The CTS-V Debuts: 0-60 in 3.9, Top Speed of 191 MPH

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If the Ford Falcon rumours are true, Lincoln will probably beat them to the punch with a freaky kind of "neo-Continental."
And besides, listing the Deville as a bad car now ignores the fact that it was always a bad car, all the way back to it's inception; if only because of internal competition (notably the Olds Aurora).
 
...The sad thing is that the DeVille was once the "standard" by which so many luxury cars were measured by. I think a lot of people forget that Cadillac had the GI Joe Kung-Fu-Action Grip on the luxury market for quite some time, particularly post-WWII when American excess was at it's finest. I mean people weren't silly enough to consider a DeVille against a Silver Cloud by any means, but certainly there were comparisons to be drawn at the time.

I would also agree that Lincoln stands to gain a lot of ground if they can manage to pull their heads out of their asses over at Ford. With so much Volvo power being invested into Lincoln, why not change their new flagship car to the S80 anyway?

...Kidding...

Lincoln stands to gain ground based once again on appearance and it's noteable history with being a style leader post-fins Cadillac. Throughout the 1970s, I really can't think of too many cars that screamed silly design like the Continental and Mark (insert number here). Of course Cadillacs were just as outrageous at the time, but Lincoln was a bit ahead of themselves.

...Today it seems to be much the same thing. With the overdressed MKZ (Zephyr), aka Mazda 6, selling decently well for no apparent reason other than "style," whats to stop Lincoln from doing the same thing with newer models? I've allready made fun of the Navigator, but it is showing that Lincoln is going nuts once again. The Mark LT is just as bad, the only guiding lights appear to be the MKS and MKX, both rather tasteful in overall looks.

...But that doesn't always guarantee success in this business, and I think Ford realises that. They need a large RWD platform, and given Ford's current position, they won't do it. Hell, they won't even redo that of the LS' chassis either...
 
I would also agree that Lincoln stands to gain a lot of ground if they can manage to pull their heads out of their asses over at Ford. With so much Volvo power being invested into Lincoln, why not change their new flagship car to the S80 anyway?
That would be a good idea, but Lincoln was too stubborn to ever change to FWD, so I doubt they would see a reason to do so now that RWD is popular again.
YSSMAN
...But that doesn't always guarantee success in this business, and I think Ford realises that. They need a large RWD platform, and given Ford's current position, they won't do it. Hell, they won't even redo that of the LS' chassis either...
But the main problem is not that Ford isn't stubborn (as crazy as that may sound), it's that they simply don't need to. They can float the brand entirely on the Town Car alone, and that any other model is merely fluff. The problem is that they know that they can do that.
And as amazingly wonderful as the LS was (even closer to BMW then anything Cadillac has ever had, original Catera notwithstanding as it really wasn't a Cadillac), they couldn't give the damned things away. Unlike Cadillac, which feels the need to sell cars to sporty drivers, Lincoln seems to think that their clientele doesn't want sporty cars. And I truthfully can't blame them. The LS was a great car, but no one would buy them, so why should Lincoln try to continue to push the car?
That is the fundamental difference between the Cadillac Deville and Lincoln Town Car. The Town Car would probably make Ford money if it started at $20,000, and it essentially has no competition because it isn't sold as an alternative to the Big 3 (Lexus LS, Mercedes S and BMW 7). Cadillac tried desperately to sell the Deville as one, and when that failed they had no where to go except trying to trickle them out to people who were too senile to care whether the car was the best in its class.
If anything, I would say that of the three core Ford brands (Ford, Mercury and Lincoln), Lincoln is currently the best run of the three. Ford doesn't seem to know what the hell they are doing. The Focus is 7 years old, and a new one has been out for almost two years. But Ford won't sell it here. Mercury had the perfect chance to do something special with the Marauder, but they half-assed everything. Hell, even the Lincoln Blackwood pales in comparison to the screw-up that was the Chevrolet SSR or neo-Mercury Cougar. Its just that people didn't fall for the Blackwood like they fell for the SSR or Cougar.
 
That's fine and dandy, but before they started building "sporty" cars, Cadillac was headed nowhere fast. I'll tell you why -- it's a lot easier to build a BMW-fighter for cheap than it is to build a Rolls-Royce fighter for cheap. There's no stopping the voraciousness of a GM bean-counter, and building a big, heavy, softly-sprung "luxury" car doesn't work if you aren't allowed to spend enough money to actually provide the luxury. There isn't even any point in trying.

This is all short-term thinking. It doesn't even fit their current marketing: "Uncover the Legacy", "Timeless Pursuit"...even the simple posters don't evoke anything resembling sport. They had a brief run of ads with the CTS GT car, but that was at least two years ago.

GM needs to focus. Even more than VAG, they have no idea what any brand stands for. It's no wonder they're losing market share everywhere they look. "Focus, focus! ...oh, wait, that's me."


Wolfe2x7
There's just something about seeing a tautly-sprung boxy 4-door powerslide to the soundtrack of classic american muscle that makes me smile. :)

I have no doubt that what they're doing now is good, but only in the short term. And the cars are only selling well in the US. If this is to be Cadillac's future, then they need to clear up the rest of the brands. If it's not, then they need to cash in while they can, and move on to whatever they really want to do. "So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, 'What do you really want?' "
 
This is all short-term thinking. It doesn't even fit their current marketing: "Uncover the Legacy", "Timeless Pursuit"...even the simple posters don't evoke anything resembling sport. They had a brief run of ads with the CTS GT car, but that was at least two years ago.

GM needs to focus. Even more than VAG, they have no idea what any brand stands for. It's no wonder they're losing market share everywhere they look. "Focus, focus! ...oh, wait, that's me."

I have no doubt that what they're doing now is good, but only in the short term. And the cars are only selling well in the US. If this is to be Cadillac's future, then they need to clear up the rest of the brands. If it's not, then they need to cash in while they can, and move on to whatever they really want to do. "So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, 'What do you really want?' "

Do you really think Cadillac could successfully sell expensive, complicated, luxurious sedans along the lines of Mercedes-Benz's S-class? I don't think GM has what it takes to build such cars, and even if they did, Cadillac's brand identity and reputation aren't anywhere close to good enough anymore to command the prices that such cars would require. People already complain about the $100,000 XLR-V, and not always about the fact that it's just a disappointing car, but sometimes for the mere fact that it's a Caddy that costs $100k.

I think that Caddy should continue to pursue its goal of besting the Europeans at the luxurious-yet-fun-to-drive sports sedan idea. Since they've pretty much completed the transition to RWD and learned how to do a pretty good job of setting up a sporty suspension, they need to spend the time and money to work on material quality and interior design, as well as fine-tuning their suspensions to get better at blending ability with comfort.

If they can succeed in doing this, it will greatly benefit GM. Aside from the Z06, nothing else that comes from GM says "hey, look at what we're capable of!" quite like the modern Cadillac. The brand could be a pivotal factor in the "return" of GM.
 
Do you really think Cadillac could successfully sell expensive, complicated, luxurious sedans along the lines of Mercedes-Benz's S-class? I don't think GM has what it takes to build such cars, and even if they did, Cadillac's brand identity and reputation aren't anywhere close to good enough anymore to command the prices that such cars would require. People already complain about the $100,000 XLR-V, and not always about the fact that it's just a disappointing car, but sometimes for the mere fact that it's a Caddy that costs $100k.

There are a number of problems that are keeping Cadillac from being seen as a luxury car company, but all of them stem from one source: GM refuses to put in the effort. It's so much easier to market a car as a sports car than a luxury car, but it's not impossible. Lexus did it, Infiniti did it, and Hyundai is starting down that road -- a company formerly known for losing its winshield wipers at 60 MPH.

If Cadillac continues down this sporting road, it will only further remove itself from its roots, and consequently further from its intended target. GM can not support both sport and luxury in the same brand. It's just not in their nature. Can anyone seriously compare a CTS-V to a M3/M5/S4/RS4/S6/etc.? Is an XLR-V a viable alternative to the SL55? Is it even close? Sure, Cadillac is much better than 10 years ago. We all agree on that. But it's the direction their heading in that's the problem. Make the money now, and then use it wisely. It may not come by again.
 
New photos up for the next-gen CTS-V:

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Fully story and full-size photos here at Leftlanenews.com
 
I think that Cadillac will return to the prestige that it once had, not within 5 years, but eventually, all they have to do is put out a Uber-Limo (Fleetwood? FTS?) and a Luxury-affordable convertible. (Eldo, ETC) This would put them up to muster the line-up of BMW and Mercedes. Just my opinion, and to me, it sounds darn good.
 
Leftlane News has some more photos on the 'Ring today...

Anyway, it is anyone's guess as to how fast it will be. Although most rumors point it twards 500 BHP (at the least, 469 BHP based on the STS-V), and possibly as much as 650 BHP if the folks at GM have the balls to drop in the "Blue Devil's" engine. My guess? I'd peg her right at 505 BHP, straight out of the LS7-powered Z06. It offers the most refinement, power and prestige in GM's current catalogue of engines, and can be civilized when the need be. Although I think using the Supercharged 4.4L unit in the STS-V isn't a bad idea, the fact that it cannot match itself with a manual transmission is a bit of a turn-off... But then again, I'm sure Cadillac loses some sales by not offering the CTS-V with an automatic (I wonder why? The 6L80E is supposed to be a pretty damn good transmission...).

We will see I guess. But if they are going to have this much time to play with engine/transmission/suspension combos given that the next CTS isn't due untill next summer at the earliest, the CTS-V will be an impressive car.
 
http://link.brightcove.com/services...396/bctid769385382]New Video of CTS-V testing

Have I mentioned how much I love Bob Lutz? Yes, his hubris may be getting too strong when it comes to the CTS-V, but hey, he could be right...

Car and Driver Dot Com
General Motors is laying down the gauntlet. The next-gen Cadillac CTS-V won't be here until the fall of 2008, but, with an anticipated 500 horsepower, it has the BMW M5 squarely in its sights.

The next-gen CTS-V “will be at a power level only described as unexpectedly high,” GM vice chairman Bob Lutz tells CARandDRIVER. Sources say we should be prepared for a 25-percent increase on the current car—which means 500 horsepower.

And that has us dreaming of the 505-hp, 7.0-liter LS7 V-8 that currently powers the Corvette, although GM types say there are a few possibilities vying to cram themselves into the CTS-V.

Meanwhile, having recently driven prototypes of the new CTS-V, Lutz pronounced it “flat-out incredible. I’ve never driven anything like that.”

And already he’s talking smack, warning a certain Teutonic competitor that unless the next M5 is substantially better, the CTS-V “will suck the doors off” the competition.

The new V is due in the fall of 2008 as a 2009 model. In the interim, enthusiasts must continue to embrace the 2007 CTS-V powered by the 400-hp 6.0-liter Corvette LS2 V-8 engine. With an-all new CTS sedan bowing this year, the ’07 CTS-V, which will stop production in May, will have to bridge the gap until the V makes its triumphant return as an ’09.

Whew! Well, I'm a bit dissapointed in the current time-frame for the new car, but the performance sounds substantial. I'm excited, but I do find it a bit strange that they're gunning for the M5 now... Or is it just the performance benchmark? Either way, we're likely to see the CTS-V continually compared to the M3 due to price, otherwise that may give-way to the G8 GXP...
 
I'm curious about this car, the current CTS-V is a pain in the ass to drive even in a light rain because of tire spin, I can't imagine what more horsepower would do. I'm disappointed there isn't a LS7 CTS-V though, I wanted to see what a uber caddy would look like, sound like, and drive like.
 
I think its the fact that GM is using the M5 as the benchmark car when they have said it was an M3 competitor before. As it stands now, the STS-V is supposed to be the M5 competitor, not the CTS-V.

Either way, I'm excited about it. A 500+ BHP CTS should be enough to keep-up with the M5 (or beat it), and should be enough to easily handle the M3, RS4, and C63. And assuming that they will add a coupe (they probably will), the future of the CTS-V looks even better against cars like the S5 and RS5...
 
I think its the fact that GM is using the M5 as the benchmark car when they have said it was an M3 competitor before. As it stands now, the STS-V is supposed to be the M5 competitor, not the CTS-V.
That is true, but the CTS-v also competed with the M5 directly, as the STS-v was no S-Class competitor, and the CTS is way bigger than the M3 (and is a sedan).
 
Yes, I understand the argument. I believe the only reason why it was ever compared to the M3 (or even the CTS versus the 3-series) was based largely on price and the position of the car in the Cadillac lineup.

Either way, we win since we're basing our performance specs off of a great model. I'm eagerly anticipating the eventual debut...
 
Woot! Yes, GM is finaly going after the M5 with there mid size sedan. But if they are going to do that, it needs to have more power than the M5 does. Sory to say but thats the only way they can pull it off. 550 - 600 hp would do it. But wasnt there talk about a 600hp M5? I say they go all the way and shove the full spec 650 hp engine from the "blue devil" in it. Now THAT would blow the doors off a 500 hp M5.

Now they just need to streach the STS by about five inches to make it a true full size model and ditch the DTS.
 
@YSSMAN and Toronado: Would you really expect a company that has no clue how to build a 34+mpg RWD car to be able to build a sports sedan small and light enough to take on the M3? :lol:

In all seriousness, though, I can't wait to see Cadillac step up to the plate with this next CTS-V. I was very impressed with the previous one. 👍
 
More CTS-V news:

[QUOTE-LLN.com]A new round of spy photos show the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V with less disguise than ever before. The car is expected to use the new "LSA" Corvette motor, delivering at least 500 horsepower.

The CTS-V will feature a supercharger integrated into the intake manifold. This is the same setup the upcoming Corvette SS / Blue Devil will have with its LS9 motor. However, while the Corvette SS motor will be hand built at the Performance Build Center in Wixom, MI, the Cadillac's LSA motor will be built in a conventional motor plant.

Automatic and manual transmissions will be available, and an optional paddle shift feature is also anticipated.

Production on the new CTS V-Series will start in September of 2008, and will be limited to about 7000 units annually. Internally, GM is referring to the car as "GMX322 V S/C."

GM's Bob Lutz was recently quoted saying the 2009 CTS-V "will be at a power level only described as unexpectedly high." Then referencing the current BMW M5, Lutz said the CTS-V “will suck the doors off” the competition if the new M5 isn't significantly better.

After driving a prototype, Lutz said "flat-out incredible. I’ve never driven anything like that.” [/QUOTE]







Hot hot hot. Going with 500 S/C BHP sounds like a good idea, and hopefully will perform with the best out there. I keep wondering if they will offer a slushbox this time, although there is a good chance it will be stick-only.
 
I like the black rims. 👍 And "integrated" supercharger sounds great--except that it might make aftermarket tuning impossible for different choices of forced induction. Still, I like the idea.
 
Interesting news from CAR Magazine:

CAR Magazine Online
My, this looks a bit of a goer
Yes, America’s muscle car is back. Cadillac’s red-hot CTS-V is undergoing final testing before the 500bhp monster is unleashed at the Detroit motor show early next year, ready for a European debut this time next year. There’s no word on pricing, but given Cadillac’s desperate need to boost its minuscule European sales base, expect the V to cost around £38,000 – enough to temp some buyers away from its AMG, Motorsport and RS rivals.

Despite the wild rumours circulating about the CTS-V’s proposed powerplant – with extravagant claims of an 800bhp supercharged V8 topping the wish list – CAR’s sources say that the Cadillac will be powered by the formidable 7.0-litre smallblock all-alloy V8 found under the Corvette Z06’s bonnet. Look closely past this mule’s harlequin disguise and you’ll see the bold power bulges needed to house the V8 engine and still meet stringent pedestrian impact regulations.

It can't be American without a V8...
While lesser CTS models pack direct injection V6 units, only a rumbling V8 would do for the performance flagship. And the LS7 powerplant is one hell of an engine. The dry-sumped bent eight is hand-finished, features titanium con-rods, a forged steel crankshaft and develops 512bhp at 6300rpm and a mighty 470lb ft at 4800rpm, making it GM’s most powerful passenger car engine and largest-displacement small-block to date.

It’s hooked up to a slick Tremec six-speed manual transmission, driving all four wheels through GM’s all-wheel drive architecture that’s been tuned for a natural rear-drive feel. In a bid to trim development costs, it’s likely that the engine will be dropped into the CTS-V wholesale, giving the Cadillac some serious tyre-shredding performance.

So how fast is fast?
Expect the 1900kg CTS-V to blast to 60mph in just under five seconds with electronic limiters calling it a day at an easy 185mph – enough poke to take on both the smaller M3 and bigger M5. But Cadillac’s insiders believe the CTS-V’s intelligent all-wheel drive will give it a useful real-world advantage, allowing drivers to use more power more often.

And after countless laps of the Nürburgring, the top dog Caddy’s wishbone front and multi-link rear suspension, brakes and steering have also been given a dramatic makeover. The big 4866mm-long Cadillac will ride on uprated springs and dampers to keep tighter control on unwanted body movement, while the steering will be tuned for greater feel. This mule even has a roll cage plumbed in, hinting that the CTS-V will also undergo a number of key chassis reinforcements.

But will the chassis deliver what the engine promises?
It should. Behind those 19-inch alloys sit four-piston Brembo brakes gripping 355mm vented discs up front and 365mm vented rotors at the rear. And the CTS-V’s StabiliTrak – Cadillac’s holistic safety system that integrates the car’s four-channel ABS with the full-function traction control and hydraulic brake assist – has been heavily recalibrated to take into account the engine’s performance.

And it will look the part too – the CTS’s striking edgy looks will be complemented by a kerb-kissing body kit, vast mesh-filled front grille, drainpipe-sized twin exhausts, bi-Xenon headlamps and plenty of chrome around the windows, boot lip and grille. The V’s cabin will look equally enticing too, with its trio of deep-set circular dials, sleek centre console, pumping Bose stereo system, grippy front bucket seats and ultra-cool LED interior lights.

Words: Ben Whitworth

An AWD CTS-V with more than 500 BHP? Sounds like they want to go after Audi too...

I think its funny how nobody knows what the hell is going on with this car. I hear about a different engine, transmission, drive setup, etc everywhere I go. I still doubt it will have 600 BHP via the "Blue Devil's" S/C 6.2L V8, but a lot of the photos lends to that picture.

Still, if they did "only" the 7.0L V8 with "only" 505 BHP and an AWD setup, it would still be pretty awesome...
 
I've one of the biggest Cadillac haters in the world. But believe it or not... I've actually eased up on Cadillac in recent times. If I can't stand Hummers [other than the H1], it's Escalades. The field that I'm most attracted to in judging cars is style. Grown up as an art person for all or most of my life. I learn to appreciate things as art and not as whatever. Having said this, Cadillac will need to really step up in the overall performance department to try to better BMW. Making premium cars that are better than BMW is an absolute accomplishment. And if Caddy can pull it off, then more power to this company.

My department is style. With these spy pictures, Cadillac may just build themselves a better mouse trap. You can give a premium car loads of horsepower and performance, but it all means nothing if you can't build a car styled nice enough to reflect its performance. I think style is important with a luxury car because you want to actually be in and around a car that just feels like home away from home. If you have a luxury car that doesn't look luxurious and elegant enough, then who cares? It's why I've prefered cars from Mercedes-Benz and Lexus over Cadillac. Even Audi recently made a commercial poking fun at Lexus in saying that they've made a car "...for people to actually park themselves." I've been in a number of different cars at Houston Auto Show events. I've liked Acuras, Lexus, the Chrysler 300, a few Mercedes-Benz cars, some Jaguars, and maybe some high-end Audis and BMWs. I've never been turned on with Cadillac. Never designed a car I'd actually WANT or care about someday. Only Cadillacs I've ever liked were both racing models- the Cadillac Northstar LMP (both generations) and the CTS-V race car in Speed GT. But in terms of road-going Cadillacs, never liked them too much. I'm starting to be more fond of the CTS models of today.

Percentage time. What are the chances (out of 100%) that...
1.) ...Cadillac can provide a better product than BMW?
2.) ...Cadillac's newer CTS-V can win the hearts of even European buyers?
3.) ...this company is better regarded than most other luxury cars in their class?
 
Percentage time. What are the chances (out of 100%) that...
1.) ...Cadillac can provide a better product than BMW?
2.) ...Cadillac's newer CTS-V can win the hearts of even European buyers?
3.) ...this company is better regarded than most other luxury cars in their class?

I really like the CTS, and the new CTS and CTS-V are even more impressive than the first ones, but the chances of any of those three happening are very low. I'll say right now that you might as well ignore my opinion on #1, though. :lol:

The chances of #2 have pretty much been explained in the "Corvettes European woes" thread -- american cars are at such a severe disadvantage for sales in Europe (due to price as well as prejudice, justified or otherwise) that the quality and merits of the car don't matter much.

When it comes to #3, though, I think this car and the regular CTS have a chance of at least bringing Cadillac up to the same level as the IS and G35/7. The last CTS was good, but still brought up the rear in the sports sedan market.
 
I'd pretty much agree with Wolfe here, despite my fairly obvious general alliance with all things GM. The new CTS is going to be a stellar product, no matter what model you get, but nothing (IMO) will ever trump the BMW as of now. The hogwash published in the latest Motor Trend really managed to boil my water on the pane ride home today, while the 335i was clearly better than the G37S, it lost because of an $8000 price difference.

I call BS.

The CTS-V will be able to win over people if the quality is good (it should be), if it drives well (remember, standard CTS' start where the CTS-V left off), and comes at a decent price (well, we'll see).

Either way, the CTS and the CTS-V for that matter won't have a problem with cars like the G35/7 and the IS, although I think the new C-Class will be its best overall competitor. Its still pretty tough to call, but we're only a few months away from the debut of the standard model, about a year from the CTS-V. Depending on power outputs, the CTS-V should be able to run with the M5 without much a problem, however the RS6 will likely be able to outdo it.

Its a tough call. Nothing is ever really solid on this story, even with the GMI resources.
 
The hogwash published in the latest Motor Trend really managed to boil my water on the pane ride home today, while the 335i was clearly better than the G37S, it lost because of an $8000 price difference.
You know, I find that ironic because I personally believe that for the money the G37 is a way better value, and it is about time that comeone beat the Beamer anyways. I would still buy the 335, but that is just because of that marvelous engine.
 
The hogwash published in the latest Motor Trend really managed to boil my water on the pane ride home today, while the 335i was clearly better than the G37S, it lost because of an $8000 price difference.
Just got my R&T today. Apparently they think the G37S is a clearly superior Autobahn cruiser, while the 335i is a clearly superior track (and backroad) carver. They mentioned the difference in value too (with the G37S having considerably more goodies for the price).
 
It all seems so odd, as most of the magazines come to the same basic outlines of opinions, but the final decisions tend to differ. Car and Driver didn't have a direct comparison between the two, but they seemed to make it pretty clear that they support the BMW in that case, even with the price difference.

Any word from Automobile? They usually follow pretty close to C/D (must be the Ann Arbor air), so I'd assume much the same.

===

Given that Cadillac is likely going to do a coupe version of the CTS, one has to wonder how well that will fare. Given that it is priced against the 3er but sized as a 5er, it makes the whole thing a bit odd, but the power and performance figures should hopefully be a bit closer than before.

I still don't think it will have a hard time with the Japanese cars, but the BMW comparison still seems like a long-shot, and if the C-class is as good as they say, it will likely be the closest measurement.
 
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