The Bowe Bergdahl Story

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I'm surprised there isn't already a thread about this; it's a fascinating story both humanly and politically.

Now that the veil of secrecy has been lifted there's an interesting account from an ex-marine who is now a trainee writer. In that, as I'm sure we already know, he asserts that Bergdahl made good on his promise to "walk to Pakistan" and simply deserted his post (original Daily Beast article).

The captor intercepts suggest that they actually grabbed him while he was having a ****... which would also explain why he'd removed some of his equipment I guess.

Now I see that the American media seems to be splitting along political lines, even the father's beard (a very clever bit of thinking from him) seems to be under criticism.

If the guy did desert from the unit due to the conditions that other members describe then, whatever happened, he should eventually be disciplined once his physical and mental health have been somewhat repaired.

I'm still not sure about the desertion story though; it all seems to come from that single ex-marine-turned-writer... who probably had the book ready for the day that Berdahl was found dead. Finding him alive and, potentially brain-fried, well, that still works. Get the book out early enough and it'll be fine ;)

The final interesting twist is the death of the author of the Rolling Stone article, does anyone have any spicey sources for that? :D

EDIT: This seems to carrry the overall theme (link). A quote from the Sergeant so villified in other reports of the platoon, quotes from soldiers who supposedly say "we don't know if he was deserted or taken" but then supposedly say "yeah, he deserted!".

Finally there's the army's own account that he was relieved from duty and then went missing. Perhaps that's the point where he put down his weapon and armour and clapped on the dunny?

The article above suggests he walked away while on active sentry duty... that's a new bit to me but seems to be spread around many of the reports of the last few days.
 
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I've seen an article on RT on that subject and there they said he, Bergdahl, was sitting around a corner when 'they' (not the army) attacked the post. He had no gun on him so they took him. They picked up radiomessages, the army was looking for him and that's why they thought he was big shot. After that it was asked if they wanted to make a video to announce to all of Afghanistan that they had an American.

Some were willing to dismiss that document in hopes that the truth would come out about a soldier who they now fear is being hailed as a hero, while the men who lost their lives looking for him are ignored.

I hope this doesn't gets the base of the discussion...

"I challenge any one of you who label him a traitor to spend 5 years in captivity with the Taliban or Haqqani, then come back and accuse him again. Whatever his intent when he walked away or was captured, he has more than paid for it."

This is pretty much how I feel about it at this moment..
 
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It all boils down to who do you believe, the men who actually served with the man, who say that Bergdahl was a little "testy" with authority, in particular with his SSgt, or the Obama Administration, who, like the Benghazi scandal, had Susan Rice go on the Sunday Talk shows to spread misinformation.

One side note, the administration were going to release those five men anyways. It was just politically convenient (as it is the Mid Terms, among other reasons) to release them now and get the AWOL solider back.

Let's not forget about Bergdahl's father in this equation as well. That man follows active terrorists on twitter, and I wouldn't be surprised that he read from a script that the Taliban gave him while he is in the Rose Garden.
 
It all boils down to who do you believe, the men who actually served with the man, who say that Bergdahl was a little "testy" with authority, in particular with his SSgt, or the Obama Administration, who, like the Benghazi scandal, had Susan Rice go on the Sunday Talk shows to spread misinformation.

Exactly, the ones who served with him told a tale of the most awful mismanagement in the unit (in one of the above links), this seems to be getting covered up again now.

The ones who were in the same battalion (although not the same unit) and who seem to be giving the harshest opinion admit not knowing him, they're mentioned in the later report with the bastardised "we don't know if he was kidnapped...he definitely deserted" quotes though. Some of them don't actually know where he was when he went missing, that gives their testimony a slight flavour of dunnies in itself :)

Very interesting :D

Let's not forget about Bergdahl's father in this equation as well.

You got kids, dude? I guess not... I'd move in with Osama bin Laden and prime his grenades if it would save one of my kids.

That man follows active terrorists on twitter,

You didn't say that for no reason... but what on Earth are you trying to say? That he sympathises with them because occasionally he sees 140 characters from them? That's pretty cross-eyed :D

and I wouldn't be surprised that he read from a script that the Taliban gave him while he is in the Rose Garden.

You know the world ISN'T actually a war film, right? ;)
 
It was a stupid move by the Obama administration to release five Taliban leaders in exchange for an unimportant sergeant, who may be a deserter. You simply can't justify that move, no matter what conditions Bergdahl was in.
 
It was a stupid move by the Obama administration to release five Taliban leaders in exchange for an unimportant sergeant, who may be a deserter. You simply can't justify that move, no matter what conditions Bergdahl was in.

I think UK troops see it differently, we never ever leave a man behind. I think we're ahead of the game a bit in understanding what happens to the human brain under pressure and that "training training training" can be quickly overruled.

Interesting that you weigh his worth by his rank although at least you admit he may not have deserted.
 
So hypothetically, if any of these Taliban men go against their word and end up attacking US or US based interests, was this still a good move?
 
So hypothetically, if any of these Taliban men go against their word and end up attacking US or US based interests, was this still a good move?

Was it a bad move to get one of your soldiers back alive? No, never. If he's serviceable then he's a greater asset against future attacks if he's used properly.

Guess what, every Taliban member involved in negotiations or handovers with your gov, my gov, they've probably all gone on to plot against us. War is hell, remember.
 
I think UK troops see it differently, we never ever leave a man behind. I think we're ahead of the game a bit in understanding what happens to the human brain under pressure and that "training training training" can be quickly overruled.

Interesting that you weigh his worth by his rank although at least you admit he may not have deserted.

The Taliban leaders we released will fight again in a year after leaving Qatar (or possibly sooner). They and the men they train have the potential to kill hundreds of NATO soldiers and thousands of civilians.

Releasing those men isn't worth saving any one person from captivity.
 
I can't agree, I didn't realise the Americans worked that way. In European armies we don't leave any man behind, whatever the cost, and certainly not judged by their 'rank'. It's just how we are :D

5 fighters make little difference in the scheme of things. 5 more or 5 fewer isn't really a noticeable difference. I think the American fear of terrorism is overrated, you've never experienced any sustained home campaign yet, if your mainstream media is to be believed, you're under constant attack.

I wonder if that's why the private-agenda stations (like Fox) are making such a big deal out of just 5 guys? And isn't a marine 5 times more well-trained-and-equipped than a Taliban fighter? There's an equilibrium for you :D
 
The administration attempted to use this story as a little good publicity. Something that everyone could get together and say "Wow look how good they are" and yet it has the opposite effect. Instead of everyone being happy, this idiot and his family will now be sent death threats and other similar things for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile these five Taliban will be plotting their revenge, after all who wouldn't after being indefinitely detained?
 
The administration attempted to use this story as a little good publicity. Something that everyone could get together and say "Wow look how good they are" and yet it has the opposite effect. Instead of everyone being happy, this idiot and his family will now be sent death threats and other similar things for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile these five Taliban will be plotting their revenge, after all who wouldn't after being indefinitely detained?

Why does this come back to the Administration all the time? Is he a human whose life is worth the same as yours or not? You only need to answer the second question.
 
Why does this come back to the Administration all the time? Is he a human whose life is worth the same as yours or not? You only need to answer the second question.
Yes it is, which is why it's so despicable they would spin the story. They could have kept this hush hush, but instead they decided to gamble human lives for publicity and it backfired. All they have to deal with is some news and media. This kid and his entire family have to live the rest of their lives wondering if some crazy is going to bust down their door and murder him like thousands of people have already said they wanted to.

These Taliban guys are likely to get drone striked the second they try something. Right now the enemy isn't the Taliban, it's the US government for not caring whom they destroy in their quest to look good.
 
Yes it is, which is why it's so despicable they would spin the story. They could have kept this hush hush, but instead they decided to gamble human lives for publicity and it backfired. All they have to deal with is some news and media. This kid and his entire family have to live the rest of their lives wondering if some crazy is going to bust down their door and murder him like thousands of people have already said they wanted to.

These Taliban guys are likely to get drone striked the second they try something. Right now the enemy isn't the Taliban, it's the US government for not caring whom they destroy in their quest to look good.

I see more what you're saying now :)

Still, his kidnapping was high-profile at the time but would, presumably, have faded from the news (as so many do) without the intervention of Berdahl's family. They kept it in the news, they tried to engage with their son's captors, they did everything I would have done. In fact, I suspect you might have done that too.

Given the profile of the case what should the CiC have done? Pretend that they never got him back? Of course not. And so they make press releases, and every government in the world spins those at least twice before they make daylight ;)
 
I see more what you're saying now :)

Still, his kidnapping was high-profile at the time but would, presumably, have faded from the news (as so many do) without the intervention of Berdahl's family. They kept it in the news, they tried to engage with their son's captors, they did everything I would have done. In fact, I suspect you might have done that too.

Given the profile of the case what should the CiC have done? Pretend that they never got him back? Of course not. And so they make press releases, and every government in the world spins those at least twice before they make daylight ;)
True true. Even so though many people here didn't know about the story until the official release of information. The media really doesn't report anything here... :indiff:
 
True true. Even so though many people here didn't know about the story until the official release of information. The media really doesn't report anything here... :indiff:

Ah... that does explain a lot. I guess if the story was new to me I'd be influenced by my first sight of it. It's had a reasonable amount of coverage here in the last 4 or 5 years, not constant by any means but the family's campaign has had lots of media attention.

Given the early "deserter" rumours (which I accept may or may not be true, but I'd urge people to consider the circumstances) I wonder if the US media didn't like the story that much. Although that would suggest some bias on their part, I'd hesitate to accuse them of such a thing :D
 
I've been following this story for a minute now. And this thread for just a moment, and just like in the news, I think there is confusion here with what happened. Teneightyone, I am a vet. I was in the us army, I can assure you, we are trained no man left behind. However. I happen to know a fellow soldier from that unit, that was deployed with him. From his account of Bergdahl, and that day, he deserted. Further, there were some investigators out there tracking the group that had him(imagine a haliburton type company that gets info instead of killing). They have evidence of him chumming it up with his "captives." Playing soccer, carrying a weapon. Stuff you normally won't do as a pow. This though came from a fox news report, so it's validity is questionable.
Now, as a soldier, I can tell you, in no point in my career or anyone I know, did any one of us ever feel it a good idea to throw down our weapon and vest in hostile territory. Its just in no way conducive to a long and healthy life. Besides all stories you hear throughout training about how you will get your head lobbed off if you are caught.
I can only speak for my experiences And what I've heard though. What happened to him is being investigated. I'll leave it up to the investigators and the DoD to find the truth and levy justice as needed.
 
@Rallywagon, good write up :) I always knew that the US leave no man behind, I was really jabbing at the perceived suggestion that this guy should have been.

I think it seems likely he deserted but, as you say, he needs to face a proper investigation and justice. Firstly he needs to be 'fixed' in whatever way the medics think best.

What's worrying me is the seemingly increasing propensity for the press (and some unthinking public) to draw Dem/Rep lines in the sand and use the whole thing as political spin, the irony of the Anti-Obama-Spin spin is excruciating :)

From the soldiers I know (and I suspect you're no different) they have their own personal views (like anyone) but leave them behind when there's a job to do. Full respect, it's a job I know I couldn't do.

What's interesting in this case that some of the sources close to Bergdahl describe a pretty dysfunctional command structure in the unit. My own feeling is that Bergdahl was more mentally vulnerable than some (doesn't stop someone being a good soldier, just gives them a different snapping point). Given the things he's on record as saying and doing one wonders if he should have remained on post at all, perhaps that in itself is a sign of a unit whose commanders aren't functioning properly either through overload or simple fault. The investigation needs to be wide, and thorough, and fair for every one.
 
Here is the link to the story I mentioned above. Sorry it's not formatted into the post better, my phone access the forum aren't agreeing.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/06/exclusive-bergdahl-declared-jihad-secret-documents-show/

Anyway, the article is kinda a mess. And I am surely skeptical. But I'm sure these will be things investigated.

If that's true then it could well be Stockholm Syndrome. Arguably it could also be "staying alive". But yes, a proper investigation is needed.
 
Spotted this article, it's as polarised as any other part of the current debate (which seems to have had a reset of 2 years' worth of fact) but an interesting read*.

The "n....." tweet has to be fake though presumably... wouldn't Twitter have closed his account down at that point?


* Mein Kampf is an interesting read, as are the ID plates in lifts (elevators). Don't get too excited :D
 
Spotted this article, it's as polarised as any other part of the current debate (which seems to have had a reset of 2 years' worth of fact) but an interesting read*.

The "n....." tweet has to be fake though presumably... wouldn't Twitter have closed his account down at that point?


* Mein Kampf is an interesting read, as are the ID plates in lifts (elevators). Don't get too excited :D

Looks like the media has chosen their own truth, reminds me of the Snowden situation..
 
Yes it is, which is why it's so despicable they would spin the story. They could have kept this hush hush, but instead they decided to gamble human lives for publicity and it backfired. All they have to deal with is some news and media. This kid and his entire family have to live the rest of their lives wondering if some crazy is going to bust down their door and murder him like thousands of people have already said they wanted to.

These Taliban guys are likely to get drone striked the second they try something. Right now the enemy isn't the Taliban, it's the US government for not caring whom they destroy in their quest to look good.

A couple things here:

1. Do you have any evidence that they "spun" the story, rather than simply told it? How do you know that the official account of this situation isn't factual?

2. On the surface, I'll grant your point that keeping the story quiet may have been a better choice. But think about his family, particularly his father. Do you really think he would have kept it all quiet? The story would have gotten out sooner or later. Isn't it better for the DoD to release an official statement instead?
 
A couple things here:

1. Do you have any evidence that they "spun" the story, rather than simply told it? How do you know that the official account of this situation isn't factual?
Spun is the wrong word... They could have kept quiet though.
2. On the surface, I'll grant your point that keeping the story quiet may have been a better choice. But think about his family, particularly his father. Do you really think he would have kept it all quiet? The story would have gotten out sooner or later. Isn't it better for the DoD to release an official statement instead?
The father doesn't need to know the details of the trade, only that they got him home.
 
Spun is the wrong word... They could have kept quiet though.

I kind of asked the question rhetorically before... but now I'll ask it properly :D

...his kidnapping was high-profile at the time but would, presumably, have faded from the news (as so many do) without the intervention of Berdahl's family. They kept it in the news, they tried to engage with their son's captors, they did everything I would have done. In fact, I suspect you might have done that too.

Given the profile of the case what should the CiC have done? Pretend that they never got him back?

Unless the American media somehow squashed this story all the way through (see the Russian Crisis thread for more on 'state' media!) how would they have kept quiet?

The father doesn't need to know the details of the trade, only that they got him home.

Nobody did, but it was the media that asked the question publically, the Commander chose to give the information.

In hindsight it was a very very good move, the video of the ground exchange sent a very clear message to the kidnappers and those who would be like them.

It seems that most countries are reporting the human, political and factual story. US news, even now, still seems to be concentrating on the beard, the trade-off and Obama.

The desertion (or potential of) is being spun one particular way. It ignores the FBI's wiretap submission with the kidnapper's own description of the abduction and ignores the evidence from people in his unit. The prefer to listen to the guy just from the battalion who's publishing a book for profit. That's not very good journalism, in fact it's really just copy writing.

I've already said that I'm inclined to believe he plumb-straight deserted or manipulated a kidnap situation. The second might sound incredible but the evidence from unit members speaks of an atmosphere of intimidation, incompetence and bullying.

Most first year teaching students would recognise the things that Bergdahl is on record as saying as indicators of increasing mental 'weakness'. For a professional army not to be looking out for that, it's worrying. Not surprising though, given the evidence about the unit.
 
:D
In hindsight it was a very very good move, the video of the ground exchange sent a very clear message to the kidnappers and those who would be like them.
I'm not sure I agree. To me, the message is, kidnap a soldier and you can negotiate deals. Granted, this keeps our people alive, but there is a reason we have a "don't negotiate" policy.
It seems that most countries are reporting the human, political and factual story. US news, even now, still seems to be concentrating on the beard, the trade-off and Obama.

The desertion (or potential of) is being spun one particular way. It ignores the FBI's wiretap submission with the kidnapper's own description of the abduction and ignores the evidence from people in his unit. The prefer to listen to the guy just from the battalion who's publishing a book for profit. That's not very good journalism, in fact it's really just copy writing.
real journalism died in America several years ago. All we have now is a bunch of egomaniacs that care more about propagating their own opinions as facts and causing as much of a sensation as possible to get ratings. No one in mainstream media in the us is really concerned with actual "non-biased" news reporting and fact finding. America is an oligarchy, not a democracy, and our media portrays this well.

I've already said that I'm inclined to believe he plumb-straight deserted or manipulated a kidnap situation. The second might sound incredible but the evidence from unit members speaks of an atmosphere of intimidation, incompetence and bullying.
It's hard to say without being in the unit. As an outsider looking in, many of the things in the army may seem like intimidation and bullying. Try your hand at basic training. Most people would say the same. But when you make your living fighting wars, you can't be trained with a gentle hand exactly. If you can't handle the pressure of someone yelling things at you, how can you be expected to handle the pressure of someone shooting at you? Again, I can't speak for the unit He was attached too, and incompetence is always a real risk.
Most first year teaching students would recognise the things that Bergdahl is on record as saying as indicators of increasing mental 'weakness'. For a professional army not to be looking out for that, it's worrying. Not surprising though, given the evidence about the unit.
This is a bit of a touchy subject. Unless you are psy ops, you don't get much training in psychology. Mostly just suicide prevention stuff, look at all the issues with PTSD in the states and the lack of good care. We aren't really trained to be sensitive to feelings. Kinda the opposite. Often the Chaplin is the only "shrink" available to a soldier. I do believe this is something that needs to be corrected. But it's hard given the climate of an army and their purpose. It's a man's world, and seeing a psychologist is seen as being weak, and can even have some negative effects on your career.
 
I'm not sure I agree. To me, the message is, kidnap a soldier and you can negotiate deals.

If he was kidnapped then I do agree about the overall message.

However, if he wasn't then why not use a humanitarian case to open dialogue? War is hell but it's people too and sometimes you do play the short game a way you don't like in order to open a longer game.

The video itself seems to show a party waiting to talk with the grab team, but rather than engage in dialogue on the ground the grabs just... well, grab and go :) It would seem to me to be a little naive to say "ah yes, but we had men and a helicopter on the ground so they just had to go!". That's true at a basic operational level but the long-term dialogue seems to have been more complex with each side having to give and show trust.

Otherwise he'd have been rescued SAS-style en-route to the grab by "locals" with alarmingly access to hidden heavy weaponry.

This case, like so many, doesn't just stand at its face value... unless you're some of the most popular US news channels, in which case you can spend 2 minutes working up a thyrotic voice over explaining what seems easily obvious if you don't think about it :D

Unless you are psy ops, you don't get much training in psychology. Mostly just suicide prevention stuff, look at all the issues with PTSD in the states and the lack of good care. We aren't really trained to be sensitive to feelings. Kinda the opposite. Often the Chaplin is the only "shrink" available to a soldier. I do believe this is something that needs to be corrected. But it's hard given the climate of an army and their purpose. It's a man's world, and seeing a psychologist is seen as being weak, and can even have some negative effects on your career.

That's a good point and the situation you describe is probably true of many armies, the British Army has had similar problems for sure. The difference I think is that a God Man isn't required to do the healing, that would be a bit of an insult to any trained soldier's intelligence. I've met some rock-hard soldiers over the years but I can honestly say I've never met a stupid one. No-one wants them, they become security guards in Asda (Walmart).

Still, regardless of where the fault lies in the unit being unprepared to deal with psychological issues, it seems clear to me that Bergdahl exhibited strong issues very clearly. Whatever the reason for that it's not in the remit (or ability) of the 'patient' to handle their operational placement in such circumstances, a failure to deal with such a soldier on active duty is a failure by the unit commanders.

I'd hope that by the time the commanders reached their rank they'd have enough experience (psychology aside) to recognise certain key signs in their cohort, even if they were unaware of the academically-described reasons.
 
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