The good and bad about public reviews?

[LogiForce]

Since another thread got raided. I thought I'd start this thread.
Please discuss why you guys think public reviews are good or bad. Think not only about the psychological implications for the honesty of the review, but also about the influence to the community and the atmosphere among its members.

Just remember that every early review is biased in some way. Either because of a free or discounted product, or the exclusivity of being allowed to review the product alone might be enough. There are hundreds of reasons to think about that would make an early review biased. However what will make an early review unbiased? Removing any benefits alone isn't enough, as you still have the exclusivity as incentive as a reason to be biased.

Also like Caz mentioned in another thread, public reviews might harm the community more then anything else. Think about things like jealousy or something like distrust in another their ability to provide a good review. This in the end will cause breach in between people (or maybe rip them further open) and maybe destroys the joyful atmosphere there was.


Anyhow... discuss or nag... whatever

 

[Caz]

I was thinking of starting this exact thread after reading your comment in the " truth" thread. You and your computer are way faster than me and my crap phone

Ill quote myself from the other thread here to get the ball rolling.

I'm starting to think this whole community test thing is bad for the community. During the csr:e pollingeveryone was sweet as can be. Once that poll was closed all hell broke loose for a little while. Its been pretty calm in here, until the new fanatec community tester program was announced.
I know I have been fairly quite around here since that wheels release, but most of the fanatec question's since then have been on that which I have no first hand knowledge of.
.

Edit : I guess this post falls under your " whatever" option

 

[Raitziger]

I think that there should not be any compensation for the reviews from the company whose product is tested. It would very controversial if magazine does a review on a product and reviewer gets discount on that product later.

 

[amf7]

I am pretty sure that's how it works in the real review world anyway.... Or the reviewers get to keep it free anyway!

Personally I believe most reviews will be unbiased as people have pride and like to have credibility!

Like I said before.... If you know the rewards before the review... You can write what you wish as you know Nothing will be taken away!

If that makes sense

 

[Spike125]

Great idea with the thread.
Actually this is what was crossing my mind, the whole time, when I tried to take a decision, if I would buy a CSR-Elite or not.
IMO community tests will always be biased, no matter what you do.
The tester will be an enthusiast like all of us, and of course be excited about the new product and the chance to test it.
The only question is, to which extend.
This is up to us to decide, by whom we pick for the review.
For example the review by Sonac was for sure somewhat biased, but still I think it was well thought out and objective enough for me to take a decision.
Anyhow, most people don't take an decision solely by reading a review, but more by waiting the community to respond and that again is up to all of us.

Concluding I would say for myself, community tests Yes.

Btw a poll would be nice

Edit: One thing I want to mention about the reward. I think it would be nice to know from the reviewer, if he will keep his testing model, for what reason and if he would have bought it full price.
But for me, I think it's ok if they can keep it discounted, because it's anyways still a beta model in most of the cases.

 

[Fanatec...]

Your post implies that the reviewer is biased because he has some priviledges. But these priviledges are given to him by the community as the tester is selected by a poll and not by the company.
So if an user indicates in advance that he will likely write a biased review then I don't think that this will increase his chances to be appointed by the community.

So basically this only happens if a tester is appointed by the company (like fanatec) but we only appoint community test managers and they have no obligation to write a review.

So when a CTM or beta tester stays quiet and does not tell the rest of the community again and again that he will get an advantage then there will be little reason for the community to react in a negative way or be offended or jealous. Of course it is not easy to hide your feelings when you are excited.
I think it is the same as driving a Ferrari in real life. You will enjoy it for yourself but probably a lot of people around you will be jealous because they want it but cannot have it. If the Ferrari driver tells these poor guys how fantastic it is and how much they are missing it makes things worse.
But would I question the existance of expesnive sport cars because of that?

 

[Raitziger]

I am pretty sure that's how it works in the real review world anyway.... Or the reviewers get to keep it free anyway!

Personally I believe most reviews will be unbiased as people have pride and like to have credibility!

Yes, but It is different if you do this as work. They send so much stuff that you won't even care at some point.

Now when some "random" dudes get 50% of from high end wheel, they feel like they have won in lottery. And that is the difference.

 

[amf7]

For me the I forgot to mention my actual opinions...

That is the more reviews the better! I read countless reviews before buying any product. For example my phone I read/watched every video review or demo I could find. The same for my iPad so keep doing things like this so people have many reviews to see.

And to clarify I too would love to test this wheel etc but it would be the same with any new wheel or game!

Your post implies that the reviewer is biased because he has some priviledges. But these priviledges are given to him by the community as the tester is selected by a poll and not by the company.


So when a CTM or beta tester stays quiet and does not tell the rest of the community again and again that he will get an advantage then there will be little reason for the community to react in a negative way or be offended or jealous. Of course it is not easy to hide your feelings when you are excited.

Sums it up

 

[LogiForce]

Your post implies that the reviewer is biased because he has some priviledges. But these priviledges are given to him by the community as the tester is selected by a poll and not by the company.
So if an user indicates in advance that he will likely write a biased review then I don't think that this will increase his chances to be appointed by the community.

So basically this only happens if a tester is appointed by the company (like fanatec) but we only appoint community test managers and they have no obligation to write a review.

So when a CTM or beta tester stays quiet and does not tell the rest of the community again and again that he will get an advantage then there will be little reason for the community to react in a negative way or be offended or jealous. Of course it is not easy to hide your feelings when you are excited.
I think it is the same as driving a Ferrari in real life. You will enjoy it for yourself but probably a lot of people around you will be jealous because they want it but cannot have it. If the Ferrari driver tells these poor guys how fantastic it is and how much they are missing it makes things worse.
But would I question the existance of expesnive sport cars because of that?

Well, I tried to make the OP with the general feelings of the community here in mind. Also I find it more then reasonable for a community to discuss this if in the end it's a community's decision to vote for a tester, or to participate at all.

Yes, you are right. I am way too excited to drive that Ferrari which makes me want to rant about it. It's like going to Modena because Enzo Ferrari envited you personally for a test drive in the F40, or these days the 458 Italia. I think everyone would forget the world around him a bit. So maybe it's my bad in the end to make the people around me jealous indeed. I just hope they will think about it in the end and think about how they would feel in the same position. However everyone reacts differently of course.
But yeah... why deny the existence indeed.

 

[sandboxgod]

Won the 'lottery'? I am sorry if saving $250 off a wheel sounds like a ton of money too you but many of us chunk more than that to iRacing alone easily. My setup w/o the CSR-E costs wayyyyy over that if one considers my PC (bout 2k when I purchased it) + consoles (PS3 + xbox) + T500rs + CSP + wheelstand. Add in iRacing which is not cheap if you own most of the Road courses like myself and that's a lot of money to maintain a hobby...

 

[paskowitz]

Why its good. People online are usually more knowledgeable than the average Joe.

Bad. When someone says something bad on the internet, it is like the whole world said it.

 

[Spagetti69]

But these priviledges are given to him by the community as the tester is selected by a poll and not by the company.

Clever play on words there Mr T.

Not all reviewers are biased, many give good insightful thoughts and comments. Most actually.

Due to the fact I will not reveal(back up my statement) I have removed this paragraph.

I have read testers reviews who previously were on the Thrustmaster side of the street and would never touch a Fanatec again.
Sniff of a chance of a wheel and they then call other people's credibility into account if they complain about Fanatec.

 

[novadave]

Your post implies that the reviewer is biased because he has some priviledges. But these priviledges are given to him by the community as the tester is selected by a poll and not by the company.
So if an user indicates in advance that he will likely write a biased review then I don't think that this will increase his chances to be appointed by the community.

So basically this only happens if a tester is appointed by the company (like fanatec) but we only appoint community test managers and they have no obligation to write a review.

So when a CTM or beta tester stays quiet and does not tell the rest of the community again and again that he will get an advantage then there will be little reason for the community to react in a negative way or be offended or jealous. Of course it is not easy to hide your feelings when you are excited.
I think it is the same as driving a Ferrari in real life. You will enjoy it for yourself but probably a lot of people around you will be jealous because they want it but cannot have it. If the Ferrari driver tells these poor guys how fantastic it is and how much they are missing it makes things worse.
But would I question the existance of expesnive sport cars because of that?

how on earth did this thread come to comparing apples to oranges.
Fanatec to Ferrari ??
or while we are there how about
DFGT to DUCATI GT.
ahh the power of persuasion

 

[Fanatec...]

You are right. Porsche would have been the better match.

 

[Spike125]

Ooh, nice comeback ^^

But I think we should stay on the topic of community tests.
The bashing is done already in to many threads.

I still think it's a good idea, and also a nice oppertunity for a community.

 

[amf7]

As in German engineering?

There is a slight difference endor ag's slogan is brain factory.. I guess that means innovation... Porsche dosen't innovate much!

---

Like I said would people rather there wasn't any reviews? With this method we all get to choose who does the gtp review!

 

[ilonioum]

Clever play on words there Mr T.

Not all reviewers are biased, many give good insightful thoughts and comments. Most actually.

We have had people create accounts to vote for themselves in polls, that should be enough to show there motives.

I have read testers reviews who previously were on the Thrustmaster side of the street and would never touch a Fanatec again.
Sniff of a chance of a wheel and they then call other people's credibility into account if they complain about Fanatec.

It is obvious that everybody wants the wheel, especially those that were planning to buy the wheel anyway and here they have a chance to get the wheel at better terms and share their experience with the rest of the sim-racers.

Someone has to do a review before it becomes available to public, therefore Fanatec is investing in both marketing and making the wheel more transparent to consumer before they buy it. Actually I have not seen any other company working so close with the community while making new product and supporting it.

Finally there is no perfect product, especially those that are built on an entirely new platform, but working closely together with us, sim-racers they are fixing the flaws and try to make it more attractive for us, in the end its us who is going to use it, so be grateful for the opportunity and grab the chance while you can.

I had Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec wheels, all have nice wheels but Fanatec makes me more involved in the making of wheel that I will be using

 

[Spike125]

A community review could also easily destroy a companys rep.
Imagine only, the FFB would not have been improved in FM4 (which was partly also Forza) with the first FW update ...
Even the reviewer wouldn't have been completely convinced and at least in the FM4 community the rep would have been at least reduced.
But Fanatec stayed transparent and improved the product.
What I want to say, is that companys take a risk if they let independent reviewer post in the community.

 

[Spagetti69]

It is obvious that everybody wants the wheel, especially those that were planning to buy the wheel anyway and here they have a chance to get the wheel at better terms and share their experience with the rest of the sim-racers.

Someone has to do a review before it becomes available to public, therefore Fanatec is investing in both marketing and making the wheel more transparent to consumer before they buy it. Actually I have not seen any other company working so close with the community while making new product and supporting it.

I agree. Fanatec have targeted the consumer directly, good advertisement. Many company's would want to lay out an advertising campaign direct to there customers.

As for support hmm. I'm not up to date with the latest firmware. Did fanatec drop support for GT2 and previous with the ACL update?

 

[oqvist]

There is no such thing as a unbiased review particularly not with force feedback wheels. You can argue ffb is a gimmick and in a real race car you don´t get all that info through the wheel and be right.

So if the reviewer get a 50 % off for the work being done or not doesn´t matter. I suspect a lot would be very happy to just be able to test before they buy.
It´s like with audio you have to listen for yourself to really know if it´s for you. But I certainly find community reviews useful. The best and most informative wheel reviews is from the community after all.

 

[Simracer92]

Nice thread!
I think when you get the wheel in front of you.. yes, first you are extremely excited and impressed. That is something absolute normal I think because you are one of a small group of lucky guys who were voted by the community. That means the community trust you that you are able to write a decent review. But after intensive testing I think you can be objective and I also believe that you can be able to go into pros/cons and comparison to previous wheels which you maybe owned etc.
When you really dont like the product you can write a critical review. But before doing this I would consider to write Thomas all your critical points and let him and his company the chance to make the product better. In my opinion reviews are more helpful when you wait some time and not going public with the review just after the embargo ends. I would wait a few weeks/months to let Fanatec develop better Firmware/drivers or whatever (depending on which feedback the community tester give back to Thomas). That is the main task of a beta tester - not to write a review just in time with the embargo end but more the communication with the company to tell them every little critical point you have and with this feedback the product will be better and better with the time.

And the 50 % discount you will also get when you write a really critical review even after every critical point is solved and you are still not satisfied with the wheel so if you write positive or negative - result is both 50 % discount. Fanatec doesnt expect a positive review to give you the discount..

 

[boshuter]

Personally, I don't put much credence in the reviews that are using a company supplied product, whether the reviewer gets compensation or not. I've been involved in the computer hardware scene for years and most companies will send hand picked parts to reviewers. A lot of sites/magazines that do reviews realize this and the legit ones will either point out that the review was done by a company supplied part, or purchase the part retail to eliminate any "handpicked" samples.

The best "reviews" will be after the product is released and users start posting their experiences with it.

 

[fatkrakr]

The community reviews are fine for some basic info on the wheels, but to get unbiased reviews youll have to wait for the folks who actually ordered and paid full price for there wheels. Its like the elite reviews everyone talked up how great they feel in ffb, but only one reviewer mentioned the flimsey wheel. It wasnt untill people who ordered and recieved there wheels started complaining did the reviewers mention this. Among other issues never brought up by reviewers. Ill give it to Thomas though this is marketing genius. Hes getting a but load of free advetising. While also skirting the rules of advertising on some sites. Thomas has got people lining up to advertise his products. Pure genius.

 

[ilonioum]

Personally, I don't put much credence in the reviews that are using a company supplied product, whether the reviewer gets compensation or not. I've been involved in the computer hardware scene for years and most companies will send hand picked parts to reviewers. A lot of sites/magazines that do reviews realize this and the legit ones will either point out that the review was done by a company supplied part, or purchase the part retail to eliminate any "handpicked" samples.

The best "reviews" will be after the product is released and users start posting their experiences with it.

Did you ever think where these users that will start posting their experience with it get their initial information about the wheel before they buy it? Maybe from these community reviews that are done buy the community chosen reviewers?

In the end most of the reviewers here have reviewed multiple wheels and if they were not honest from the beginning they would have lost their credibility by now, which is not the case, so the "unbiased" thing does still work.

 

[AGP5000]

Did you ever think where these users that will start posting their experience with it get their initial information about the wheel before they buy it? Maybe from these community reviews that are done buy the community chosen reviewers?

In the end most of the reviewers here have reviewed multiple wheels and if they were not honest from the beginning they would have lost their credibility by now, which is not the case, so the "unbiased" thing does still work.

+1. I actually as of late acquired an ECCI 6000gts from the iRacing forums for a literal steal($495 + S&H with 13" Momo Rim!). As well as a G27 for $150. My goal is, if selected of course, to base results from GT2, G27 & ECCI vs. the CSW. Also, I can take my real life experience, and table that as well. I would try and in a sense "benchkmark" them.

As I have stated before, the whole goal of sim racing is to emulate the real thing. Since I do race, I feel that entity needs to be addressed and compared to. This will hopefully bring another element to the table so to say.

Also, I should have kept my mouth shut in the other thread. Best thing to do is ignore, and I opened my mouth lol to say ignore. Jeez.........

 

[sandboxgod]

The community reviews are fine for some basic info on the wheels, but to get unbiased reviews youll have to wait for the folks who actually ordered and paid full price for there wheels. Its like the elite reviews everyone talked up how great they feel in ffb, but only one reviewer mentioned the flimsey wheel. It wasnt untill people who ordered and recieved there wheels started complaining did the reviewers mention this. Among other issues never brought up by reviewers. Ill give it to Thomas though this is marketing genius. Hes getting a but load of free advetising. While also skirting the rules of advertising on some sites. Thomas has got people lining up to advertise his products. Pure genius.

You didn't read all the reviews then. That guy from iRacing also complained bout the rim and probably some others

 

[fatkrakr]

No I probably havent read all the reviews, alot of them though. Didnt belong to iracing at the time.

 

[sandboxgod]

I'm trying to pull up the iracing review at the moment but ya he basically scorched the wheel rim. I don't recall him using the words 'flex' like Troy did but he basically said the entire wheel rim was no good in his book.

It's a public link; Thomas linked to it in his blog

Link: http://www.mainperformancepc.com/Articles.asp?ID=250

The wheel rim feels cheap. The rubberized grip gives it a powdery feel, and feels un-natural. The back side of the wheel also has the rubberized grip/casing, mated up with the metal base, gives it an afterthought feeling. Button placement on the wheel is very wrong, and not easily within a thumbs reach of the wheel’s holding rim, with exception to the "B" button on the 4-way directional keypad on the right hand side. The rest of the buttons require you to un-grip the wheel, and find them. This makes using the buttons while racing for in-car adjustments, Teamspeak/Ventrilo key-ups, etc very un-nerving and difficult.

I'll grant you no one I know of made a vid about the rim flexing, etc like Troy did.

* Still to this day I love this wheel rim but I would still like to have a generic formula rim

 

[tribolik]

One problem that never got talked about in any review was the CRElite shaft movement and it seems to be a problem for those that pay full price... wich kind of explains the beta tester theory is not good IMO.
But something that cannot be covered by the official reviews is that it seems, from all the user reviews I have read, buying a Fanatec product is like playing the lottery...

 

[Hwangm]

One problem that never got talked about in any review was the CRElite shaft movement and it seems to be a problem for those that pay full price... wich kind of explains the beta tester theory is not good IMO.
But something that cannot be covered by the official reviews is that it seems, from all the user reviews I have read, buying a Fanatec product is like playing the lottery...

no not lottery, more like buying a very expensive egg , you never know if it's rotten or not until you cracked it open