The Carmagedonn Thread: FCA and "Consolidation"

[Tornado]

Based on Press' success at Toyota, I wouldn't be surprised if they promote him to lead the company. That being said, Fiat has done some rather silly things in the past when it comes to management, so I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

 

[Sniffs]

I'm crossposting something else from what I said on a similar post elsewhere.

I'm afraid that this bankruptcy will shove the D/C/J dealerships over 100 miles away, and put them only in huge metropolitain cities. I don't wanna have to drive to Pittsburgh to find a frickin JEEP!
and I don't think people will care if suddenly a Fiat dealership pops up. the younger generation will have never heard of them (Fiat stopped US sales in 83), and the older generations will only remember the piles of crap they sent over LAST time...

 

[Jim Prower]

Sniffs, I really dont' think so.

For one thing, FIAT has been all over the news as of late. Given that, I think "Fix It Again, Tony" will only apply to old grumps who won't change their opinion for any reason. And they probably already own a Ford or Chevrolet Truck, a Buick Park Avenue, or a Mercury Grand Marquis.

((Apologies, sir, I wasn't referring to you directly. Rather, the senior population of this region.))

and, remember, The Dodge Omni that came out at that time was...well, an instructor of mine had one and it chewed up two trannies within as many months.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm afraid that this bankruptcy will shove the D/C/J dealerships over 100 miles away, and put them only in huge metropolitain cities. I don't wanna have to drive to Pittsburgh to find a frickin JEEP!

Why would you think that? As long as your local dealer operated smartly, there is no reason for them to fail. Furthermore, if Chrysler-FIAT is going to actively remove dealerships from their network, it seems rather likely that they would take down redundant dealers. So, for example, here in Grand Rapids we have four major Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealers in the area, and I could easily see at least one being removed entirely because it is only several miles away from one of the same size.

and I don't think people will care if suddenly a Fiat dealership pops up. the younger generation will have never heard of them (Fiat stopped US sales in 83), and the older generations will only remember the piles of crap they sent over LAST time...

Young people have heard of them. Their cars have been showing up in videogames and movies for years, and furthermore, that shouldn't have any major effect on sales. I think you could have made the same argument that young people didn't know what a MINI was when they showed up, but instead, their operation has been massively successful in the US in a very, very short time.

 

[CyborgGT]

Well, the Viper plant's being shut down:

As part of its well-publicized bankruptcy and restructuring, Chrysler will permanently shutter six of its facilities, one of which is the only plant that builds the Dodge Viper. That’s on top of word that all Chrysler factories and assembly plants will be put on hold for 60 days while the automaker attempts to emerge from what executives are calling a “surgical” bankruptcy.

Despite the White House’s assurance that no plants would be closed during the bankruptcy, court papers filed early this morning in New York indicate that Chrysler will close its Sterling Heights Assembly in Sterling Heights, Michigan, Detroit Axle, Conner Avenue in Detroit, St. Louis North Assembly in Fenton, Missouri, Kenosha Engine in Wisconsin and Twinsburg Stamping in Ohio.

Sterling Heights Assembly currently builds the Dodge Avenger and Chrysler Sebring, Conner Avenue hand builds the Dodge Viper and the St Louis North builds the Dodge Ram. Some of the Detroit-area jobs will be transferred to the Jefferson North Assembly Plant that builds the Jeep Grand Cherokee.

The Sterling Heights and Detroit Axle plants will be leased back to Chrysler until they close by next December.

The plant closures ensure that an Avenger/Sebring replacement will be built elsewhere within about 18 months. Rams are also assembled in Saltillo, Mexico, and Warren, Michigan, and with sales and market share up, production at those plants will likely be kicked into high gear.

The Viper’s future with any automaker was in doubt given the automaker hasn’t announced a potential buyer for the sports car line. Chrysler parent company Cerberus was planning to kill off the Viper before 2011, anyway, so the V10-powered car’s demise does not come as a surprise, even if it is a little earlier than had been previously indicated.

source

 

[Jim Prower]

I can hope it comes back someday.

 

[YSSMAN]

Seeing as how the Circuit still exists, and the fact that the Italians probably don't like having the ol' snake around, it could be the end for the Viper as we know it. Not a huge deal though, I think that if they do liquidate, chances are that the brand will be sold off to someone who cares, and who will ultimately keep the good cars coming.

I dunno, I guess I still see the Circuit as a pretty cool car if it comes out at a reasonable price (and a decent range/recharge time).

Although this was an interesting photochop:

Shove the Voltec technology under the Sky and "dress appropriately," you've got yourself an interesting Tesla and Circuit competitor.

 

[Jim Prower]

I really don't like the idea of an all-electric sporting vehicle. Just doesn't seem right to me

 

[CyborgGT]

The only thing I have against electric cars is the lack of an exhaust note. I know, you can buy synthesized audio kits, but it's just not the same. The quietness is even arguably unsafe for other drivers.

 

[YSSMAN]

Some news stories that I thought were interesting today...

Chrysler Tried to Merge with EVERYONE

On the list of suitors?

• General Motors
• Nissan
• Toyota (Letting them use excess capacity, co-develop hybrids)
• Honda (Rejected within one business day)
• GAZ (The people who brought the Soviets the Volga)
• Hyundai
• Magna
• Tata

Wow. Guess they were rather desperate....

FIAT Products Could Show Up in as Little as 18 Months for Chrysler

Not a big surprise, chances are the 500 will be first.

Ford Out-Sells Toyota in April, Head Explodes

Go Fusion, GO GO GO!

 

[Philly]

Why would you think that? As long as your local dealer operated smartly, there is no reason for them to fail. Furthermore, if Chrysler-FIAT is going to actively remove dealerships from their network, it seems rather likely that they would take down redundant dealers. So, for example, here in Grand Rapids we have four major Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealers in the area, and I could easily see at least one being removed entirely because it is only several miles away from one of the same size.

I'm guessing they'll also combine the brands. There are separate Chrysler and Dodge/Jeep dealers in Holland, which would probably be combined. And same goes with GM.

Young people have heard of them. Their cars have been showing up in videogames and movies for years, and furthermore, that shouldn't have any major effect on sales. I think you could have made the same argument that young people didn't know what a MINI was when they showed up, but instead, their operation has been massively successful in the US in a very, very short time.

Throw an ad or two into the Superbowl, and they'll be well on everybody's radar.

Go Fusion, GO GO GO!

Funny, I had heard that Ford sales were a lot lower than expected for the month of April (or Q1). I wonder what that means for Toyota...

I wonder if we're going to be seeing Toyota and Honda collapsing like GM has done.

 

[Jim Prower]

Not immediately. I'd guess in a few years.

Honestly, I can kind of see the writing on the wall for Toyota. They've got Benz syndrome: too many cars for their own good. And that's US market...has anyone been on their JDM website lately? talk about redundancy....

 

[Sniffs]

Yss: the dealer network around here is thin ENOUGH. the big cluster of dealerships we DO have are almost all Ford in one place, exclusivly GM almost everywhere else. and they'll be terminated (the last time I stopped at Stoltz C/J I was looking at the last of the NEONS, for cripe's sake!) I know of only two D/C/J dealerships, the above mentioned Stoltz group, and Kelley C/J down in brookville. and they're just gonna go bye-bye. I'm not holding my breath. i KNOW the nearest econo-box dealership will end up somewhere 75 miles south of me.

 

[Philly]

Not immediately. I'd guess in a few years.

Only if the economy keeps up the way it is. But I heard on CNN (I was bored at the airport) that we were starting to see signs of recovery, and I doubt they'd continue to topple when the economy is doing better.

Although this does make me wonder: How much of this mess is due to poor product, and how much is due to the nature of a big bureaucracy and the costs associated to a multinational corporation with fluctuating currencies?

Because even Toyota is seeing losses that have to be hurting it quite a bit, yet they're doing so much better than GM.

 

[YSSMAN]

The question is whether or not Toyota will continue to do well in the long-term. I do somewhat worry about them suffering from the "GM-effect" (ie, too big for their britches), eventually. As for what is the primary cause of the non-sales, I think it depends on what company you're looking at. For someone like Toyota, it is definitely people not having money... While at Chrysler, its definitely poor products. For GM, it seems to be a mix of the two.

The main reason why Ford is likely seeing so much success hinges on the fact that they didn't take the bailout money, are building top-notch vehicles in terms of quality and refinement, and ultimately sell them to you at a "fair price." Sales aren't good, but they're good enough to keep them on the minds of the people. I very much wonder what the Fiesta will do later this year, especially considering how well the new Fusion is already doing.

...Throw the proposed "Cash for Clunkers" bill on there, I think you've got a case for a big increase in sales this summer.

 

[Philly]

Is sales the whole big issue for everybody though? Because I can't help but think that GM is just poorly organized in the RenCen, and probably their debts have reached a breaking point or something, of course in addition to poor sales.

My question is: Are Ford products really as good as they are made out to be? I'm sure they're good (as you've said), but are they possibly even better than Toyota or Honda? Because it would be very cool to see an American manufacturer back on top of the pile, even if it was Ford, which is a company I have never really felt anything for or against.

 

[Sniffs]

I don't think Toyota would suffer from "GM Syndrome"...if the Toyodas themselves are putting their hand back in, I'd expect to see a Paring down, as stated in an earlier thread. there's also the fact they'll have the Japanese outlook, rather than the american "make a buck, shut up the unions, and crank em on out" ideas.

unfortunately, they tried a "cash for clunkers" earlier...somewhere about the time I was a Junior in high school...the collector segment let off a collective scream of pain, as people started bringing in restorables to be thrown to the masher (Recycling wasn't the in thing, then). stuff like the remnant I'm driving now would be a decent candidate, but they don't salvage transferable parts or engines...they destroy the whole thing in one lump, and just take up landfill space

so far, ford is the only one coming off as the survivor...because the Company threw the FAMILY out for the most part. that may be what prevented ford from joining the other two in soon to be automotive heaven (in my opinion). the Focus, for example, never wanted to "move on" past it's first gen platform (here).

and I'm still chary about screwing over the UAW and other unions...it makes me think it'll provoke a revolution. must still have a bit of "reds under the beds" in my brain.

I personally think it may be the "spirit" involved in the cars. this is going to sound really weird to a lot of you guys, but I wanna explain this.

I've gone through a lot of vehicles over the years, and I would swear that there's something built into the cars A la "herbie". for some cockamamey reason, fords LIKE me, and tend to behave. it seems to be the reverse with GM products, and I didn't have my sole chrysler product long enough to form an opinion (having the HVAC literally seize hard on me in the off position, though, is not a good sign). I get absolutely nothing from Toyotas.

 

[Jim Prower]

I didn't say "GM," I said "Benz," but if they will pare down the lineup, (and make the 2.4 into a -GE engine, PLEASE,) they won't be bad off...and, yes, there is that Japanese way of doing things. 6-sigma, Quality management, and all that.

 

[YSSMAN]

Is sales the whole big issue for everybody though? Because I can't help but think that GM is just poorly organized in the RenCen, and probably their debts have reached a breaking point or something, of course in addition to poor sales.

Yes and no, because as you pointed out, GM was at the breaking point of poor management. I see Toyota crossing into that same problem area, depending of course on what kind of changes they decide to make right now versus further down the channel. I have a fair bit of confidence in the Toyota management that they will sort things out, but I believe it is going to require a cleansing of the model lineups, eventually.

My question is: Are Ford products really as good as they are made out to be? I'm sure they're good (as you've said), but are they possibly even better than Toyota or Honda?

In my opinion, yes, they're becoming better. Have a look at the 2010 Fusion, and it is absolutely amazing how well the car turned out, which only increases expectations for the Taurus and the Fiesta. For the most part, they are meeting and exceeding benchmarks created by the Japanese, and it seems fairly certain that this is something that will be here to stay.

 

[niky]

Is sales the whole big issue for everybody though? Because I can't help but think that GM is just poorly organized in the RenCen, and probably their debts have reached a breaking point or something, of course in addition to poor sales.

My question is: Are Ford products really as good as they are made out to be? I'm sure they're good (as you've said), but are they possibly even better than Toyota or Honda? Because it would be very cool to see an American manufacturer back on top of the pile, even if it was Ford, which is a company I have never really felt anything for or against.

Their global products certainly can compete... the Focus is a little porky, but it's better than the Mazda3, arguably almost as good as the Civic, and well above the rest of the class (including the disappointing new Corolla). The only problems it has is that its weight makes it uncompetitive in the fuel economy stakes.

The Mondeo is definitely well in the fight against the Accord.

Ford USA's products... well... the Escape is still a good car, just way outdated... which puts it near the bottom of the compact crossover heap, just above the Korean Tucson and Sportage, the new Expedition is actually kind of nice (shockingly... ) and doesn't feel as much a pile of soggy noodles as the old one did... though there are no global products you can compare that one to... It's the same old song-and-dance... Ford has a hit in America, then spends the next ten to twenty years milking it till everybody forgets what made the car good in the first place. (Escape, Mark I Focus, Ranger, etcetera...)

EDIT: Can't say much about the Fusion, as we don't get it here, but it's young enough to avoid Ford's problems with falling development curves.

Ford has good products in its European line-up, and whatever they've been doing with Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover and Jaguar since 2001, it's a lot better than what they did with them previously. They've been on an upswing, of late, tempered only by the fact that they could never fix their US operations completely.

 

[Northstar]

I think Ford is actually the second best brand out there right now next to Honda(They have so many products in areas other than automotive). Their designs are actually fairly good compared to the rest of the cars that are put out(minus there trucks which has to go to GM). I think not taking bail out money also helped their public image by saying they aren't an inch from collapsing. I think they will continue there ways recently and come out of the recession a winner.


Now only if we could get the European Focus in the states and replace our ugly one.

 

[JCE]

My question is: Are Ford products really as good as they are made out to be? I'm sure they're good (as you've said), but are they possibly even better than Toyota or Honda? Because it would be very cool to see an American manufacturer back on top of the pile, even if it was Ford, which is a company I have never really felt anything for or against.

Ford US has now finally started taking significant leaps forward. Ford US finally woke up and started taking more and more influence from Volvo and Mazda before they ditched them. The new Fusion and Taurus are pretty much spot on and the new F150 is definate gold minus the lack of a higher power V8 and EcoBoost. The Mustang will always be good and now with Ford and Lincoln being injected with EcoBoost things can only get better. Now Ford US needs to drop the EcoBoost I4 in the Focus, Escape, Mustang, Fusion, Taurus and even the new Fiesta. I like where Ford is heading, they are definately "moving forward"--no pun intended.

In my opinion, yes, they're becoming better. Have a look at the 2010 Fusion, and it is absolutely amazing how well the car turned out, which only increases expectations for the Taurus and the Fiesta. For the most part, they are meeting and exceeding benchmarks created by the Japanese, and it seems fairly certain that this is something that will be here to stay.

I would definately buy a Ford US product of any Toyota product at this point. There are only a small handful of Japanese vehicles I'd take over Fords now--and they have an Infiniti or GTR badge on them.

 

[Tornado]

Anyways, Toyota's problem of late as I see it seems to be crippling oversaturation. If memory serves, in one case they have 4 vehicles that essentially compete for the same market.

 

[Philly]

A couple news items from yesterday that might be worth noting:

The first signs of the effects bankruptcy will have on product are here.

I sure that we all could have seen it coming, but it is looking like Chrysler's updates and new debuts planned for 2010 and 2011 could be late. Hopefully the bankruptcy thing won't throw them too far off.

GM is starting to fare much better compared to the competition.

In terms of sales, it looks like GM is starting to show signs of recovery. At least, recovery for their more important brands. Saturn and Pontiac sales are still way down, I'm sure very much related to GM's decision to axe the brands. Toyota is still languishing way down in sales. And that just goes to show that nobody is immune. Toyota also has a pretty old lineup though, and GM, Ford and Honda are throwing some new, pretty decent products out there, which I'm sure helps them. I would guess that people are buying more cars than last month, which is a sign that things could be on their way to turning around.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, the delay in Chrysler products seemed like somewhat of an inevitability. I'm hoping that they're dumping what development dollars they do have into their EV program, but even then, that seems somewhat unlikely.

=-=-=-=-=

More news from the past few hours:

We Know What FIATs and Alfas We'll Be Getting

FIAT 500

FIAT Grande Punto

FIAT Panda (possibly with a Jeep version)

Alfa MiTo

Alfa Milano (something new?)


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Also:

Congress Has Reached a Deal on the "Cash for Clunkers" Program

How it works:

Drive A Car With an Average of 18 MPG?

• Trade in, buy a car with a 4 MPG increase, get a $3500 voucher
• Trade in, buy a car with a 10 MPG increase, get a $4500 voucher

Drive A Small Pickup or SUV That Gets Less Than 18 MPG?*

• Trade in, buy a truck with a 2 MPG increase, get a $3500 voucher
• Trade in, buy a truck with a 5 MPG increase, get a $4500 voucher

*New vehicle must get at least 18 MPG+

Drive A Large Medium-Duty Truck That Gets Less than 18 MPG?*

• Trade in, buy a truck with a 1 MPG increase, get a $3500 voucher
• Trade in, buy a truck with a 2 MPG increase, get a $4500 voucher

* New trucks getting at least 15 MPG are eligible

Drive A Huge-Ass Truck that Weighs Between 8,500-10,000 lbs and is a Pre-2002 Model?/B]*

• A purchase of any newer, small truck receives a $3500 voucher

*There are a limited number of vouchers available for this one

It'll be interesting to see A) if this passes and B) if it will help boost sales like it did in much of Europe.

 

[niky]

Signs of recovery meaning the sales tank is slowing up a bit? This might just reflect the fact that this same time last year, their numbers were already starting to go down compared to the others.

(these are adjusted numbers, thus, not accurate, but you get an idea)

At this same time last year, car sales were going up as truck sales were going down... so some people got a boost from consumers downsizing to "more efficient" cars. At this point, comparing to 08 sales is useless, as the market is trying to find its own level... instead of the alarmist "20-40%" less than last year screams, people should be looking at the month-to-month drop at this point, to see where the market will finally level out.

Not much else you can tell from it, really...

-

Alfas? Fiats? Sell in this environment? Maybe, but not much. Still, if you're a niche maker expanding while everyone else is going down, as Hyundai and VW have shown, it puts you in prime position to gain market share for the recovery.

Absolute sales numbers may come and go, but establishing market share is vital for long-term survival.

 

[YSSMAN]

That's why its so staggering to see Toyota posting massive 40% losses right now. I'm beginning to wonder if American losses are leveling off, after going through a corrective period for some time. The fall will likely decide a lot of that, so it will be interesting when the August and September numbers roll out.

 

[Jim Prower]

Why does it appear to me like the MiTo and 500 are stepping on each other's toes?

and will the Abarth Punto be showing it's face here. :3

 

[Tornado]

I think its wonderful how much the $$$ for clunkers plan misses the point. If they truly wanted fuel mileage to rise, they have it set up backwards (not that I'm complaining).
So what happens when scores of year-or-so-old cars begin clogging dealer lots rather than new ones?

 

[Sniffs]

know what one's were getting, huh? they'll still be unaffordable to me.

as for the "cash for clunkers"..pfft, yeah, RIGHT.