The contradictory nature of the X1/X2010

[ROYALEFATALE]

personally i love driving the X2010, it's one of my favorite cars because it requires so much precision and skill to drive fast through a track like nurburgring, also if you're using a controller i can see why it would be lame, VERY twitchy/hard to drive without a wheel

 

[Luminis]

Of course there is a difference, that's obvious, but the important thing is how much of a difference. An impossible difference? Could the tyres for the X2010 be literally unmakable? I don't think so. I don't think tyre technology is at a standstill, I'm sure the tyres of the year 2025 will make current ones look like crap.

So, a car that relies on a technology that might be developed in the next fifteen years seems realistic to you? By that logic, why not have some F-Zero like cars? They might exist as well, somewhen.

You think the tyres being exposed to the air isn't a problem? You think Formula 1 tyres being exposed to air speeds in the order of 500-600km/h doesnt affect them? And you think the X2010 not having this issue at all isn't an advantage? And you think I have no idea what i'm talking about?

I never said that it's not an advantage, but a tyre that will cope with the friction from the tarmac will cope with the friction from the air as well.

The FXX runs slicks. The Veyron SS runs Specialised street tyres that are capable of running at extremely high speeds. You'd better believe the FXX has the far superior tyres for track work, so I don't really see your point except to say that going faster puts more stress on tyres, which is obvious.

The point is, extreme speeds demand extreme tyres. I was basically illustrating that point. And while it is obvious that higher speeds will cause more stress on the tyre, some folks seem to think that going another 100km/h faster than an F1 car wouldn't make much of a difference. Which I can only laugh at, really

My entire point is that the X2010 isn't unrealistic; it's all theoretically possible. IF tyres existed that could handle the downforce and turning speeds (assuming they don't already), and IF the driver could handle it, it would run like it does.

A lot of 'if's for a car that does run on a track in 'The Real Driving Simulator', don't you think? A car that relies on technologies that might be developed somewhere in the future isn't realistic, it's science fiction.

Hell you could even say the driver could be using a perfluorocarbon breathing system in liquid filled cockpit, which would even take care of the G-Forces issue.

As you can clearly see in the introduction video of the Sebastian Vettel Challenge, the X2010 doesn't feature any of that.

 

[FrozenInferno]

Fighter jet pilots can be exposed to forces up to 9G's and maintain consciousness thanks to G-Suits, in fact Red Bull helped design a new suit for the Red Bull Air Race Championship so maybe they accounted for that while "designing" the X2010. If the driver wears the proper G-Suit and practices the right muscle straining and breathing techniques I believe the G-Forces caused by the X2010 can be handled. It would take a whole new level of driver though, basically a fighter pilot on wheels, but possible I think.

Tires may be another story, but with enough money I'm sure it would be possible to come up with something. F1 has been kind of handcuffed with cost-cutting measures but with a blank cheque a lot could be possible.

And really, if the concept behind the X2010 some day leads to a new form of racing it doesn't mean the cars have to meet the EXACT specs of the GT5 version. If you keep the fan technology, bring down the speeds and G-forces to a safer level, and develop tires that can handle the loads you can still have a form of racing much faster than F1. The X2010 may be a dream car but it could lead to something more reasonable and exciting to watch.

 

[Luminis]

FAnd really, if the concept behind the X2010 some day leads to a new form of racing it doesn't mean the cars have to meet the EXACT specs of the GT5 version. If you keep the fan technology, bring down the speeds and G-forces to a safer level, and develop tires that can handle the loads you can still have a form of racing much faster than F1. The X2010 may be a dream car but it could lead to something more reasonable and exciting to watch.

That would be interesting, indeed. However, I generally wonder if 'faster' is the future of motorsports in general. Or rather, whether 'faster' equals 'more exciting'.

 

[JJ72]

That would be interesting, indeed. However, I generally wonder if 'faster' is the future of motorsports in general. Or rather, whether 'faster' equals 'more exciting'.

The closet and most exciting racing is often found in grassroot motorsports and touring cars,since in X1 speed, a 0.1 gap could be 40 meters, which means the cars will be spread apart much more and less fender to fender racing.

 

[GasolineJunkie]

I still never got a chance to race this thing yet, but I'm really not looking forward to it. Like many have said in this thread, it doesn't seem realistic, which ruins the exp. for me.

But if I get to the point where my BSpec'ers need to grind it out, I'm sure I'll find a good use for it.

 

[Nikked]

Well, GT5 is a "simulator" and a X1 is a "simulated" model of a concept using many currently applicable technlogies. I don't see the problem, espcially when there are all these concept cars in the game.

 

[midjetv8]

Whose to say it isnt possible. All the men from the 18th century sitting around joking about going 200km per hour. Would of seemed impossible for them to imagine those speeds just like it is hard for us to imagine the x1 being able to go that fast. I mean 7 G is routine for a stunt pilot and im not a scientist or an expert so correct me if im wrong but even at the x1 speeds it still wouldnt be 7 G.

 

[JJ72]

It will be 7G, a modern F1 pull 5G at max, and the X1 is almost 1.5 as fast in most corners. But stunt pilot only sustain that for 1 min or so, and mostly it's a combination of vertical and lateral G, meaning there's less demand on the neck muscle in terms of sideway forces. In the X1, on a grand prix distance, it's an hour and 7G of pure laterial force.

The fan makes the matter worse because in current F1 downforce is generated with speed, so most mid-slow speed corner is usually only 2G, but the fan on the X1 means downforce is always there no matter what speed it is, making even a simple hairpin way over 3G, so the driver literally have no time to rest.

If anyone had karting experience (not rental, but proper sprint karts). doing contant 2G turns for 20 mins is enough to drain most of your strength out, even for someone who is considerably fit. F1 races on big tracks with more straights, hence drivers can coupe with it better, but imagine driving a X1 when all the straights are shortened and you are doing 15 turns per minute, compare to the average 9 turns per minute in F1, the jump in demand is enormous.

 

[euros only]

x2010=unreal fast
the rest of the cars=slow and boring

 

[Chronoslol]

So, a car that relies on a technology that might be developed in the next fifteen years seems realistic to you? By that logic, why not have some F-Zero like cars? They might exist as well, somewhen.

I never said it did rely on technology developed in the next 15 years. I'd imagine that in 15 years we'd have the technology to create something quite a bit faster. But to my knowledge nobody is dumping millions of dollars at the moment to create tyres for a racing car that doesn't exist, and if they did i'm sure they could create tyres for the X1. I'm sure the X1's tyres are not impossibly good.

That is my entire point.

I'll give you an anology. I'm sure its completely possible to create a race car that can do 500km/h. Nobody has done it yet (not counting drag cars), but it's possible. It's not unrealistic just because it hasn't been done before.

Impossible would be creating a race car that can do mach 5. That's unrealistic.

The X1 would take a lot of time and money to create in real life, but it could be done. Not with technology from 15 years in the future, but with technology from today. That is why it isnt 'unrealistic'. Just because it seems unrealistic doesn't mean it is. Personally I think formula one cars seem damn unrealistic, but obviously they work fine.

I never said that it's not an advantage, but a tyre that will cope with the friction from the tarmac will cope with the friction from the air as well.

Thats true.

The point is, extreme speeds demand extreme tyres. I was basically illustrating that point. And while it is obvious that higher speeds will cause more stress on the tyre, some folks seem to think that going another 100km/h faster than an F1 car wouldn't make much of a difference. Which I can only laugh at, really

It would make a lot of difference, but an unattainable difference?

A lot of 'if's for a car that does run on a track in 'The Real Driving Simulator', don't you think? A car that relies on technologies that might be developed somewhere in the future isn't realistic, it's science fiction.

Pretty irrelevent, GT5 has had concept cars that don't actually exist since Gran Turismo 2, thats part of the fun of the game. Driving 'what if' cars. I don't see the big difference between the X2010 and say, the Nike One, or the Citroen GT.

The Citroen GT is a prime example, as its electric engine is just as 'unrealistic' as the X2010's tyres.

I'd also like to point out that science fiction can be extremely realistic.

As you can clearly see in the introduction video of the Sebastian Vettel Challenge, the X2010 doesn't feature any of that.

Thats true.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The problem with the G-argument that says "fast jet/stunt pilots withstand more" is this;

In a modern G-Suit the lower extremities of the body are pinched in order that blood doesn't all sink into them. When pulling a high-G manouever the pilot will always try to angle the plane so that those Gs are exerted along the relative virtual axis of the plane.

In an X1 car (or any other fast formula car) the Gs are exerted laterally. A G-suit would be of very little use in such cases as it wouldn't protect the 'loaded' side of the brain and would almost certainly require pinching of the arm and leg on the 'loaded' side. That could make car control difficult to say the least...

 

[Chronoslol]

The problem with the G-argument that says "fast jet/stunt pilots withstand more" is this;

In a modern G-Suit the lower extremities of the body are pinched in order that blood doesn't all sink into them. When pulling a high-G manouever the pilot will always try to angle the plane so that those Gs are exerted along the relative virtual axis of the plane.

In an X1 car (or any other fast formula car) the Gs are exerted laterally. A G-suit would be of very little use in such cases as it wouldn't protect the 'loaded' side of the brain and would almost certainly require pinching of the arm and leg on the 'loaded' side. That could make car control difficult to say the least...

Yes exactly, the argument for unbearable G-Forces is by far the most compelling argument against the X2010. It would be undrivable if it was real, but it could still be made, in my opinion. The only technology i'm aware of that would allow the driver to handle 8+ Lateral Gs is liquid immersion with a liquid breathing setup, which the X2010 as depicted clearly doesn't have.

 

[JJ72]

I'll give you an anology. I'm sure its completely possible to create a race car that can do 500km/h. Nobody has done it yet (not counting drag cars), but it's possible. It's not unrealistic just because it hasn't been done before.

Impossible would be creating a race car that can do mach 5. That's unrealistic.

I don't think it is a very good analogy?

Because the difference between a 500km/h and mach 5 car is merely a difference in scope, not in nature, who says in 1000 years we can't create a mach 5 car?

The easiest way will be to create a tube of vacuum and find a way of propulsion that works in vacuum i.e. and electric motor, you really can't say it is impossible.

 

[Chronoslol]

I don't think it is a very good analogy?

Because the difference between a 500km/h and mach 5 car is merely a difference in scope, not in nature, who says in 1000 years we can't create a mach 5 car?

The easiest way will be to create a tube of vacuum and find a way of propulsion that works in vacuum i.e. and electric motor, you really can't say it is impossible.

Ok so it isn't impossible, you're right, but it is far, far outside the realm of current technology. Also I can hardly see how anything going 5 times the speed of sound can be considered a car.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...I can hardly see how anything going 5 times the speed of sound can be considered a car.

My grandfather couldn't see how a box showing moving pictures would ever make his wireless redundant.

That's valve wireless, of course... not 802g

 

[JJ72]

Ok so it isn't impossible, you're right, but it is far, far outside the realm of current technology. Also I can hardly see how anything going 5 times the speed of sound can be considered a car.

The definition of a car has nothing to do with the speed it achieves, look at the current land speed record machines, they are basically fighter jets with smaller wings and some wheels, but it still classifies as a car.

The difference really is just that....how far from the current reality is considered acceptable, and it's a matter of personal perspective and with no right or wrong, some think 15 year is alright, some prefer less, and I am pretty strict about it and only really want cars that is produced and actually tested by someone.

There's no right or wrong about that, it's just personal reference and what "WE" think the GT philosophy is about, afterall only Kaz has the say on what GT's philosophy is........but his view is often very questionable.

 

[Luminis]

I never said it did rely on technology developed in the next 15 years. I'd imagine that in 15 years we'd have the technology to create something quite a bit faster. But to my knowledge nobody is dumping millions of dollars at the moment to create tyres for a racing car that doesn't exist, and if they did i'm sure they could create tyres for the X1. I'm sure the X1's tyres are not impossibly good.

That is my entire point.

While I technically agree with that point, there are two gripes I have with it:
1: Whether one could develop those tyres (if enough money was thrown at it) right now or not is pretty irrelevant. If Red Bull built the X2010 in 2010, they couldn't run it.
Whether those tyres would be ready by 2011 or 2025 doesn't matter.
2: Even if they developed tyres to cope with the friction and load the X2010 generates, it would have to cope with it for quite a distance. Getting the X2010 to run a full lap around the 'Ring will ask qute something from the tyres.

I'll give you an anology. I'm sure its completely possible to create a race car that can do 500km/h. Nobody has done it yet (not counting drag cars), but it's possible. It's not unrealistic just because it hasn't been done before.

Creating a car that can do 500km/h isn't a problem. Creating a car that can actually go around a track and reach 500km/h on that track, keep enough fuel efficency and be gentle enough on the tyres and driver to be driven for a few full laps, though, that would be impossible with the technology currently available.
That's what I think a lot of people are overlooking when thinking about the X2010: The performance figures are achievable. Getting that thing to run in a straight line? Completely possible. Having a driver and tyres that manage to withstand a turn or two? Not probable, but still possible. Using the car as it is used in GT5? Impossible with the technologies currently available.

The X1 would take a lot of time and money to create in real life, but it could be done. Not with technology from 15 years in the future, but with technology from today. That is why it isnt 'unrealistic'. Just because it seems unrealistic doesn't mean it is. Personally I think formula one cars seem damn unrealistic, but obviously they work fine.

As I said above, creating the car is oone thing, using it as represented in the game is a completely different one. That's simply put not possible to do, even if it's just due to the driver not being able to drive the car as depicted.
I mean, let's look at the facts:
- The car doesn't exist.
- Even if it did, it couldn't be used as depicted.

That, right there, is the definition of unrealistic. Venturing into the discussion whether itt would be possible to create it with existing technology is a nice thinking exercise. However, possible doesn't equal realistic. Not 'simulator' realistic, at least.

It would make a lot of difference, but an unattainable difference?

To keep it short: Currently, yes.

Pretty irrelevent, GT5 has had concept cars that don't actually exist since Gran Turismo 2, thats part of the fun of the game. Driving 'what if' cars. I don't see the big difference between the X2010 and say, the Nike One, or the Citroen GT.

The Citroen GT is a prime example, as its electric engine is just as 'unrealistic' as the X2010's tyres.

Two things: First of, I personally like the 'what if' cars just as much myself. Second, as I pointed out earlier, the X2010 is a bit different due to the fact that it is A) doing what it's doing under extreme circumstances, B) is pretty focused on in the game, considering how it is presentted and hyped up and C) it trounces every other car in the game in terms of performance, which creates the question of possibility in addition to the one of realism.

I'd also like to point out that science fiction can be extremely realistic.

Quite true, but, if we're getting back to the original point of the thread, the question is: Does this work of science fiction go well with the original idea of 'The Real Driving Simulator', to be an encyclopedia of cars?
I mean, when was the last time the Encyclopedia Britannica featured an article that's a work of science fiction?

 

[Dashers]

The design brief of the car was to create the ultimate that could be achievable with today's technology. It was fully CAD modelled by Red Bull, this isn't just hypothetical fantasy. It probably wont ever be built because it would cost a large amount of money to produce a car that is essentially useless, it cannot be raced in any series, and quite possibly would un-drivable at full tilt. I would like to see a mad billionaire front up the money though

 

[TheROADKRAKEN]

Every time I hear complaints about fantasy cars in Gran Turismo I think of one truth:

There have been fantasy TRACKS in Gran Turismo since game one and nobody seems to mind! It's the same deal - they don't exist in real life, probably never will, but they COULD exist and they follow the same rules and physics as tracks taken from real life.

So what is the huge difference when they start including made-up cars? IMO they should be doing this far more often. Every class of road car even(K, compact, roadster, coupe, sedan, sports, GT, super sports, and hyper cars) should have at least one PD-created version. It doesn't throw some giant monkey wrench into the nerdy continuity of "real" cars, just as much as the "fake" tracks have come to be accepted by GT fans.

 

[Luminis]

IMO they should be doing this far more often. Every class of road car even(K, compact, roadster, coupe, sedan, sports, GT, super sports, and hyper cars) should have at least one PD-created version. It doesn't throw some giant monkey wrench into the nerdy continuity of "real" cars, just as much as the "fake" tracks have come to be accepted by GT fans.

Hey, yeah, throw in some Hot Wheels as well!

 

[jimy281090]

The Red Bull X2010 was designed by Adrian Newey and Polyphony Digital Engineers. The "car" is not desgined or created by the Japanese alone in any old way, it was designed the way Newey wanted it so do you turn you're aggression and anger on the British?. If the car was very unrealistic and totally crazy Newey would have objected to it. Go on Youtube and you will find MULTIPLE Interviews on how Newey wanted this car to be the way it is aesthetically and mechanically. Sebastian Vettel also comments on how real this "car" would actually be to drive in the "Real World" so please consider you're choice of words next time.

 

[JJ72]

link to the interviews?

 

[Dashers]

Every time I hear complaints about fantasy cars in Gran Turismo I think of one truth:

There have been fantasy TRACKS in Gran Turismo since game one and nobody seems to mind! It's the same deal - they don't exist in real life, probably never will, but they COULD exist and they follow the same rules and physics as tracks taken from real life.

So what is the huge difference when they start including made-up cars? IMO they should be doing this far more often. Every class of road car even(K, compact, roadster, coupe, sedan, sports, GT, super sports, and hyper cars) should have at least one PD-created version. It doesn't throw some giant monkey wrench into the nerdy continuity of "real" cars, just as much as the "fake" tracks have come to be accepted by GT fans.

Indeed, there have been a few PD/GT inspired race cars popping up in the game, every now and again I read the description of the "Ultimate Gran Turismo inspired version" of something or something else.

 

[Luminis]

The Red Bull X2010 was designed by Adrian Newey and Polyphony Digital Engineers. The "car" is not desgined or created by the Japanese alone in any old way, it was designed the way Newey wanted it so do you turn you're aggression and anger on the British?. If the car was very unrealistic and totally crazy Newey would have objected to it. Go on Youtube and you will find MULTIPLE Interviews on how Newey wanted this car to be the way it is aesthetically and mechanically. Sebastian Vettel also comments on how real this "car" would actually be to drive in the "Real World" so please consider you're choice of words next time.

So I guess Sebastian Vettel is some sort of superhuman who can withstand 7G, lateral Gs at that, for the duration of a race? Awesome!

And always remember: Whatever you see on an advertisement must be real. Nobody would lie on advertisements!

 

[prrrikkie]

Red Bull X1 reminds me of WipeOUT HD!

 

[kanjifreak]

So I guess Sebastian Vettel is some sort of superhuman who can withstand 7G, lateral Gs at that, for the duration of a race? Awesome!

And always remember: Whatever you see on an advertisement must be real. Nobody would lie on advertisements!

Lol, maybe they'll understand one day, but let's lower our expectations, it's only a wishful thought...

 

[kanjifreak]

The Red Bull X2010 was designed by Adrian Newey and Polyphony Digital Engineers. The "car" is not desgined or created by the Japanese alone in any old way, it was designed the way Newey wanted it so do you turn you're aggression and anger on the British?. If the car was very unrealistic and totally crazy Newey would have objected to it. Go on Youtube and you will find MULTIPLE Interviews on how Newey wanted this car to be the way it is aesthetically and mechanically. Sebastian Vettel also comments on how real this "car" would actually be to drive in the "Real World" so please consider you're choice of words next time.

Aggression? I love Japan, lived there, I speak Japanese, my nickname is "kanjifreak" because I love their ideograms, my kid goes to a bicultural Japanese school, etc... Can't people read before replying?

Rationalization is something people are calling aggression, interesting...

 

[ruf-ctr2]

So I guess Sebastian Vettel is some sort of superhuman who can withstand 7G, lateral Gs at that, for the duration of a race? Awesome!

And always remember: Whatever you see on an advertisement must be real. Nobody would lie on advertisements!

Your statement is so true...

And maybe we have the "luck" that PD makes a car for GT6 that is inspired and created by Steven Hawking using everything that could be possible in theoretical physics - a "car" with an integrated wormhole creator so it can travel back in time an win the race before it starts....

So the GT5 fanboys can now start to think about defending arguments why it is realistic ....

On the other hand for the fan(boys) of the Kübelwagen and Sambabus they will include Snails "racing" - for them they will make the "100.000 laps on Nürburgring" event ...

 

[SigmaViper11]

I don't think the X1 is too far off the GT5 sepctrum. I mean, yea ok. Realistic, car encyclopedia, . . . but. . . Didn't Kaz say when they announced GT5 and the X1 that they wanted to use GT5 and the system as a type of test bed? Obviously The X1 if made real wouldn't be that fast as it is in game. But . . . I do believe it would be much faster than current F1 cars. So they said it was faster than the RedBull F1 Vettel drives? By what was it 20 seconds a lap on Suzuka? I don't think it would be that much IRL. Maybe closer to about 10 seconds.

Edit: Also, that's stat for one lap. That's not saying the machine would be practical in any kind of way.