The contradictory nature of the X1/X2010

[markydjay]

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the original point was that the x1 wasn't actually realistic in physics as oppose to just 'not likely to feature in a real race in the next years'

 

[Luminis]

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the original point was that the x1 wasn't actually realistic in physics as oppose to just 'not likely to feature in a real race in the next years'

The original point was obviously that the X2010 doesn't exist in real life, which contradicts the vision of creating an encyclopedia of cars. You can't just make stuff up and put it into an encyclopedia.

The point I've been adressing in my last post, the 'not going to be racing's future', was brought up later.

 

[Instrumental]

It may not be a real car but it's based off of real concepts and technologies and is a prototype like many other cars in the game. It's very fun and challenging to drive and I think it's great that PD put their time into developing it. Arguing whether or not the physics of it are realistic when it doesn't exist is rather asinine because... it doesn't exist. PD claims that is designed within the real world limitations of physics and that's good enough for me until this prototype becomes a reality.

 

[kanjifreak]

The original point was obviously that the X2010 doesn't exist in real life, which contradicts the vision of creating an encyclopedia of cars. You can't just make stuff up and put it into an encyclopedia.

The point I've been adressing in my last post, the 'not going to be racing's future', was brought up later.

Luminis just got the point brought to the table here by the OP.

 

[JJ72]

Fact is an expert doesn't just forget everything they know because they are working on a side project, no matter how small

Although he might have the car down in principle, he wouldn't have the time to finish the details to make it a viable real car, things like heat management, part stiffness and overall packaging. It takes a few months to design a F1 car, let alone shaking it down and ironing out the problems, I don't think Newey will have few months to spare when his team is fighting for the championship.

Certainly I will believe that in the CFD the X1 can deliever the sort of performance we see in GT5, but there's an entirely different thing compare to really building it....for example they can easily code a gearbox which can withstand the 1500bhp, but buildling one in real life is an entirely different matter.

 

[kanjifreak]

Although he might have the car down in principle, he wouldn't have the time to finish the details to make it a viable real car, things like heat management, part stiffness and overall packaging. It takes a few months to design a F1 car, let alone shaking it down and ironing out the problems, I don't think Newey will have few months to spare when his team is fighting for the championship.

Certainly I will believe that in the CFD the X1 can deliever the sort of performance we see in GT5, but there's an entirely different thing compare to really building it....for example they can easily code a gearbox which can withstand the 1500bhp, but buildling one in real life is an entirely different matter.

Of course, but many people here just think that algorithms in video games are the same as actual physical creations. Funny.

 

[JJ72]

That's the power of hype, because it's Redbull F1 team people assume it is going to be developed at a F1 level, which simply is impossible. Let alone the fact that no tire in existence can handle that load, unless someday Redbull also build tires it is simply an impossibility for the X1 to be a real car.

I have the same issue with many of the concept cars as well, like the Citroen GT. Most concept cars are really styling exercise based on old platforms, they are not thought out in terms of engineering and simply drives like a piece of ****. Most of imagery drive trains or some stand in parts, it isn't a car that is designed to be drive in anger by any means.

In the worst case like the Citroen it isn't even ergonomically sound, the visibility out of that thing is so awful it is not even practical as a race car.

 

[Patrocles]

It was developed by top ranking members of Red Bull f1's design and engineering teams. It is designed to be the highest performing racecar possible with todays technology. They haven't made one in the real world because the cost would be enormous and there's not a lot they could do with it (give it to the stig?) being that it breaks all the rules of f1 and other motorsports. But it is at least suppose to be realistic in terms of what it is capable of. It's not like they just dreamed up a fantasy rocket car that runs on magic. That was the whole point of the project.

Unfortunately, unless they show us the data and game physics we can only assume what you have stated above.

For all we know the Red Bull lads used supercomputers to prepare a virtual Red Bull X1. On the flip side the lads could have popped down to the local pub, drunk a few pints of bitter, and wrote out some numbers on back of a napkin for the basis fo the Red Bull X1.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Is the X2010 really, well, real? No. If said manufacturer got the idea and built the car, would it be like that? Maybe. PD doesn't know how every car is. The FGT? Probably not exact, because it was never built. All those LM cars? Probably not exact, but they did a good job at it. There are cars that weren't real, never will be real, but PD knew they had to do a good job to really7 mimic if it were a real life model.

 

[Tornado]

I'd rather they get the real stuff done correctly before they went around making stuff up...

 

[kanjifreak]

That's the power of hype, because it's Redbull F1 team people assume it is going to be developed at a F1 level, which simply is impossible. Let alone the fact that no tire in existence can handle that load, unless someday Redbull also build tires it is simply an impossibility for the X1 to be a real car.

I have the same issue with many of the concept cars as well, like the Citroen GT. Most concept cars are really styling exercise based on old platforms, they are not thought out in terms of engineering and simply drives like a piece of ****. Most of imagery drive trains or some stand in parts, it isn't a car that is designed to be drive in anger by any means.

In the worst case like the Citroen it isn't even ergonomically sound, the visibility out of that thing is so awful it is not even practical as a race car.

That one looks like something taken from a Batman movie, and I can't agree more with you.

But it's Polyphony Digital and its "grandeur complex", they are forgetting that they are nothing more than programmers, not engineers, a racing team or anything close to that. They also forgot their own "real driving simulator" philosophy.

The same thing happened when Japan couldn't compete economically with the USA in movies back in the Hollywood splendor. Thus, anime was born.

I really like Japan, I lived there, I can speak Japanese, my kid goes to a Japanese bicultural school because I praise their discipline, but they just go absurd on fantasy and science fiction, as stated in the OP.

 

[kanjifreak]

I'd rather they get the real stuff done correctly before they went around making stuff up...

I'm totally with you, but people will never understand. They just venerate GT because it's GT, and that's a huge authority fallacy. I LOVE the franchise myself, but I just don't stop rationalizing because of that.

 

[shirakawaa]

A real fully functional proof-of-concept of the X2010 should be feasible.
Outside race regulations there wouldn't be problems with the technologies and solutions used. The gearbox and the engine don't seem to be anything exotic. Aerodinamically it shouldn't be a problem to recreate. The problem would be the tires: I don't know if anything exists yet for such loads, but I guess that something probably using aerospace technology, without any limitation in materials and technology used, with a few million dollars could be made.

It's very unlikely that a real race series based on such car could exist however.

 

[skywolf23]

The grip (and thus, the fan) isn't the point.

The X2010's weaknesses are:
1) The driver not being able to withstand the Gs for very long.
2) The tyres not coping with that level of punishment for very long.

And additionally, because thr X2010 was brought up as the future of racing:
3) The general environment of racing (safety, level playing field, environmentalism, pick your poison) keeping it from ever becoming the 'future of racing'.


QFT. There's a reason F1 is as popular as it is nowadays.

I agree with points 1 and 2.

Show me any tire in the world that can handle 280 mph on a straight, 300+ mph with a draft, can handle 140 to 190 mph in 2nd gear turns, and so on.

I mean after half a lap any real tire would be toasted.

The g forces might be tolerable to a human in very limited stretches, but if the car crashed at speed? Well i think the resulting forces would be pretty much guaranteed fatal.

Now all that said almost every gt game has had a god car so the x1 is not off the reservation for gt5 and if you do not like the car do not use it period. It is a fun car to drive every now and then but i hardly prefer it over my normal cars that actually drive like real cars.

 

[kanjifreak]

I agree with points 1 and 2.

...don't drive it, period.

It is a fun car to drive every now and then but i hardly prefer it over my normal cars that actually drive like real cars.

The only thing that the X1 is good for is grinding xp on the Indy Oval.

It is really funny to read phrases ending with the word "period". That is as if a God just showed the undebatable truth to mortals...

 

[Instrumental]

The only thing that the X1 is good for is grinding xp on the Indy Oval.

More than most of the cars can say. Obviously if you don't enjoy driving it, it's not going to be good for anything but grinding levels, so you're really not saying much.

 

[skywolf23]

The only thing that the X1 is good for is grinding xp on the Indy Oval.

It is really funny to read phrases ending with the word "period". That is as if a God just showed the undebatable truth to mortals...

Yea i wish i had the X1 when i was grinding indy 500 lol, Did it in the minolta would have saved me about 20 minutes a race if i had had the X1 but the wheel wobble with the X1 since i tried it out on like the wind is much worse than what you get in the minolta at speed. And the minolta was brutal enough heh.

 

[DreamersParady]

I really can't understand why this car is such an issue.

Kaz went to Adrian Newey at RedBull and said, if you could build any race car that wasn't limited to regulations what would you build?

And he came up with the X-1.

Its probably pure fantasy, but there are a lot of other cars in GT5 which were conceived as concepts and never made it to production. They are usually the ones without weight and power figures.

 

[Luminis]

I really can't understand why this car is such an issue.

Because no other car stands out as much as the X2010. There's just nothing like that, because it absolutely trounces everything else.

The FGT did that in previous GTs, and now that we finally have real F1 cars in the game, PD went ahead and got themselves another car that's without equal in the game.

A lot of the 'LM Race Cars' are dreamed up as well, however, those are not anywhere near as controversial, for the simple reason that everyone can understand that those cars could easily be created and work that way in real life. That goes for the FGT as weell, of course. The X2010 is different, though. Which adds to the fact that it's the new ultimate car.
The FGT had real life counterparts, in a way. It was derived from actual cars.

All those things considered, you've got a car that:
A) Doesn't exist in real life.
B) Has nothing it is derived from.
C) Has no competition in the game.
D) Couldn't even work that way in real life (as explained earlier).
E) Has a lot more focus on it because of the 'fastet race car ever' thing.
Therefore, it's only natural that people will have a more critical attitude towards the X2010 than to towards any other car that PD created themselves so far.

And while I personally like the idea of the X2010, I do think that it's mostly the fact that it's such an unfathomable car that can be accused of not working out in real life that makes people think it has no place in a game that labels itself as 'The Real Driving Simulator'.
And I personally think that is a very valid point to make.

 

[kanjifreak]

And while I personally like the idea of the X2010, I do think that it's mostly the fact that it's such an unfathomable car that can be accused of not working out in real life that makes people think it has no place in a game that labels itself as 'The Real Driving Simulator'.
And I personally think that is a very valid point to make.

Thank you, at last a very reasonable guy...

 

[Chronoslol]

And while I personally like the idea of the X2010, I do think that it's mostly the fact that it's such an unfathomable car that can be accused of not working out in real life that makes people think it has no place in a game that labels itself as 'The Real Driving Simulator'.
And I personally think that is a very valid point to make.

But do you mean not physically possible or not physically feasible? Because I see nothing in the X2010's specifications or even the way it drives/handles that defys physics.

The tyre issue is overblown, how much better would X2010 tyres need to be than formula 1 tyres already are, really. You have to remember F1 tyres are exposed at all times, and take a hell of alot more punishment than they would if they were covered.

The only part of the car that is unfeasible is the forces it puts on the driver. I'm pretty sure no human being would be able to handle 8+ lateral Gs for very long, so in the sense of it being a race car piloted by humans, its very unfeasible.

But fantastical? Physically impossible? I don't think so.

 

[acky]

Realistic maybe not, but challenging to drive yes. How about a fun competition? Fastest on the Ring!!!!.

GT4 Time with C9 4:50.225
Redbull X1 4:26 and that was only the second run.

 

[Luminis]

But do you mean not physically possible or not physically feasible? Because I see nothing in the X2010's specifications or even the way it drives/handles that defys physics.

Well, both, partially. But the problem lies in the impossibilities. Dead drivers don't race well, I hear.

The tyre issue is overblown, how much better would X2010 tyres need to be than formula 1 tyres already are, really. You have to remember F1 tyres are exposed at all times, and take a hell of alot more punishment than they would if they were covered.

Uhm, frankly, no. The difference is tremenduous. A F1 car doesn't get anywhere near the X2010's straightline speed, let alone the cornering speeds. Top speed for a Red Bull F1 at Suzuka? 313mh/h. X2010? 420+km/h. The F1 takes the left-hand bend on the back straigh at ~300km/h, the X2010 at 400+km/h. If you can't see that there is an incredible difference between the punishment the tyres have to endure, you're either being in denial or have no idea what you're talking about, sorry.

And just being exposed isn't the problem, as the air isn't what's causing the tyres to degrade, but the friction from the tarmac. The amount of heat generated from friction at the speeds the X2010 should be capable of would cause huge problems.

That's like saying, you know, "The Yeron SS can only go, like 80km/h faster than the FXX, there's not going to be much of a difference for the tyres." But there is. There's one hell of a difference. Like, a 20 grand difference. And that's just for going in a straight line.

Plus, the tyres will have to cope with a higher load at all times due to the downforce, when compared to an F1 car.

 

[Sidstyler]

Realistic maybe not, but challenging to drive yes. How about a fun competition? Fastest on the Ring!!!!.

GT4 Time with C9 4:50.225
Redbull X1 4:26 and that was only the second run.

It catches Draft like no one's business, it is hilarious fun doing Like the Wind Indy, Normal speed of 450 going down the straight, but catch the slipstream of anything and it is like you are back on the 3rd gear and shoot up to 490 if you hold it long.

Driving it I can see What makes it such an interesting car, it Demands perfection out of it's driver. Braking just a tiny bit too early can add a whole second of difference to your lap time.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Sry but then having tcs, abs and whatever else you can fit for assist in a pre 90's car is just not realistic neither and have no place in a real driving simulation. Also going straight into a wall and continuing racing can not fit a real driving simulation. And I could continue on.

You dont like to drive it I understand, but honestly saying it shoudnt be GT5 is a bit too much. Kaz made the game, and I'm glad they put the X2010 in it, it's a nice concept and the GT series always featured concept car, for once they tried to reach the perfection in term of speed in racing, I find it nice. And dont you find it thrilling to try to beat the actual F1 world champion in X2010 ? I do even if it's hella hard.

 

[Luminis]

Sry but then having tcs, abs and whatever else you can fit for assist in a pre 90's car is just not realistic neither and have no place in a real driving simulation. Also going straight into a wall and continuing racing can not fit a real driving simulation. And I could continue on.

You're right, all of that is actually unrealistig and contradicts the statement of 'real driving simulator', but the driving aids could at least be fitted to a car if someone wanted to pay for it. I already pointed the difference of the X2010 out.

Not being real is one thing, not being realistic another...

 

[yt.9]

Not so. The Nike ONE was a concept prototype of exactly the same ilk - it only existed as a PD virtual collaboration with Nike.

This is something noone has really countered. Here's an excerpt from its Wikipedia entry regarding technology:

"The concept car utilizes technology that hasn't yet been realized in addition to Nike technology that exists in their current products such as Nike Shox technology for the seat suspension. The vehicle features various forms of heads-up displays.

The car is controlled by a series of non-invasive bioports on the driver's hands and is transceived in the vehicle's central processing unit. Nike says that the vehicle "contributes to the overall feeling of connectivity."

The Nike ONE uses a unique kind of energy source called the HEP Drive (Human Energy Potential), which utilizes the energy collected by the Nike Spark Suit and stores it in batteries in the footwear of the driver. This bio-electricity is then used to power the electric hub-less micromotors located in the wheels of the Nike ONE. This kind of drive is intended for use by athletes to train muscles and improve the cardiovascular system using pain-training-style methods."

Hmmm, seems like adding a completely hypothetical vehicle to the game is hardly something new to GT5. At least the X2010 is grounded in somewhat believeable technology.

Moreso, I'm not exactly sure what the Japanese nature of the developers really has to do with the inclusion of the car in this game, especially when the design of the car comes from an Englishman working for an Austrian-owned team, featured by a German driver.

 

[Chronoslol]

Uhm, frankly, no. The difference is tremenduous. A F1 car doesn't get anywhere near the X2010's straightline speed, let alone the cornering speeds. Top speed for a Red Bull F1 at Suzuka? 313mh/h. X2010? 420+km/h. The F1 takes the left-hand bend on the back straigh at ~300km/h, the X2010 at 400+km/h. If you can't see that there is an incredible difference between the punishment the tyres have to endure, you're either being in denial or have no idea what you're talking about, sorry.

Of course there is a difference, that's obvious, but the important thing is how much of a difference. An impossible difference? Could the tyres for the X2010 be literally unmakable? I don't think so. I don't think tyre technology is at a standstill, I'm sure the tyres of the year 2025 will make current ones look like crap.

And just being exposed isn't the problem, as the air isn't what's causing the tyres to degrade, but the friction from the tarmac. The amount of heat generated from friction at the speeds the X2010 should be capable of would cause huge problems.

You think the tyres being exposed to the air isn't a problem? You think Formula 1 tyres being exposed to air speeds in the order of 500-600km/h doesnt affect them? And you think the X2010 not having this issue at all isn't an advantage? And you think I have no idea what i'm talking about?

That's like saying, you know, "The Yeron SS can only go, like 80km/h faster than the FXX, there's not going to be much of a difference for the tyres." But there is. There's one hell of a difference. Like, a 20 grand difference. And that's just for going in a straight line.

The FXX runs slicks. The Veyron SS runs Specialised street tyres that are capable of running at extremely high speeds. You'd better believe the FXX has the far superior tyres for track work, so I don't really see your point except to say that going faster puts more stress on tyres, which is obvious.

My entire point is that the X2010 isn't unrealistic; it's all theoretically possible. IF tyres existed that could handle the downforce and turning speeds (assuming they don't already), and IF the driver could handle it, it would run like it does.

Hell you could even say the driver could be using a perfluorocarbon breathing system in liquid filled cockpit, which would even take care of the G-Forces issue.

 

[speedthrill]

Hello:

PD has always been obsessed with reality. They created the real driving simulator that emulates the behavior of real life cars, with real detail, with real tuning, real tracks, real events...

Isn't it contradictory from them to come up with an X1 pantomime?

I just unlocked the car a few minutes ago from the Vettel challenge. Honestly, it is not fun to use that car, it is absurdly fast and unreal.

With all due respect to the Japanese, they have always been absurdly fantasying about futuristic elements. They have them in their fashion, their vehicles, their movies, their novels about them conquering the world technologically, their success with emulating human feelings on androids, you name it...

I guess PD is too culturally influenced, even to the point of going against their entire concept in the game.

One thing is to be biased to your culture or your nationality (which is natural, everyone does it) by calling the GT-R something that Ferrari should be wary about (just to name one example), and another thing is to go against your own creation or concept therein.

I'm ambivalently annoyed...

The franchise is superb, but there is always something really absurd to take away quasi-pristine quality from it.

It is Redbull who is building this car right now not PD, redbull with their F1 technology...
Go check some sources and you won't believe the reality...

 

[JJ72]

You think the tyres being exposed to the air isn't a problem? You think Formula 1 tyres being exposed to air speeds in the order of 500-600km/h doesnt affect them? And you think the X2010 not having this issue at all isn't an advantage? And you think I have no idea what i'm talking about?

why is air blowing against the tire a problem? it is only a problem in aerodynamic sense but it does close to nothing to the tire, except maybe heating up the surface a tiny tiny bit, but it is incomparable to the impact of having to deal with 7G cornering in contrast to the usual 5G in current F1. I have watched F1 for 12 years and I have never heard about air friction over tire surface being a problem.