The Damage Thread - Best Buy Demo, Now Thats More Like It!

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OK, so what were the cars in Forza 2? Last Gen spec cars? They sure looked the part


Youve obviously made up your mind about your decision. You seem to be a games developer also because you totally KNOW WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT. Im not claiming to know how they done the cars in Forza 2 or 3 but just looking at the cars in both games its obvious enough that the cars have been remodeled.
 
Youve obviously made up your mind about your decision. You seem to be a games developer also because you totally KNOW WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT. Im not claiming to know how they done the cars in Forza 2 or 3 but just looking at the cars in both games its obvious enough that the cars have been remodeled.

That's about a 9 on the tension scale. Well, as I said before this is the first proper Forza on the 360, the other one should be called "Forza 1.5"
 
That's about a 9 on the tension scale. Well, as I said before this is the first proper Forza on the 360, the other one should be called "Forza 1.5"
Yes I do get real annoyed when someone questions me about something I am 80%+ sure of. I also agree about Forza 1.5 because it wasnt much of a step up from Forza 1 graphics wise. But I still am playing the game which I am enjoying a lot. I also apologise for my tone. I am a fan of both games realy.
 
greenwald said they remodeld all the 400cars from scrach with interior view.. and all have damage and roll over.. inn litle over 2 years.. its good for me as a gamer that some wants to get out a new game very 2-3 yers
 
greenwald said they remodeld all the 400cars from scrach with interior view.. and all have damage and roll over.. inn litle over 2 years.. its good for me as a gamer that some wants to get out a new game very 2-3 yers

Wow, that's sad. Maybe Forza 2 should be called Forza 1.1? How terrible were the car models that they had to start over from scratch.

Maybe if they spent their time more wisely like PD and put 4-5 years of development into their game without rushing Forza 1.1 to the market in 2007 they could have had somewhere near 1,000 cars like PD.
 
The problem with fanboys is that they destroy the chance of rational discussion, if it threatens the shrine they've built for GT5. He even said that as long as he got an improvement on GT4 he'd be happy... GT4 was released 5 years ago but as long as it was a bit better he would be happy. Yes, he'd pretty much be happy with anything KY/PD throw his way. But not all people are as shallow and blind sided as that...

Whoah there, sparky.

I'd be happy with an improvement over GT4. GT4 was pretty much perfect for a driving game with a couple of small flaws. There was a car and a track for every (and I mean every) occasion - I've been running GT4 LANs for some years now and I can still find new car/track combinations that people haven't tried before that are enjoyable and themed pick'n'mixes - and let's face it, the core of any game is things to do. GT4 had no shortage of things to do.

What I'd expect of the increased power and storage space of a new console and medium is more cars (check), more tracks (err... pick a translation) and improved visuals (big check). Give me that and I'll be quite content to buzz about in the six-figure car-track combinations in high definition - which would frankly take me the 5 year interval to the next GT game. I'd naturally expect an improvement in the physics - GT4 was a little understeery, but GT5P has almost got it right save for the usual low-speed quirks. I don't have the issues other people seem to have with the sounds, but then my TV isn't the source of the sound...

Everything else is just filler.
Damage? I can live without it - a crash usually screws my laptime anyway even without it and if I want to cars blown into a billion pieces I've got Burnout and GTA4.
Dynamic weather? Feh. I can see how that'd be an aspect of realism which is incredibly annoying as the track conditions change from corner to corner.
Day/night racing? Nice to have, especially on 24hr races, but it's just gloss.
Livery editor? I can certainly imagine wasting a lot of my life on that, but since I already have six-figures car-track combinations to play with it might be a while before I even get to it.
Track editor? Same again.
Photomode? Same again again.
AI? AI may as well not be there in any racing game - they're either rolling roadblocks or uncatchable jackrabbits. I don't really care how smart or dumb they are (and, yes, they are pretty dumb in GT4) because I'm either fast enough to pass them or I'm not.


So ultimately if I get GT4 without its flaws (understeery physics), with more cars, more tracks and better graphics, I'd be pretty happy and would clip around to my heart's content. If they want to tack on some extras, I'll play with them too but I won't miss any of the above things if they aren't there.


Am I a shallow, blind-sided fanboy?
 
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Here, here Famine 👍

I never ran out of things to do with GT4, the only reason I don't play it so much anymore is because GT5P spoilt me with interior view and updated physics, I only go back for the vast variety and Nurburgring. I was thinking that GT5 with 1000 cars and a few key tracks (Nurburgring, Tsukuba, test tracks, hopefully bathurst) GT5 could last me for 10 years in content alone.

I mainly like to drive cars (of all types to their limits), racing comes second so if it happed GT5 had no damage, no dynamic weather, no day/night wont kill it for me at all. They will be nice for online racing and GT mode races but atleast 80% of GT gamesplay for me is just driving cars.
 

AI? AI may as well not be there in any racing game - they're either rolling roadblocks or uncatchable jackrabbits. I don't really care how smart or dumb they are (and, yes, they are pretty dumb in GT4) because I'm either fast enough to pass them or I'm not.

These are my thoughts on AI exactly. Reason why I hope PD pours more effort into online modes then on the AI.

AI has always been "also rans" to me. They're just there to make the rest of the race look pretty and keep me honest. For me that's their job while I grind away at the races earning all the tracks and cars.
 
Famine, with you it's like this:

GT5 has crap AI? well you didn't want it anyway, you play with friends on LAN parties, online or mostly do time attack.

GT5 has unrealistic damage limited only to race cars? Well that's not a problem for you because you only race by yourself in time attack, with other near perfect driving friends online or at LAN parties.

GT5 physics are still not quite as good as they should be? That's perfectly fine for you as it's an improvement over GT4 and the understeer is not as bad as it was.

GT5 doesn't have a livery editor? That's all good as you won't waste any time on designing your own liveries.

Any other GT5 issues others have? You'll be spending endless hours upgrading, tuning and testing cars to perfection, writing detailed spreadsheets and lists for to help other friends to get the best out of GT5.


These are your opinions and, personal ones at that. The other things other games have and GT fans want are fillers for you. And you pretty much made concessions for every shortcoming of GT5 noted by many of the GT fans on this forum.;)

Thing is, Famine, and this may come as a shock to you (just a bit of humour since you apparently find calling me sparky funny), other people's opinions and preferences may differ from yours.:sly:

Now, you didn't personaly atack me for daring to have a negative opinion on GT5, nor did you present your opinions as fact, though you hovered intentionally close to both, especially with the charged question at the end. So I don't think you're a fanboy, but you may be looking for an argument, and I do have better things to do, to get into that.:indiff:
 
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but you may be looking for an argument, and I do have better things to do, to get into that.:indiff:

If you had better things to do you wouldn't be on a forum of a game you dislike and keep posting ur negative opinions about every day.. so no, you don't have better things to do than tell us why you don't like GT... and frankly no matter how much you say you don't like how GT5 is going to be, it's not gonna change the minds of the people who say they do like it the way it is.. so yeh.. find something better to do, cause we all now know ur stance towards GT after reading it several time, listing it over and over again won't change a thing ;)
 
If you had better things to do, you wouldn't be on a forum of a game you dislike and keep posting your negative opinions about every day... So no, you don't have better things to do than tell us why you don't like GT... And frankly, no matter how much you say you don't like how GT5 is going to be, it's not gonna change the minds of the people who say they do like it the way it is... So yeah... Find something better to do, because we all now know your stance towards GT after reading it several time, listing it over and over again won't change a thing. ;)

Now that's more like it, another one out of the woodwork.:dopey:

I'm off to bed got work early in the morning. Thank you very much! Good Night!:cool:
 
Now that's more like it, another one out of the woodwork.:dopey:

I'm off to bed got work early in the morning. Thank you very much! Good Night!:cool:

Cobra, your my hero, not.

What exactly is your arguement?

I am another one who would be happy with GT4 with GT5 Prologues enhancements, what do you find so difficult to understand about that? Don't bother answering that, because I don't really care what you think, I will be like a pig in s**t when GT5 comes out, what will you be doing? Let me guess, posting here and feeling important while everyone else is having the time of their lives racing GT5?

And why is everyone so hung up on the bad A.I? The only time I have raced the A.I was to complete the events, about 1% of races I have had, the other 99% are online races, mind you, some of the Real Inteligence online leaves alot to be desired! So apart from the dodgy A.I. what is your major gripe with GT5 (what we have seen so far) I assume you have played GT5 Prologue?
 
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I guess many people feel like Famine and so am i. Changing to many things about the Gran Turismo Series would probably kill the spirit, the heart of the game. I love GT4 and i only stoped playing it, because GT5P came out, which had the better visuals and better physics.

I dont want PD to make a game like al lthe others out there, they allways had their own style, they had character and you feel connected to the cars, even though the game has its fair share of flaws.
The AI was my biggest concern ever since, but they made some improvements which i really like. The crashphysics (i dont mean the damage) have been enhenced and ao the AI is no longer moving guard railings, now they actually respond to crashes more realisticly, just like the car you are driving.

These improvements in addition to the 1000 cars, the tracks and the COCKPIT view make GT5 my most wanted game of this generation. Iam looking foreward to a good time with the game and nearly endless fun, just like i had with GT4. Every other improvement is nice to have, but i do not really need it.

I have many other racing games and all of them have their flaws, but Gran Turismo somehow had all the good things i wanted and bad things i didnt care about. It always feels like coming home.
 
GT5 has crap AI? well you didn't want it anyway, you play with friends on LAN parties, online or mostly do time attack.

GT5 has unrealistic damage limited only to race cars? Well that's not a problem for you because you only race by yourself in time attack, with other near perfect driving friends online or at LAN parties.

GT5 physics are still not quite as good as they should be? That's perfectly fine for you as it's an improvement over GT4 and the understeer is not as bad as it was.

GT5 doesn't have a livery editor? That's all good as you won't waste any time on designing your own liveries.

Any other GT5 issues others have? You'll be spending endless hours upgrading, tuning and testing cars to perfection, writing detailed spreadsheets and lists for to help other friends to get the best out of GT5.

Luckily you don't need to interpret what I said. Just read it. As it happens I don't know anything about GT5 or its contents as yet but, as I said, so long as the things I actually care about are better, I don't care.

I'm sure I'd get a kick out of realistic damage and weather and day/night cycles and livery editors and track editors and physics so realistic that I can't drive anything over 400hp with any kind of purpose. But they're all things which are layered on top of what I care about. If they're there, woo. If they aren't, meh.


These are your opinions and, personal ones at that. The other things other games have and GT fans want are fillers for you. And you pretty much made concessions for every shortcoming of GT5 noted by many of the GT fans on this forum.;)

Some GT fans. Take note of your very next paragraph:

Thing is, Famine, and this may come as a shock to you (just a bit of humour since you apparently find calling me sparky funny), other people's opinions and preferences may differ from yours.:sly:

I'm almost positive that some people will disagree vehemently. I'm almost positive that some people will agree vigourously. I can all-but-guarantee there'll be a whole spectrum of people in-between.

But here's the rub: I don't care.

I don't care if someone is disappointed in an aspect of GT4, because their disappointment doesn't affect my enjoyment. Similarly I don't care if someone wants something different to what I want from GT5, because it doesn't affect what I want. Or, in fact, if they agree with me. I'll enjoy what I enjoy no matter how many or few people join in.


Now, you didn't personaly atack me for daring to have a negative opinion on GT5, nor did you present your opinions as fact, though you hovered intentionally close to both, especially with the charged question at the end.

I didn't hover anywhere near to attacking you or presenting opinions as fact. Check all the "I" in there - it should be patently obvious that I'm stating personal preference.

It was your contention that people who would be happy with GT5 being GT4 with more cars, tracks and better graphics and nothing else were "shallow and blind-sided" and "fanboys". I'd be happy with that so, by your argument, I must be as described. I merely invited you to actually say it by way of a direct question.


So I don't think you're a fanboy, but you may be looking for an argument, and I do have better things to do, to get into that.:indiff:

Since you've determined that I'm not a "fanboy", despite being exactly what you described a fanboy as, I question your original conclusion and invite a rewording.
 
All racing games have unrealistic damage. You can't die for starters.

Actually, SBK08 (probably 09, too) has "rider health," and although damage isn't visible in 08 (heard it is in 09), you can deplete this health and your race is over. Even one crash at a high enough speed is enough to take you, or your bike, out.
 
Am I a shallow, blind-sided fanboy?

Hate to say it Famine, but by my criteria (someone who can only see good, and will rationalize out any and all bad by virtue of searching out a situation in which it wouldn't apply, then saying that's why it's not important regardless of the fact it's only not important to those in THAT situation)... yeah... I would say you are a blind sided fanboy...

First off, you totally excuse bad AI becuase you run lan parties and have little use for the AI and rightly see that AI just isn't up to par with human racers. In all fairness, a guy who runs LAN parties all the time has that luxury.

But for the VAST majority of people, that is not a luxury we have and the AI is a large part of the experience. I mean that's who most of us will be spending hours racing against as we progress through the game to unlock and earn all our cars right?

Sure we have online, but I find online to be MORE annoying than AI many times because I don't get to run LAN parties where everyone is decent. Almost all my online experiences involve at least half a course of nooblets. Sure a good friends list can help avoid that, but it still stands, single player is where a lot of people will spend a lot of time so any issues with it are legit issues, not just excuseable as "who needs that" situations.

I mean PD programmed an extensive career mode around SP... it's obviously not the the red headed step child of game modes.

I am also surprised to see your list of wants from a next gen game... you want more and prettier and that's it? So by those rational if I dressed up Pole Position enough and gave it an ass load of really awesome looking cars and tracks and it still played like the original Pole Position, that would be ok right? Because it's got more and it's prettier and let's admit it, Pole Positions was hot **** when it came out. If it was hot **** then and we dressed it up and made it bigger every generation, it must still be hot **** now right?

Bigger and more but still the same problems plaguing, that's not what got people riled up at Madden right?

It sounds like you value the sandbox abilities more than the simulation abilities. I mean, why not play Midnight club? There are litterally limitless courses you can take and with traffic no two races will be the same! Why limit yourself to GT?

Sorry but when I see the word simulator in the tag line, I expect them to be focusing on simulating whatever it is they are showing us.

If that's truly all it takes to make you happy, then I am glad your expectations are so low becuase I think you will find yourself pleased often.

But yeah, sorry Famine, I have to say, honestly you are excusing and rationlizing out flaws and unfulfilled promises becuase you don't happen to care about them. It sounds to me like unless GT5 actually got WORSE than GT4 you would be all smiles and rainbows... I will venture to say that just doesn't cut it for the vast majority and that yes, in all honesty, that does make you a fanboy.
 
Wow I turn in for the night, and come back to see this thread become a fanboy accusation thread.

Listen guys whatever Famine says is what he says. No need to go and say he is a fanboy. That is quite childish actually. Everybody has their own standards and expectations. Famine just happens to be happy with what he sees so far. So why say he is a fanboy?
 
Wow I turn in for the night, and come back to see this thread become a fanboy accusation thread.

Listen guys whatever Famine says is what he says. No need to go and say he is a fanboy. That is quite childish actually. Everybody has their own standards and expectations. Famine just happens to be happy with what he sees so far. So why say he is a fanboy?

Actually he asked the question, I just answered the question he asked.
 
Hate to say it Famine, but by my criteria (someone who can only see good, and will rationalize out any and all bad by virtue of searching out a situation in which it wouldn't apply, then saying that's why it's not important regardless of the fact it's only not important to those in THAT situation)... yeah... I would say you are a blind sided fanboy...

Fair enough. You're hopelessly wrong, but that's your call.

First off, you totally excuse bad AI becuase you run lan parties and have little use for the AI and rightly see that AI just isn't up to par with human racers. In all fairness, a guy who runs LAN parties all the time has that luxury.

But for the VAST majority of people, that is not a luxury we have and the AI is a large part of the experience. I mean that's who most of us will be spending hours racing against as we progress through the game to unlock and earn all our cars right?

Did I excuse bad AI? Or did I point out that it was there and I didn't care about it? And where does the LAN party comment come into it? Did I reference the AI in that part somewhere?

Would a fanboy even say that the AI was bad in the first place?

You might also like to note that I completed GT4 entirely in A-Spec mode.


I am also surprised to see your list of wants from a next gen game... you want more and prettier and that's it? So by those rational if I dressed up Pole Position enough and gave it an ass load of really awesome looking cars and tracks and it still played like the original Pole Position, that would be ok right? Because it's got more and it's prettier and let's admit it, Pole Positions was hot **** when it came out. If it was hot **** then and we dressed it up and made it bigger every generation, it must still be hot **** now right?

I never played Pole Position. If it was great and people liked it, all power to them.

Bigger and more but still the same problems plaguing, that's not what got people riled up at Madden right?

I never played Madden. If it was great and people liked it, all power to them.

If that's truly all it takes to make you happy, then I am glad your expectations are so low becuase I think you will find yourself pleased often.

Actually I'm quite notoriously hard to please.

But yeah, sorry Famine, I have to say, honestly you are excusing and rationlizing out flaws and unfulfilled promises becuase you don't happen to care about them. It sounds to me like unless GT5 actually got WORSE than GT4 you would be all smiles and rainbows... I will venture to say that just doesn't cut it for the vast majority and that yes, in all honesty, that does make you a fanboy.

Fanboys can see no wrong in their chosen preference. I've pointed out that GT4 has flaws. I've mentioned what's bad about it. I haven't excused it in any way. I've even said that I hope GT5 irons out those flaws. I've excused nothing.

Hardly fanboyish to point out flaws. As you say yourself:


Hate to say it Famine, but by my criteria (someone who can only see good

Bam.

Famine
So ultimately if I get GT4 without its flaws (understeery physics), with more cars, more tracks and better graphics, I'd be pretty happy and would clip around to my heart's content. If they want to tack on some extras, I'll play with them too but I won't miss any of the above things if they aren't there.
 
And Famine didn't really say anything negative about Forza before he asked that question. He noted some negatives about GT4, which is makes him a realist, not a fanboy.
 
These are my thoughts on AI exactly. Reason why I hope PD pours more effort into online modes then on the AI.

AI has always been "also rans" to me. They're just there to make the rest of the race look pretty and keep me honest. For me that's their job while I grind away at the races earning all the tracks and cars.

You should really try a game where the AI is goood... it makes a world of difference and might change how you look at it. I played the crap out of GT4 and put up with the AI just like you did, but when playing TOCA, grinding through the races wasn't just what there was to do, it was FUN... it felt like RACING...

Like Jay who got spoiled by good looking GTP and had trouble accepting GT4, I got spoiled by games with decent AI and have trouble excusing it an anything now.
 
Fair enough. You're hopelessly wrong, but that's your call.

Ok... how would you define a fanboy that makes my definition so wrong?

Did I excuse bad AI? Or did I point out that it was there and I didn't care about it? And where does the LAN party comment come into it? Did I reference the AI in that part somewhere?


You said you run lans, when you run lans, you have no worry for how good or bad AI is. You have a work around that is about as good as it gets for bad AI: you don't need it.

Here is you rationlizing out things that aren't in the game (regardless of if they were promised -directly or indirectly- to be in the game)

Everything else is just filler.
Damage? I can live without it - a crash usually screws my laptime anyway even without it and if I want to cars blown into a billion pieces I've got Burnout and GTA4.
Dynamic weather? Feh. I can see how that'd be an aspect of realism which is incredibly annoying as the track conditions change from corner to corner.
Day/night racing? Nice to have, especially on 24hr races, but it's just gloss.
Livery editor? I can certainly imagine wasting a lot of my life on that, but since I already have six-figures car-track combinations to play with it might be a while before I even get to it.
Track editor? Same again.
Photomode? Same again again.
AI? AI may as well not be there in any racing game - they're either rolling roadblocks or uncatchable jackrabbits. I don't really care how smart or dumb they are (and, yes, they are pretty dumb in GT4) because I'm either fast enough to pass them or I'm not.

Basically, you just excused the portions of the game that were lacking becuase you could live without them. Hey that's great... but some of us really want them and some of those things were supposed to be given to us. Can I live without them sure! But the expectation was set, so whether I can live without them or not isn't the point, it's whether they will be delivered or not.

So things that are realistic (ie simulator type things) are excused as: I can live without it becuse it screws my lap times; annoying; just gloss; and something you would not get around to using.

The funny thing is that things I could live without and just gloss pretty much covers the majority of improvements from GT4 to GT5....

Things I could live without: Interior modeling, looks awesome, but not necessary. More cars, who doesn't want more right? But do I need 1000 cars? I certainly could live without that many.

Just gloss? Well what do you call spending all your time and effort on making the cars super eye candy instead of focusing on improving the simulation?

Would a fanboy even say that the AI was bad in the first place?

Sure! They do all the time! Fanboys try to claim something is not there as much as possible finding one off reasons why maybe some quirk is intentional and not really a bug or why it doesn't really happen. But if that's just not possible and it's black and white bad, then the next step of a fanboy is to rationlize or dismiss it entirely. Perhaps something like "Who cars if crash physics are unrealistic IF YOU WERE A GOOD DRIVER YOU WOULDN'T CRASH!"

Remember a fanboy only sees good and rationlizes out any bad so that they can keep their position of only seeing good.

I never played Pole Position. If it was great and people liked it, all power to them.

Here http://tinyurl.com/md6vwb

Basically your logic says that games don't have to get better, they just have to get bigger and prettier. Which is pretty flawed becaues a big pretty versino of pole position that still played like pole position today would be totally inexcuseable and suck, while playing like pole position back in the day was AWESOME.

Point? If YOU are happy with more eye candy but lack of improvements in the meat of the game, then ok, but I say that does not represent the majority of people. It's generally accepted that people want more AND better, not just more unless better isn't attainable (and btw there is no reason better isn't attainable in the whole GT4->GT5 cycle).

I never played Madden. If it was great and people liked it, all power to them.

Suffice it to say, it was basically the same for years but prettier. This got a LOT of people heated and for legitimate reason.

Fanboys can see no wrong in their chosen preference. I've pointed out that GT4 has flaws. I've mentioned what's bad about it. I haven't excused it in any way. I've even said that I hope GT5 irons out those flaws. I've excused nothing.

Actually you did excuse all of it (see above) one way or another. It either wasn't important, you could live without it or who cares is what I get for pretty much all the issues GT has.

Bam.[/QUOTE]

Well let's see, according to you the flaws (note plural) in GT4 are

So ultimately if I get GT4 without its flaws (understeery physics), with more cars, more tracks and better graphics, I'd be pretty happy and would clip around to my heart's content. If they want to tack on some extras, I'll play with them too but I won't miss any of the above things if they aren't there.

Understeery physics. Apparently that is the only flaw in GT4? Apparently the AI wasn't flawed in GT4? There were no other flaws in GT4 that could use addressing?

So Bam right back atcha... fanboyism is a weird thing... it's like being drunk, when it's working right, it makes you blind to seeing that it's effecting you.
 
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Devedander, what are you trying to achieve by stating that Famine is a fanboy? It doesn't effect you in anyway in this forum, or in the outside world.
 
I think "Fanboy" is being thrown around here way too much right about now. We've got people who repeatidly point out flaws in GT5 in comparison to other games being called "fanboys" and we got people who would love GT5 to be a improved GT4 being called "fanboy" just because they don't feel as obligated to make a big fuss out those same flaws. Quite honestly, this feels more like a argument on whats the real definition of a "fanboy" them a thread partaining to the title subject.


You might also like to note that I completed GT4 entirely in A-Spec mode.

Good Grief, how in the hell did you make enough time for the 24 hour races?:sick:
 
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