- 451
- Rotterdam
- Capt_Quarck
However, how do you know which brakes youre using?
The finer points of tuning analysis...
- Thread starter Adrenaline
- 50 comments
- 10,953 views
- 1,124
- TexasTyme214
You would have to Google the car or something similar to it. Normal street cars have track-day-ready brakes so they don't melt in three turns, however.
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
Any thoughts on preferred water and oil temps? I don't use cockpit, and the HUD customization is garbage, so I wait for a straight away and cycle to cockpit, check temps, and then cycle back. Just blew a motor at 121* on oil and water in lap 6 of Dubai International and I was babying the car, short shifting etc. Radiator opening was at 55% and obviously I'll need to go higher, just curious what everyone else is currently considering optimum? 121C = 250F which is high, but not really race car blown motor high. Although some google searching leads me to believe you want to hover around 190-200F. So then I'm curious does anyone have any general rules of thumb, 1% of opening = 3* cooler temps, or some rough estimates?
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
I've had gt3 cars radiator at 35% and they were fine. Te gt3 cars blow up at 140-145 and mine usually run around 100-110. I haven't experimented that much though with the radiator opening.
Dubai nights are cool, but in day it's obviously hot as hell.
- 451
- Rotterdam
- Capt_Quarck
I literally posted this a couple posts back
engine temp should not exceed 100C for longer races, both for water and oil.
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- 41
- United States
- Stony17
maybe try an assymetrical tire pressure setup. for example add a few lbs of pressure to the colder tire and see if that brings up temp without upsetting stability.I ran into this at Laguna Seca, as the track is dominated by left turns, the left front tire never got to the temps of my other 3. I kept lowering the pressure in the tire, until it got as hot as I wanted.
I don't know if this is right, hell I don't even know if it's beneficial, but it's the quick fix I've been using until I learn otherwise. I considered altering the spring rate to try and put more pressure, but I was worried the car would react differently on left and right corners which might screw me up. I wish people with more tuning knowledge would chime in, I'm really just going off of trial and error.
my interpretation of tire pressure is that higher pressure means more heat faster but also loses grip as it rises. lowering pressure will cause tires to heat up slower but grip is improved. although going too far in either direction will be detrimental. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me as I am also learning tune options and by no means am I a pro
I have noticed that downshifting too early too often will blow engines, especially on the karts, try to avoid downshifting before you break or at least try to lift off accelerator and wait a moment for the revs to drop before downshifting. also avoid rapid multuiple gear downshifts, I.e. don't go from 5th to 3rd as fast as u can shift.. give the gears and the engine a moment to jive up with each other.
may need to adjust your radiator air flow setting if its available on the car your using
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- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
That triple post though.
What I'm finding with overheating tires is it happens for one of two reasons.
Either there is lack of grip so the tire is sliping in which case a lower pressure will add more grip and the tire will have less slip which means less friction and less heat.
The second example is when there are high lateral loads going through the tires. Tracks like Catalunya and Silverstone are good examples where you might not have any tire slip but still have overheating tires. Increaseing the pressure in these situations works for me but often isn't a cure just a band-aid. In my eyes the increase in pressure allows less contact patch so that when the tire is being deformed from the lateral load, less of the tire is being pushed into the track and it won't deform as much with a higher pressure.
What I'm finding with overheating tires is it happens for one of two reasons.
Either there is lack of grip so the tire is sliping in which case a lower pressure will add more grip and the tire will have less slip which means less friction and less heat.
The second example is when there are high lateral loads going through the tires. Tracks like Catalunya and Silverstone are good examples where you might not have any tire slip but still have overheating tires. Increaseing the pressure in these situations works for me but often isn't a cure just a band-aid. In my eyes the increase in pressure allows less contact patch so that when the tire is being deformed from the lateral load, less of the tire is being pushed into the track and it won't deform as much with a higher pressure.
- 6,318
- West Virginia
- HBR-Roadhog
- HBR Roadhog
I've not played a lot with tire pressures yet in the game but it appears that lower pressure= higher temp+ more grip and higher pressure = lower temp+lower grip.
While it is true that sliding will heat a tire up so will the flexing of the tires lower pressure = more rolling resistance and more tire flex which can result in more heat build up. Higher pressures = less rolling resistance and less tire flex which results in less heat.
While it is true that sliding will heat a tire up so will the flexing of the tires lower pressure = more rolling resistance and more tire flex which can result in more heat build up. Higher pressures = less rolling resistance and less tire flex which results in less heat.
- 8
- Brighton
- PropaneCrazy
Hey there,
this link contains a LOT of usefull information about the tuning in pCARS.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22501-Project-Cars-Tuning-Guide-Spring-amp-castor-guide-(3C-amp-3D)-Now-live!
The 2nd post in that thread explains that optimum tyre temp is around 80-100C
Oil temp should not exceed 100C for longer races
Temperature difference between inside and outside of the tyre should not exceed 10C
Especially the Q&A part is very interesting. a bit of a read though
And here is a bit of information (not a lot) about the telemetry:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23037-Telemetry-detail
This is a general tuning guide with a lot of helpfull tips:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23371-Car-setup-guide
Thanks for this. I have so much reading to do...
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
Has anyone done any of their own testing for tire temps across the tire?
If Optimal Tire Temp is assumed to be 210 for a GT3 car, which do you prefer?
RF: I210 C210 O210
or
RF: I210 C205 O200
or
RF: I215 C210 O205
This far my goal is to get 210 across the tire. Some reading material tells you that you want the inside to be 10F hotter than the outside for maximum grip. I adjusted camber to try and achieve this goal, but my lap times, and car feel both suffered upon doing so. Curious if anyone else has tries this, and what their personal results were.
If Optimal Tire Temp is assumed to be 210 for a GT3 car, which do you prefer?
RF: I210 C210 O210
or
RF: I210 C205 O200
or
RF: I215 C210 O205
This far my goal is to get 210 across the tire. Some reading material tells you that you want the inside to be 10F hotter than the outside for maximum grip. I adjusted camber to try and achieve this goal, but my lap times, and car feel both suffered upon doing so. Curious if anyone else has tries this, and what their personal results were.
Preferably, I try to have 205 across the board, if not, 1-3 degrees higher on the outside.
- 156
- United Kingdom
Hi all, it's good to see there are other people looking to analyse the telemetry - I didn't get much interest in something similar on the official PC forum. I've done a load of research into the telemetry etc. I'll stick my findings here.
Tyre temperature vs. tyre pressure
For this testing a basically played with tyre pressure and noted how it affected the maximum temperature of the tyre once up to temperature.
Starting at the minimum pressure your tyre gets very hot. Then as you add pressure the max temperature reached slowly goes down until you get to a "critical pressure". Further increasing tyre pressure past this point causes the max temperature reached to go up again, and at a higher rate than an underinflated tyre, i.e. a small increase in pressure results in a big increase in temperature.
I'm not sure how this relates to grip, but I assume an overheated tyre produces less grip. So if you have a tyre that is overheating the first thing to try is to drop the pressure a small amount and see if it makes things worse or better.
As an aside, there seems to be a train of though that you should be trying to get your tyre temperatures equal left to right on the car. IMHO this is wrong. If you are driving around a clockwise circuit the left hand tyres are going to get worked harder, and therefore are going to get hotter, than the right hand tyres. If that doesn't happen then something is very wrong with the tune! Instead we should be aiming to get even tyre PRESSURES left to right so that the car handles the same in left hand corners as it does in right hand corners. We can't see tyre pressure in the telemetry right now though.
Suspension
The blue arrow points at a white marker - this marker moves with the suspension but I'm not sure it's useful for much. The red arrow points at a little red block that appears when your bodywork hits the road. It apparently also appears if you hit the bumpstops but I haven't been able to confirm this myself.
"Ride height" is obvious, its how high the car is running from the track. You can still hit bodywork on the track even if this never reaches 0.0.
"Travel" shows how much suspension travel is left before you hit the bump-stops. If you make the bump-stops bigger this number goes down as the bump stop uses up some of the available travel.
"Bumpstop" is the length of the bumpstop. If you make the bumpstop bigger this number increases (duh!). Unfortunately as far as I can tell this number doesn't change as the bumpstop compresses so it's impossible to see when you have truly run out of suspension travel (i.e. when you've compressed the bumpstop and hit the hard limit of suspension travel.
Pressure and Camber vs. tyre temperature distribution
What we expect to see: As tyre pressure goes up, the middle tyre temperature should increase compared to the average of the inner and outer temperatures, and vice versa.
What actually happens: Tyre pressure has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the middle temperature.
What we expect to see: Adding more negative camber should make the inside of the tyre hotter and the outside cooler. Running at 0.0 camber should overheat the outer of the tyre considerably.
What actually happens: The difference between 0.0 camber and maximum negative camber is there but very slight (i.e. it only makes a degree or two difference). The inside of the tyre will always be hotter even if you run 0.0 camber.
I also noted another odd occurrence...normally on a clockwise circuit the amount by which the inside of the tyre is hotter than the outside is MORE on the inside wheels (right hand tyres) than on the outside wheels (left hand tyres). But that doesn't happen in Project Cars - in fact we get the opposite. This is something you will see in every other sim out there.
For example, try taking the Clio around Donington (clockwise). The right hand tyre temperatures will be even across the tyre, whereas the left hand tyre temperatures will be hotter on the inside than the outside.
In conclusion - right now you cannot use tyre temperature telemetry to tune camber.
________________________________________________
Hope that's useful. There's lots of good info in this thread. Hopefully we can find out some more if we work together.
Tyre temperature vs. tyre pressure
For this testing a basically played with tyre pressure and noted how it affected the maximum temperature of the tyre once up to temperature.
Starting at the minimum pressure your tyre gets very hot. Then as you add pressure the max temperature reached slowly goes down until you get to a "critical pressure". Further increasing tyre pressure past this point causes the max temperature reached to go up again, and at a higher rate than an underinflated tyre, i.e. a small increase in pressure results in a big increase in temperature.
I'm not sure how this relates to grip, but I assume an overheated tyre produces less grip. So if you have a tyre that is overheating the first thing to try is to drop the pressure a small amount and see if it makes things worse or better.
As an aside, there seems to be a train of though that you should be trying to get your tyre temperatures equal left to right on the car. IMHO this is wrong. If you are driving around a clockwise circuit the left hand tyres are going to get worked harder, and therefore are going to get hotter, than the right hand tyres. If that doesn't happen then something is very wrong with the tune! Instead we should be aiming to get even tyre PRESSURES left to right so that the car handles the same in left hand corners as it does in right hand corners. We can't see tyre pressure in the telemetry right now though.
Suspension
The blue arrow points at a white marker - this marker moves with the suspension but I'm not sure it's useful for much. The red arrow points at a little red block that appears when your bodywork hits the road. It apparently also appears if you hit the bumpstops but I haven't been able to confirm this myself.
"Ride height" is obvious, its how high the car is running from the track. You can still hit bodywork on the track even if this never reaches 0.0.
"Travel" shows how much suspension travel is left before you hit the bump-stops. If you make the bump-stops bigger this number goes down as the bump stop uses up some of the available travel.
"Bumpstop" is the length of the bumpstop. If you make the bumpstop bigger this number increases (duh!). Unfortunately as far as I can tell this number doesn't change as the bumpstop compresses so it's impossible to see when you have truly run out of suspension travel (i.e. when you've compressed the bumpstop and hit the hard limit of suspension travel.
Pressure and Camber vs. tyre temperature distribution
What we expect to see: As tyre pressure goes up, the middle tyre temperature should increase compared to the average of the inner and outer temperatures, and vice versa.
What actually happens: Tyre pressure has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the middle temperature.
What we expect to see: Adding more negative camber should make the inside of the tyre hotter and the outside cooler. Running at 0.0 camber should overheat the outer of the tyre considerably.
What actually happens: The difference between 0.0 camber and maximum negative camber is there but very slight (i.e. it only makes a degree or two difference). The inside of the tyre will always be hotter even if you run 0.0 camber.
I also noted another odd occurrence...normally on a clockwise circuit the amount by which the inside of the tyre is hotter than the outside is MORE on the inside wheels (right hand tyres) than on the outside wheels (left hand tyres). But that doesn't happen in Project Cars - in fact we get the opposite. This is something you will see in every other sim out there.
For example, try taking the Clio around Donington (clockwise). The right hand tyre temperatures will be even across the tyre, whereas the left hand tyre temperatures will be hotter on the inside than the outside.
In conclusion - right now you cannot use tyre temperature telemetry to tune camber.
________________________________________________
Hope that's useful. There's lots of good info in this thread. Hopefully we can find out some more if we work together.
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- 156
- United Kingdom
Good to hear they are noticing these things.
Had another crack at trying to figure out how the red indicator works on the suspension telemetry and come to the conclusion that it must be bugged or something. This is a clip from the Xbox version at Brands Hatch in a Formula C car using the standard tune:
At 2 seconds I get a couples of white boxes on the left front, but as you can see I have plenty of travel and ride height available on all four wheels. I checked every frame of the clip around all of these screenshots btw:
At 6 seconds I get a red box on the left front but again plenty of travel and RH left all around. This could possibly be indicating a grounding of the car as I drive over the apex:
At 8 seconds I do run out of both spring travel and ride height on the left front, and out of travel in the left rear, yet no indicator appears:
Another red box for seemingly no reason:
And again I run out of travel and RH yet nothing happens:
Also - the indicator only ever appeared on the left front, never on any other wheel. I thought that was just a symptom of driving left-hand drive cars but obviously that's not the cause here. I'm 100% stumped as to what that thing is supposed to be telling us.
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
I have to say I don't agree about middle tire temps and camber.Hi all, it's good to see there are other people looking to analyse the telemetry - I didn't get much interest in something similar on the official PC forum. I've done a load of research into the telemetry etc. I'll stick my findings here.
Tyre temperature vs. tyre pressure
For this testing a basically played with tyre pressure and noted how it affected the maximum temperature of the tyre once up to temperature.
Starting at the minimum pressure your tyre gets very hot. Then as you add pressure the max temperature reached slowly goes down until you get to a "critical pressure". Further increasing tyre pressure past this point causes the max temperature reached to go up again, and at a higher rate than an underinflated tyre, i.e. a small increase in pressure results in a big increase in temperature.
I'm not sure how this relates to grip, but I assume an overheated tyre produces less grip. So if you have a tyre that is overheating the first thing to try is to drop the pressure a small amount and see if it makes things worse or better.
As an aside, there seems to be a train of though that you should be trying to get your tyre temperatures equal left to right on the car. IMHO this is wrong. If you are driving around a clockwise circuit the left hand tyres are going to get worked harder, and therefore are going to get hotter, than the right hand tyres. If that doesn't happen then something is very wrong with the tune! Instead we should be aiming to get even tyre PRESSURES left to right so that the car handles the same in left hand corners as it does in right hand corners. We can't see tyre pressure in the telemetry right now though.
Suspension
The blue arrow points at a white marker - this marker moves with the suspension but I'm not sure it's useful for much. The red arrow points at a little red block that appears when your bodywork hits the road. It apparently also appears if you hit the bumpstops but I haven't been able to confirm this myself.
"Ride height" is obvious, its how high the car is running from the track. You can still hit bodywork on the track even if this never reaches 0.0.
"Travel" shows how much suspension travel is left before you hit the bump-stops. If you make the bump-stops bigger this number goes down as the bump stop uses up some of the available travel.
"Bumpstop" is the length of the bumpstop. If you make the bumpstop bigger this number increases (duh!). Unfortunately as far as I can tell this number doesn't change as the bumpstop compresses so it's impossible to see when you have truly run out of suspension travel (i.e. when you've compressed the bumpstop and hit the hard limit of suspension travel.
Pressure and Camber vs. tyre temperature distribution
What we expect to see: As tyre pressure goes up, the middle tyre temperature should increase compared to the average of the inner and outer temperatures, and vice versa.
What actually happens: Tyre pressure has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the middle temperature.
What we expect to see: Adding more negative camber should make the inside of the tyre hotter and the outside cooler. Running at 0.0 camber should overheat the outer of the tyre considerably.
What actually happens: The difference between 0.0 camber and maximum negative camber is there but very slight (i.e. it only makes a degree or two difference). The inside of the tyre will always be hotter even if you run 0.0 camber.
I also noted another odd occurrence...normally on a clockwise circuit the amount by which the inside of the tyre is hotter than the outside is MORE on the inside wheels (right hand tyres) than on the outside wheels (left hand tyres). But that doesn't happen in Project Cars - in fact we get the opposite. This is something you will see in every other sim out there.
For example, try taking the Clio around Donington (clockwise). The right hand tyre temperatures will be even across the tyre, whereas the left hand tyre temperatures will be hotter on the inside than the outside.
In conclusion - right now you cannot use tyre temperature telemetry to tune camber.
________________________________________________
Hope that's useful. There's lots of good info in this thread. Hopefully we can find out some more if we work together.
I ran very low tire pressures and the middle of the tire was lower in temperature than both the inside and outside temps.
If you go to Road America and look at your tire temps after the last corner, your rear right will always be hotter on the inside than the rear left inside. You have to remember camber is not affected by only camber. It is directly affected by body roll and roll bar settings. Also if you test this on a slow car that doesn't generate much lateral G force in corners then you won't notice the big difference in inner temps your looking for, as you described with the Clio Cup.
It also depends on the car used, the tracks and all sorts of factor. Even though the testing done by DonPost is awesome, I dont think the Tyre Temperature results should be followed for every car / track combination. For the simple reason that every tyre has a different temperature for optimal grip.
As i mentioned in my previous post, I believe that the 80-90 degrees Celsius is always 'my' target. I just open the telemetry and try to get the tires to 'Dark Green'.
- 1,680
- Chicago, USA
Great input from everyone. Does anyone know the ideal tyre temperatures for different drive trains?
Example: FWD cars will naturally heat up front tires more than rear. Is there an acceptable temperature difference from front to rear for FWD cars? (Eg. It is not possible or not ideal to get all 4 tyres to same temps.)
Same inquiry for other drive trains.
Example: FWD cars will naturally heat up front tires more than rear. Is there an acceptable temperature difference from front to rear for FWD cars? (Eg. It is not possible or not ideal to get all 4 tyres to same temps.)
Same inquiry for other drive trains.
- 451
- Rotterdam
- Capt_Quarck
Well the tyres perform best at the same temperature (between 80-100C) no matter what drivetrain, so your goal should still be the same. You can expect FWD cars to have higher front tyre temperatures because they do steering braking and acceleration. RWD don't necessarily have higher rear tyre temperatures, this depends on the setup. If you have an oversteering setup your rear tyres will heat up. If you have a understeering setup you might heat up the front more.
@donpost
Im not saying bumpstop might not be bugged, but it could also be that there are bumps and dips in the tarmac that trigger the bumpstop, that are impossible to see. I still havent got a clue how to setup the bumpstops properly though.
The 'critical' tyre pressure effect you're describing I think might be happening because when the tyre pressure gets too high, you lose grip (less contactpatch with tarmac) and you start slipping to get around the corner, thus increasing temperature.
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