The Future of A-spec points

[Jujubean]

I tried doing a search but didn't really come up with much, so I figured I would start a new thread.

It is my opinion that A-spec points, as in GT4 were really meaningless. What made me start thinking about it is that I was doing the Opel Speedster Manufacturers race in GT4, and I did the prologue to see how tuned up the competition would be. I checked a few times and they always had 379 Hp. The most I could get out of my new Speedster turbo was 340 something, so I thought it was going to be a really tough race. I got every upgrade I could get and it was still a 200 point race. For some people this might not be so scary, but I was intimidated by this. Then, I did the race, and I blew away the competition. The rest of the races in the series went much the same way. On the other hand, there have been races where I was only offered like 50 A-Spec points, and there was one rabbit that just destroyed me.

I suppose it would depend on a more homogeneous field of competition, but I would like if GT5 had a more accurate means of measuring the difficulty of a race. What do you guys think?

*EDIT*
Mods, if there is already a similar thread, feel free to lock this one. It seemed like a topic that would have come up but I couldn't find it.

 

[Seismica]

Due to the presence of online racing in GT5, there has to be some form of system like the Performance Points in prologue.

I'll hazard a guess that it would calculate the A-spec points from your car's performance in relation to the AI cars. I'm pretty sure GT4 had a system like this, it just didn't show the hidden attributes of the cars (Calculated by power and weight).

Where the problem lies in those examples you gave, a) The Opel Speedster cup is a glitched event, the AI cars are tuned far above what your car can achieve, so they give you 200 points for a fully tuned car (near enough). But the AI drives slow so it balances out. and b) Rabbits are caused by two things; 1) For some reason, the car in pole position drives faster than the rest of the field (presumably to simulate clean air, lack of traffic that often leads to the leader pulling away in real races) and 2) The fact the line-ups are so diverse. You often get slow cars and maybe one fast car in a line-up. If you took an average of their 'point scores', the point value would be quite low, but there would be one fast car in the line-up that drives way faster.

A good example is the Nurburgring 4 hour endurance on GT4 Light cars like the Elise, Speedster, NSX type R always pull away but only represent similar point values to slower cars.

There is no way to fix that, because these light, mid-engined cars are naturally faster than most cars in their class, not just because of their weight, but because of their chassis and overall setup. These cars will always be rabbits, the only solution would be too raise their 'point values' on purpose.

But, we do not know if A-spec points will make a return at all. I think the improved (i.e. Faster driving) AI will make the majority of races near impossible for full points. Plus there are two different physics settings to accomodate, Forcing people to switch to Arcade physics to do a task that is impossible on professional is a no go. If they do that, there will be a lot of protest, because they've got feedback from prologue about that already.

I'm rambling. I've been up for nearly 24 hours, I've forgotten what my point was

 

[Tired Tyres]

The problem with A-Spec points in GT4 is that they are calculated against an average of the AI cars. Since you only got A-Spec points for winning it would be more accurate to calculate the points against the strongest AI car.

 

[Famine]

Of course, with PSN Trophies now, I suspect A-Spec points won't be as pointless as they were (if included in the game at all).

 

[Seismica]

The problem with A-Spec points in GT4 is that they are calculated against an average of the AI cars. Since you only got A-Spec points for winning it would be more accurate to calculate the points against the strongest AI car.

Thats probably the biggest problem with it tbh.

 

[Skidmark]

I played GT4 to death but never really took notice of the points.

What do they contribute towards?

 

[Famine]

Nothing at all.

 

[Skidmark]

Ha ha, so they really are pointless then!?

Well if they were implemented online it might be quite cool if there was a ranking system and you could rank up etc..

I think grid had something similar. I always thought it helped a bit, it a rookie was driving like a fool I you could excuse them. If a Pro was you could shout at them!

 

[NoQuarter]

Due to the presence of online racing in GT5, there has to be some form of system like the Performance Points in prologue. [/snip]

Completely agree...

Once GT5 is released and online, it's going to be a cluster function with the racing. There will be everything from hard core sim racers, to dedicated mid packers who just want to race clean and improve (such as yours truly), to the fanboy nawz idiots who just want to treat the race venues as a way to act like, well, fanboy nawz idiots.

A "point system" based on a drivers performance would be a good way to weed out the chaff, and allow drivers the opportunity to race against those of equal mindsets and ability, with improvement in performance - which could be a combination of track/race times as well as marks for and against clean/dirty driving - and a way to avoid an open competition where it's a slam fest.

It is my understanding, for example, that iRacing has a "Safety Rating" system in place, so that new drivers have to earn their way up the various ladders to be able to race at the higher echelons. This would be a good implementation of the A Spec point system, as long it it accounts for bad driving issues as well as good performance issues for each driver.

 

[Lizard]

if A-spec points were so pointless why did people make guides on how to get the most out of each race? You have to be pretty board to do something like that.

 

[Balocco]

Of course, with PSN Trophies now, I suspect A-Spec points won't be as pointless as they were (if included in the game at all).

If trophies were the only thing they'd got you, they'd still be just as pointless.

 

[Seismica]

If trophies were the only thing they'd got you, they'd still be just as pointless.

Not really. The points were there in GT4 for those who wanted the extra challenge, and also the bragging rights. Trophies give the bragging rights, the races give the challenge. They may be worthless to some people, I agree on that. But they do have a point, and its no different to countless other games which have trophies/achievements for say, completing the game, or individual levels, on the harder difficulties. Thats all A-spec points ever were, an indication of the race difficulty (In general, it was quite accurate too).

Are you implying that cars should be the prize for achieving certain A-spec point milestones? (i.e. 10k, 25k, 50k etc.)

 

[Balocco]

Not really. The points were there in GT4 for those who wanted the extra challenge, and also the bragging rights. Trophies give the bragging rights, the races give the challenge. They may be worthless to some people, I agree on that. But they do have a point, and its no different to countless other games which have trophies/achievements for say, completing the game, or individual levels, on the harder difficulties. Thats all A-spec points ever were, an indication of the race difficulty (In general, it was quite accurate too).

Are you implying that cars should be the prize for achieving certain A-spec point milestones? (i.e. 10k, 25k, 50k etc.)

There should be tangible in-game rewards for them for the people, and there are a lot of us, who don't give a crap about trophies or bragging rights. They could be used in a similar way to how Forza uses the money you make to level up your driver, where each level gives you new benefits, ranging from cars to discounts to, well, anything. As long as it's something.

 

[analog]

Completely agree...

Once GT5 is released and online, it's going to be a cluster function with the racing. There will be everything from hard core sim racers, to dedicated mid packers who just want to race clean and improve (such as yours truly), to the fanboy nawz idiots who just want to treat the race venues as a way to act like, well, fanboy nawz idiots.

A "point system" based on a drivers performance would be a good way to weed out the chaff, and allow drivers the opportunity to race against those of equal mindsets and ability, with improvement in performance - which could be a combination of track/race times as well as marks for and against clean/dirty driving - and a way to avoid an open competition where it's a slam fest.

It is my understanding, for example, that iRacing has a "Safety Rating" system in place, so that new drivers have to earn their way up the various ladders to be able to race at the higher echelons. This would be a good implementation of the A Spec point system, as long it it accounts for bad driving issues as well as good performance issues for each driver.

Although licence requirements could offer a similar role they could also be integrated into the points/trophies system whereby experience ( time actually played, etc. ) achievements ( races won, etc. ) and abilty ( licence tests, missions ) could all add to a ranking system somewhat similar to, for instance, a FPS like Battlefield.
If it is to be like Battlefield ( or any other similar system ) you can also lose points if you misbehaved/cheated ( or in BF shot your own crew ) in a race as a penalty system.
A sort of reward/penalty ranking/rating ladder would be very welcome in my opinion, not just as status symbol but also as a useful way to reward those who drive fairly and punish those who don't.

 

[greenlightning]

"A"-spec performance points was used mainly to simulate or give the user a method of creating more difficult races then they would normally encounter. I think on average this worked out okay. However certainly there are some races or some cars that received or performed better against the other 6 cars when entering 100+ point races.

I would expect that performance points is a better method then just having say horsepower limits like GT2. With performance points in theory a 300 hp light weight car could run close competition with a 500 plus heavy weight car. Since GT5 Prologue use performance points as one of the key components it is save to say that it will also be used in GT5. They could perhaps use some sort of multiplier system for prize level dealt out. Meaning if you take a top 4 spot and have 200 performance points, that maybe the cash prize is multiplied by 4.

I enjoyed running 50 plus point races in Arcade mode with forced pit or forced pennatly on. It is fairly difficult to race 5 laps and win. With 16 cars on the track would be extremely difficult to do if starting at the back of the pack.

For online, I would hope that they introduce some sort of experience points system. This would be based on a variety of factors such as number of wins, average performance point variance from the rest of the field etc. With the ideal that those with the similar experience points would be more suitable to race against each other.

I still believe that will the field of cars going from 6 to 16 which is almost 3 times as many. That they need to take a very hard look and spend lost of time planning on how the GT World mode race events will be structured. With say 5 and maybe even 10 lap races starting from the back and working your way to the front should be a challenge. That is unless the A.I. remains unchanged. I see the need for qualifying on most events or especially events with 12 to 16 cars on the track.

GT World Mode is one area where I believe that much improvement should be made. Improvements that would give a much better GT experience and perhaps much more in depth, but at the same time easier to navigate. With so many cars I want country or manufacture restrictions used sparingly. I want the races restrictions done in such a fashion that one can take an average car that has the capabilities to be tuned into a high performance race car. That this car can be used and enter multiple events without running into country or single make restrictions. The only place I want to see country or single make restrictions is in the dealership events. However regardless of how GT World mode is constructed, online should offer endless amounts of competition in just about any race format that one desires.

I have high hopes for Online Mode and strong desires for a great GT World Mode.

 

[CarBastard]

A-Spec points were really, really odd.

As you said, a race fo 200 A-Spec points was a piece of cake sometimes, and sometimes a 50 A-Spec points race had one single magic-rocketship that slaughtered you. That's one of my biggest criticisms with GT's AI, it's either too easy or too inhumanly hard. I really hope they get this fixed, and that A-Spec points could have a use (For Example: Some legendary cars having an A-Spec points requirement to buy).

 

[Seismica]

GT World Mode is one area where I believe that much improvement should be made. Improvements that would give a much better GT experience and perhaps much more in depth, but at the same time easier to navigate. With so many cars I want country or manufacture restrictions used sparingly. I want the races restrictions done in such a fashion that one can take an average car that has the capabilities to be tuned into a high performance race car. That this car can be used and enter multiple events without running into country or single make restrictions. The only place I want to see country or single make restrictions is in the dealership events. However regardless of how GT World mode is constructed, online should offer endless amounts of competition in just about any race format that one desires.

I have high hopes for Online Mode and strong desires for a great GT World Mode.

I disagree with that part. If anything, the GT mode should be more varied and there should be more levels of event for you to compete in, which restrict entry to certain classes of car. GT4 suffered because there were entire classes of cars that were completely useless, either too quick or too slow for AI events at the same sort of level. As someone has said before, it is because PD went to all the trouble of modelling cars, like GT1 class racers (BMW Mclaren F1, CLK GTR, Corvette C5R, Viper GTS-R etc.), low end touring cars (BMW 320i, Mazda 6 touring car etc.) and also high end sports cars (Cadillac Cien, VW W12, Saleen S7) and then proceeded to not create a race series/event they could compete in, because they would be either too fast or too slow for your AI competitors.

GT mode should not be overlooked due to the presence of online. I really hope PD have put a lot of effort into the offline aswell as the online.

One thought that does cross my mind is that the AI has clearly been improved since the days of GT4, they no longer drive at a very slow pace, they can give skilled drivers a run for their money under the right circumstances. It makes me wonder if A-spec points will have a place, because racing the AI with an equal car should be challenging enough for most people.

 

[Balocco]

One thought that does cross my mind is that the AI has clearly been improved since the days of GT4, they no longer drive at a very slow pace, they can give skilled drivers a run for their money under the right circumstances.

The best thing the new AI does, as I've seen happen quite a bit in Prologue, is make mistakes.

 

[premhz]

Thats probably the biggest problem with it tbh.

I was never a fan of the A Spec point`s either,it`s generally pointless in having them in the game. The Horsepower limit for races but also adjustable boost from GT1or 2(not sure which one) is much better at creating a level playing field i feel.

 

[Moloch_horridus]

A-Spec points were really, really odd.
snip

Not once you understood how they were being calculated - it was pretty straight forward really. Try getting 100,000 of them - that is not too hard, it is the last 13,000-odd that are a bit tricky.

I didn't like the system and it spoiled the fun of the game to a large extent - I hope the race difficulty measuring system is seriously redesigned.

 

[TokyoDrift]

if A-spec points were so pointless why did people make guides on how to get the most out of each race? You have to be pretty board to do something like that.

Just the same way people go chasing trophies - for bragging rights. In that respect, trophies are just as pointless as A-Spec points. If people need trophies to force them to play games a certain way and extend the lifespan of the game for them, that's too bad...

 

[Griffith500]

I was never a fan of the A Spec point`s either,it`s generally pointless in having them in the game. The Horsepower limit for races but also adjustable boost from GT1or 2(not sure which one) is much better at creating a level playing field i feel.

I liked it as a rough gauge to how hard I was pushing myself, but the inconsistency of actual difficulty versus point-value was a pain in the proverbial...

GT1's boost control is sorely missed by me, and horsepower / weight limits (Performance Points?) would really make you work for your money 👍

Just the same way people go chasing trophies - for bragging rights. In that respect, trophies are just as pointless as A-Spec points. If people need trophies to force them to play games a certain way and extend the lifespan of the game for them, that's too bad...

Well at least it means they do play it differently. What gets me is these people who play games just to "beat" them (woo, well done! You "beat" an in animate object...).

Games aren't for beating, they're for enjoying! I suppose if beating games is your thing, then that counts as enjoyment...

 

[TokyoDrift]

Well at least it means they do play it differently. What gets me is these people who play games just to "beat" them (woo, well done! You "beat" an in animate object...).

Games aren't for beating, they're for enjoying! I suppose if beating games is your thing, then that counts as enjoyment...

That's the thing - they just get games to complete them, just to get the points/trophies, to stake a claim-to-fame. I can remember when the early games on Xbox were terrible for points distribution - basically complete a season of football and you get 1000 points! They have no interest in the game, nor do they get enjoyment from it because all they are bothered about is the reward...pathetic really.

 

[analog]

Well at least it means they do play it differently. What gets me is these people who play games just to "beat" them (woo, well done! You "beat" an in animate object...).

Games aren't for beating, they're for enjoying! I suppose if beating games is your thing, then that counts as enjoyment...

That's the thing - they just get games to complete them, just to get the points/trophies, to stake a claim-to-fame. I can remember when the early games on Xbox were terrible for points distribution - basically complete a season of football and you get 1000 points! They have no interest in the game, nor do they get enjoyment from it because all they are bothered about is the reward...pathetic really.

You're both absolutely spot on in my opinion, games are purely for enjoyment and not for worrying about statistics or scoring points/trophies.
Most games i have and still play aren't even completed yet and my trophy list is laughable when comparing it to other players online.
Having said all this i have to admit i did completely finish every GT game until now and always have to have all gold driving licences no matter how long it takes or how frustrated i become in the process of obtaining them .

 

[Kryz11]

In GT4, what was the point of A spec points? I never pay attention to them, so PD needs to implement it into whole new level.

 

[Seismica]

I think i've already said this, not sure... But there is no need for A-spec points at all if the AI is challenging, because winning the race on professional physics is difficult enough (Similar to how S10 in GT5P is difficult).

I have to admit, I didn't care about A-spec points the first time I played GT4. Its only recently that i've bothered with them (Simply because I've gotten bored of waiting for the sequel).

I'm sure GT5 will have PSN trophies for golding the licenses, and completing the various championships, so A-spec points may not have a place in the game. If they are, they should be linked in some way to which physics type you selected to run the race (i.e. you get more for racing in professional physics).

But to be honest, i'm not that bothered. Most of the guys who aimed to max out the A-spec points in GT4 will probably be just as content racing online against tough opponents.

 

[Northstar]

I think they should be used as sort of a level system for unlocking cars. For instance have tier 1 cars unlocked at the start(as well as a few from all other tiers so you wouldn't be stuck). From there as you get more A-Spec points you unlock higher tiers.

Here is an example where 2000 would be the max points for the whole game.
Tier 1(low powered street cars)-Unlocked from start
Tier 2(Mid performance street cars)-100 Points
Tier 3(Sports Cars)-300 Points
Tier 4(Super Cars)-600 Points
Tier 5(Low Spec Race Cars)-1000 Points
Tier 6(High Spec Race Cars)-1500 Points
Tier 7(LE Race Cars(i.e. Black cars in GT4))-2000 Points

I feel this would discourage buying a supercar and using that from the start since it would take longer to progress to the top tier.

 

[Moloch_horridus]

Whatever system they have developed I hope that maximum points can be obtained without ever having to exit and reenter a race for new opponents - this was the most tedious aspect of a-spec point collecting. The difficulty should be adjustable either before or after entering (opponent selection, performance adjustment, etc.). And no glitches (e.g. Dodge RAM).

At those who say what is/was the point of a-spec points: what is the point in climbing a mountain, what is the point in collecting teaspoons, what is the point of nose piercings?? Some people enjoy it, some people don't, end of story.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

The A-spec point system in GT4 was about one thing, and one thing only:

"The Challenge"

You didn't get a special trophy or car or additional content of any kind
and I'm glad Kaz chose not to make that part of it.
I think it would have only taken away from the experience.
Just the satisfaction of running the gauntlet and coming out with the maximum points was enough.
One other benefit you recieved in the process. It would hone your skills to the max.

The A-spec points system added another complete and unique dimension to GT4.
I surely hope GT5 will have a similar system.

As of late there's some indication it does.

 

[Jujubean]

Yeah, but it was so inconsistent, and in order to get max points you had to try over and over again, slightly tweaking your setup, or trying for different lineups. Lots of them aren't even that hard if you have the right car, right setup, and right lineup. Those things have very little to do with driving skill (I consider driving skill and setup/tuning skill two different things). I would still like a CHALLENGING system, where the CHALLENGE is more about skill than harvesting that perfect lineup and looking on GTP to see what cars and setups work best.