller margin of error = smaller margin of success. I don't see why this is so hard to understand, especially since the game doesn't require you to do ANY of those tests to give you the ending credits.

The game would lose value if it didn't have a handful of extremely difficult challenges. The way it is now, it applies to casual racers (arcade mode), the somewhat competitive (GT Life's A Spec), the lazy (B Spec), the challenge-seekers (Licenses and Special Events), the skilled challenge-seekers (Bronze/silver/gold tiers), and the ultra hardcore (All golds, X1 challenge, Mission 34, etc.).

I would be pretty annoyed if I was incredibly fast and didn't get any extra incentive for it. Ask around here and see if the guys with golds and carbon X1s are good racers or just gamers with a good memory of algorithms. When the X1 challenge was first revealed, people thought Bronze was for the elite, and gold was as likely to happen as the car seeing production. Several people have golded it, and I (far from elite) got it with some practice. Not something I'd call memorization, either. I learned the track, I learned the car, and I learned where I was slow.

I totally agree with your comments, but we are talking about different things.

Again, my only point is that the HARDEST golds in the game must be obtained by following the pattern set by the algorithms with a marginal margin of "error".

Now, for GT5 "error" means not following said predetermined pattern. If there were a margin or elements or situations for taking risks, improvise or simply solve an unexpected happening to get those HARDEST golds, the game would have evolved a million years, and would be way more interesting.

Do you agree me with on that?

I totally agree with your comments, but we are talking about different things.

Again, my only point is that the HARDEST golds in the game must be obtained by following the pattern set by the algorithms with a marginal margin of "error".

Now, for GT5 "error" means not following said predetermined pattern. If there were a margin or elements or situations for taking risks, improvise or simply solve an unexpected happening to get those HARDEST golds, the game would have evolved a million years, and would be way more interesting.

Do you agree me with on that?

In other words, silver should be obtained by following the predetermined pattern, and gold should be obtained by doing better than the predetermined pattern with utmost talent buy going beyond memorization and finding a way to beat the predetermined pattern.

Am I making myself clear?

 

[Troux]

There are simply the best ways around certain corners. Personally, I've yet to find a gold challenge that didn't offer a bit of variaton, and this forum proves it even more. I've seen a lot of people posting up tips on how to beat a certain track or challenge, and much of it will be the same that I used, and some will be different. No, I don't agree that the gold challenges are formulaic. They require precision, and sometimes have the quickest path pinned down better than others, but there's still a margin there, and the hardcore players are going to prove that on their Youtube channels. How about giving the game more than a month before you start calling things impossible?

The game has a little something for everyone (really, REALLY hard to do in a game), and that's why we've had so many threads like this, because we have every type of gamer here. We've got the hardcore racers that only play video games when there's a steering wheel, who think the whole leveling and B Spec thing is BS. We've got gamers who are used to RPGs where all you have to do is put in the time and you can unlock everything in the game. We've got long-time GT fans who just want a wide open world of all of their cars and tracks attainable, but with a challenge (licenses) with some close races along the way. We've got the hardcore GT racers who have the skill to get all of the golds with some time.

Then we've got the OP here, who is like me, and probably the majority. Appreciative of the depth, developed from the challenge, but not in the elite few that chase down all of the golds. You need to realize that the whole game may not be for you. This game isn't about collecting all the emeralds, and you don't need all gold trophies (or any!) to enjoy it. Play it the way you like, and just realize that some parts of the game aren't for you. I know I got about a third of the way through the GT4 missions and thought, "Some hardcore players are going to love this part! I'm out!"

 

[RacingManiac]

I dunno about patterns though. I've read a lot of those guides about passing those one-lap/2 lap race where you are suppose to pass car A at turn X on the inside or car B at turn Y on the outside, and for most of them the way I did it seems to be totally different. Yes the AI cars seems to run their script pretty much to a tee everytime you redo an event, but I don't think there is only one set solution to that problem...

 

[kanjifreak]

There are simply the best ways around certain corners. Personally, I've yet to find a gold challenge that didn't offer a bit of variaton, and this forum proves it even more. I've seen a lot of people posting up tips on how to beat a certain track or challenge, and much of it will be the same that I used, and some will be different. No, I don't agree that the gold challenges are formulaic. They require precision, and sometimes have the quickest path pinned down better than others, but there's still a margin there, and the hardcore players are going to prove that on their Youtube channels. How about giving the game more than a month before you start calling things impossible?

The game has a little something for everyone (really, REALLY hard to do in a game), and that's why we've had so many threads like this, because we have every type of gamer here. We've got the hardcore racers that only play video games when there's a steering wheel, who think the whole leveling and B Spec thing is BS. We've got gamers who are used to RPGs where all you have to do is put in the time and you can unlock everything in the game. We've got long-time GT fans who just want a wide open world of all of their cars and tracks attainable, but with a challenge (licenses) with some close races along the way. We've got the hardcore GT racers who have the skill to get all of the golds with some time.

Then we've got the OP here, who is like me, and probably the majority. Appreciative of the depth, developed from the challenge, but not in the elite few that chase down all of the golds. You need to realize that the whole game may not be for you. This game isn't about collecting all the emeralds, and you don't need all gold trophies (or any!) to enjoy it. Play it the way you like, and just realize that some parts of the game aren't for you. I know I got about a third of the way through the GT4 missions and thought, "Some hardcore players are going to love this part! I'm out!"

Well, I do get the golds, and I'm having all I've tried, my only point is that it seems impossible to win the hardest golds by a margin of a second or so because the predetermined pattern just won't let you go that far.

Let's wait as you suggest, and we'll see. If a guy gets the Vettel Golds by a one second margin or something like that, then I was wrong from the beginning, and will start trying harder.

Let's see...

 

[Troux]

I, too have sometimes felt that I was just running the same path over and over until I got each part perfect. It may feel like simply perfecting a pattern in your shoes, but look online at videos and advice and you'll almost certainly find variation in the ways its done. Countless times I've found people getting faster times than me, while I would still be faster than them through certain parts.

To get a gold on the X1 races, you have two laps to get in front of a a car that started sooner than you, ahead of you, and is driven VERY quickly. In Monza, I could pass him by turn 5 on the first lap, which isn't necessary to gold the challenge, but I knew that I was DAMN GOOD at that first sector, it's the rest that I need some input to get through. If I ran both laps with my first sector looking like that, and other sectors looking like some of the guys on this forum, there would easily be a 1 second margin.

Again, have a handful of F1 drivers do a time attack lap. No other cars, just them and the track. It's HIGHLY likely they'll get within 1 second of each other on any track under 2 minutes or so. Would you draw the same conclusion about their jobs being mindless memorization then? They do it over and over, and eventually going any faster becomes a daunting task. That's what's required to get the golds, and that's why I'm going to ignore some. Why don't you do the same?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

My question is:

When will video games like GT5 evolve to the point in which talent can give you the prizes instead of sheer memorization of algorithms?

I'm not sure what you mean. I would say it has been my talent (what talent I have) which has rewarded me with the few challenges I've completed so far in GT5. There is some variation with these challenges, and skill does come into play. There is also some spontaneity involved.

I golded the Top Gear VW Bus challenge, for instance; tried it many times till I finished with a gold. Each time, I tackled it a little differently, each time, my skills were involved.

I would agree with your opening post though, even though I'm not seeing where a simple question was formed. It sucks when those of us who are more experienced go around saying "oh, what's the matter, that was so easy!" That is pretty annoying.

I didn't get offended.

Thank you.