The F1 driver transfer discussion/speculation archiveFormula 1

[Eva]

I'm not sure you're correct in that.

In other news, Sky reported earlier that VdG is effectively persona non grata in the paddock and has been given a spare office in Race Control in which to rest. Nasr and Ericsson are out of the cars and it looks certain that Sauber won't run in this session (if they run in any FP this weekend).

I'm almost positive that they won't be starting at all this weekend unless VDG relents and gets a head start to Malaysia.

 

[mustafur]

I'm not sure you're correct in that.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_Australia

Basically every Grand Prix Covered(Except Bahrain, Canada and Japan, but that list is just of countries that have had History of extradition).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Driver contracts have to be respected, because when you do things like this it can really damage a drivers chance of getting a drive elsewhere as they are not spending time looking for drives when they could of if they knew the situation.

It's very hard to get a Race seat anywhere if your out of action for a year, as Racing is a very form based Sport.

so tell us the details then because you seem sure of what your spouting like usual, others though on both sides are son quick to say that what they think is so absolute. So please for the sake of this discussion and debate give is the full details of the contract so we can all be so sure as you are right now. If you can't then please stop coming in here and giving false info or an idea of who the true victim is or not. All the courts seem to agree on is that the Swedish Court's decision was just and they've upheld it for Australia. As for all the other important bits we don't know.

 

[mustafur]

so tell us the details then because you seem sure of what your spouting like usual, others though on both sides are son quick to say that what they think is so absolute. So please for the sake of this discussion and debate give is the full details of the contract so we can all be so sure as you are right now. If you can't then please stop coming in here and giving false info or an idea of who the true victim is or not. All the courts seem to agree on is that the Swedish Court's decision was just and they've upheld it for Australia. As for all the other important bits we don't know.

Where did I say I knew something I didn't?

All I said was driver contracts have to be respected, as in what is in the actual contract has to be respected.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_Australia

Basically every Grand Prix Covered(Except Bahrain, Canada and Japan, but that list is just of countries that have had History of extradition).

No, that link covers the nature and means of extradition. That isn't unusual internationally. Unless you're suggesting that the whole of the Sauber team could somehow be considered a criminal fugitive then you're way off the mark. Australian courts have no jurisdiction elsewhere, fact.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Where did I say I knew something I didn't?

All I said was driver contracts have to be respected, as in what is in the actual contract has to be respected.

You just said the VdG is the victim in all this, as if people should stop blaming him to some degree. We have no idea what was not respected or to what degree Sauber thought they were in the right, or why a supposedly terminated contract between the two still holds water at this moment. So unless you have the info why specify who is right or wrong, when all we know is that Swiss(not Sweden) court said VdG should have a seat based on to some part of agreed terms between the two parties...

 

[mustafur]

You just said the VdG is the victim in all this, as if people should stop blaming him to some degree. We have no idea what was not respected or to what degree Sauber thought they were in the right, or why a supposedly terminated contract between the two still holds water at this moment. So unless you have the info why specify who is right or wrong, when all we know is that Swiss(not Sweden) court said VdG should have a seat based on to some part of agreed terms between the two parties...

What we do know is he is infact wronged, atleast according to law, and this has been confirmed 3 times in two countries.

Getting the details is irrelevent unless we are a judiciary.

No, that link covers the nature and means of extradition. That isn't unusual internationally. Unless you're suggesting that the whole of the Sauber team could somehow be considered a criminal fugitive then you're way off the mark. Australian courts have no jurisdiction elsewhere, fact.

Yes they don't, unless they have a extradition treaty saying they do recognise Australian Law.

 

[mustafur]

Delete.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What we do know is he is infact wronged, atleast according to law, and this has been confirmed 3 times in two countries.

Getting the details is irrelevent unless we are a judiciary.

How is it irrelevant? There are many questions left unanswered that are quite important to understanding the situation. You seem to be describing some working class hero, being wronged by the powerful corp.

 

[mustafur]

How is it irrelevant? There are many questions left unanswered that are quite important to understanding the situation. You seem to be describing some working class hero, being wronged by the powerful corp.

But I never said that, thats in your head.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes they don't, unless they have a extradition treaty saying they do recognise Australian Law.

This is a contract case, not a criminal case.

 

[mustafur]

This is a contract case, not a criminal case.

Would it not turn to a criminal case if they refused to acknowledge the verdict?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Would it not turn to a criminal case if they refused to acknowledge the verdict?

So you are suggesting that Sauber might become criminal fugitives? The point of extradition treaties is not that countries allow jurisdiction of foreign courts but that they will allow extradition for criminal trials. In this case that wouldn't be an appropriate or normal use of extradition law.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But I never said that, thats in your head.

No one said you did say that, if you want to cherry pick what you said and make it seem like in only has a singular linear meaning when you are in fact giving off some different impression, that's you. But the comments recently say otherwise. That Sauber are with out a doubt in a massive fault and Van Der Garde is a hapless victim.
I see both parties at fault, but Sauber more so and thus Van Der Garde wins, in the end they both lose.

Oh and for the implication that VdG is without a doubt right and Sauber is wrong even without directly saying it word for word you sure make it seem that way

I like how basically everyone is against him thinking he has no case and he has won all 3 appearances in court he has done.

Next time ladies and gentleman don't get your misguided opinions mixed with facts.

End of the day, if he didn't believe in his abilities he wouldn't be in F1 in the first place.

Couch potato's don't understand.

Lets blame the person wronged, not the person who signed too many contracts for too few seats.

Sauber, the gold digger of race teams.

I think once all the facts are given on to what the contract agreement was and what exactly was the pivotal point that gave it to VdG then I can say without a doubt who was in the wrong more so. From many perspective yes Sauber did something wrong, but there has been tons of info to say that VdG gave them reason to feel they could release him for something more beneficial to them.

 

[mustafur]

I would say all of them again right now all day.

The last one was based on them moving their lesser paying driver Ericsson aside to give to VDG(how I know this is simply based on the title sponser).

I haven't gone to details on anything though all I have gone by is what we know, the fact he won his case in the Eyes of the law(AKA what actually matters).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I would say all of them again right now all day.

The last one was based on them moving their lesser paying driver Ericsson aside to give to VDG(how I know this is simply based on the title sponser).

I haven't gone to details on anything though all I have gone by is what we know, the fact he won his case in the Eyes of the law(AKA what actually matters).

Well that seems to make sense seeing that if Nasr is paying more to drive for him he has a bit more to lose than Ericsson. It doesn't make them Gold Diggers it means that they have a larger responsibility to Nasr who are the title sponsors of the team rather than ME. Who they haven't removed from the team while they sort this all out.

Too bad that isn't all that matters, what we know is yes he can drive, but if there are other stipulation of said contract then he'll be out of that same seat not too long for now. No contract is air tight to where VdG can think he'll be there the entire season. So no there is plenty more that matters then "oh he won, pack it up no more to discuss", but by all means you don't have to continue on you can enjoy the V8s race instead.

 

[mustafur]

Well it's clear there is bias against VDG and in return me, numerous people here most notably PM has been carrying on the whole time with misguided information coming from himself that all got disputed.

But instead you go for the person who really hasn't said anything other then what is known.

Oh and yes im enjoying the V8s, 888 is no where and that makes a race for me.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This controversy needs a name. I've seen "seatgate", "contractgate", "Saubergate" and even "Melbournegate".

Personally, I like to call it "van der Gate".

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This controversy needs a name. I've seen "seatgate", "contractgate", "Saubergate" and even "Melbournegate".

Personally, I like to call it "van der Gate".

Rolls off the tongue so much nicer as well than those others. Get it circulating around a few F1 forums and racing magazine comment boards and Sky and NBC and BBC will all pick it up.

Well it's clear there is bias against VDG and in return me, numerous people here most notably PM has been carrying on the whole time with misguided information coming from himself that all got disputed.

But instead you go for the person who really hasn't said anything other then what is known.

Oh and yes im enjoying the V8s, 888 is no where and that makes a race for me.

I go for the person that sounds assured he was right and only fully came on until the ruling started. PM yeah, stuck more to Sauber than VdG due to the nature of how these drivers act. But he never claimed he was right nor told people that didn't understand and were the equivalent of arm chair judges (couch potatoes in most regions goes along the lines of an unemployed person that usually does nothing more than this all day or some other activity similar).

Why you seemed to implicate yourself as the moral arbiter of all things correctly understood on this is beyond me, why you now feel as if you should shift the blame is beyond me.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There's been a one-hour delay before the van der Gate case resumes, with Adam Cooper suggesting that a resolution may be found.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The judge has called for another recess. It seems he is considering delaying a verdict until after the race.

 

[Soundtrack]

... Adam Cooper suggesting that a resolution may be found.

A settlement is the best thing that can happen, because his latest post suggest the next court round could make things a lot more messy. (as if the situation wasn't enough)


On the point of foreign enforcement that is supposedly regulated by the 1958 New York convention.

Here are the adhering countries.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

According to Johnny Herbert, there is more to the story, something to do with van der Garde's father-in-law, his primary backer. What that might be remains to be seen.

A settlement is the best thing that can happen, because his latest post suggest the next court round could make things a lot more messy.

Possibly, but the thing to remember is that van der Garde is pursing the seat as aggressively as Sauber are resisting it. Imprisoning Kaltenborn for contempt is an extreme step, and I doubt that the courts will appreciate it. Giving Sauber a reprieve and resolving it when there is substantially less pressure of a deadline is a sensible way forward.

 

[Soundtrack]

Imprisoning Kaltenborn for contempt is an extreme step, and I doubt that the courts will appreciate it.

From a juridic perspective VDG seems in a pretty strong position, not sure he or his counsellor is incline to loose that ground on the basis of an abusive procedure.

Thinking he could comfortably end in the car after threatening Team principal of imprisonment is a bit beyond me. Unless the Big Daddy in Law related rumours were to come true, but that would be a particularly hostile takeover.

 

[TenEightyOne]

On the point of foreign enforcement that is supposedly regulated by the 1958 New York convention.

Here are the adhering countries.

That's interesting. The convention's wording suggests that although the latest court action may not be supported the original Swiss arbitrator's decision is. However, if that's the case (which it appears to be) then I'm surprised that we haven't heard that convention cited previously to now.

 

[Imari]

Thinking he could comfortably end in the car after threatening Team principal of imprisonment is a bit beyond me. Unless the Big Daddy in Law related rumours were to come true, but that would be a particularly hostile takeover.

This is surely beyond just getting a drive at this point. If he ultimately wins, I'd give him about half an hour in the garage before some disgruntled engineer "slipped" and caressed his head with a spanner.

He must have some greater plan of how to parlay this into something useful to him, like a buy out of the team, but that seems like an awfully big reach. Maybe he's just a moron, and all the people advising him are morons too. Seems unlikely, but weirder things have happened.

For my money, he shouldn't have been going for the full drive from the beginning anyway. Something like guaranteed FP1 drives for the rest of the season and a watertight contract for 2016 with massive (like, "your team is now bankrupt" massive) penalty clauses if they chose not to run him would probably have been smarter. It's all well and good to go after the race seat, but Sauber can't give what they don't have.

He should have been out to take everything that they could give that wasn't nailed down, and consolidate his future that way. This way, he may well win but he'll probably get nothing out of it, other than the satisfaction of destroying an (admittedly fairly poorly managed) F1 team.

 

[Eva]

The sad part to all of this is that Sauber were consistently able to pull times close with everyone in pre-season testing last I checked. They had something there.

 

[TenEightyOne]

An interesting theory that I saw on Facebook (that infamous last-bastion of common sense) was that if Sauber do indeed go bust then VdG's backers may buy the team out for a bargain-basement price.

World's most expensive scalextric for the world's most spoilt boy.

 

[Pupik]

Personally, I like to call it "van der Gate".

"Sauber Grapes".

 

[spacecowboy73]

An interesting theory that I saw on Facebook (that infamous last-bastion of common sense) was that if Sauber do indeed go bust then VdG's backers may buy the team out for a bargain-basement price.

World's most expensive scalextric for the world's most spoilt boy.

Wouldn't they be able to liquidate certain assets first before selling the whole team? Like the wind tunnel? If Christian Horner gets his way that wont be needed anymore.