The Great Camber Experiment: Stage 1 "High Speed Ring" (closed/finished/ended)

[DolHaus]

Round 2 is open and you are free to begin testing when ever you please 👍

Round 1 will remain open indefinitely, if anyone should want to add to the data then they are still very welcome

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...tage-2-silverstone-under-construction.322160/

 

[demonchilde]

I am posting this here, as the other post (stage 2) was just put up, and I didn't want something off topic to be the first post in it.
But anyway, . . .
Just curious, and I am being serious, has anyone written a well written email to the actual game technical employees? They have a place where you can ask about technical issues with the game via email, and I know this isn't what they MEAN by that, but maybe a vague question worded just right might get some kind of responce.
I don't know, maybe saying "hey, now I am trying to tune a car and the spot called 'Camber' doesn't seem to change anything, is my game broken? or what am I doing wrong? What is it supposed to be doing because I think my game might need to be fixed?"
I dunno, something like that maybe?
Is this a good idea?
has anyone tried something like this from this angle?

Edit:
Just so this is known. As far as what side of the argument/discussion I am on, I believe it does work, not as much as it should, but it does. And adding .1 to 1.5 in the right situation can and does improve your turning 'smoothness' or 'ability'.Not that this has anything to do with anything, just taking my stand. The small amount that I was unsure, the wonderful testers in this thread confirmed for me. So thank you all for that.

 

[DolHaus]

I am posting this here, as the other post (stage 2) was just put up, and I didn't want something off topic to be the first post in it.
But anyway, . . .
Just curious, and I am being serious, has anyone written a well written email to the actual game technical employees? They have a place where you can ask about technical issues with the game via email, and I know this isn't what they MEAN by that, but maybe a vague question worded just right might get some kind of responce.
I don't know, maybe saying "hey, now I am trying to tune a car and the spot called 'Camber' doesn't seem to change anything, is my game broken? or what am I doing wrong? What is it supposed to be doing because I think my game might need to be fixed?"
I dunno, something like that maybe?
Is this a good idea?
has anyone tried something like this from this angle?

Feel free to try but I doubt you'll get a useful answer, even if they accept that there is an issue they won't publicly admit to it

(Sales 101 - Unless legally obliged to, never admit fault to the customer)

 

[F1Racer68]

@demonchilde I am of the exact same opinion regarding camber as you are. My most recent test confirmed that for me. The 1.0 to 1.5 range seems to be "the sweet spot". Once you get beyond that it seems that the gains in some types of corners are offset by losses in other types of corners.

Having said that, some tracks such as Tsukuba, that have more tight, slow to medium speed corners may benefit from higher camber levels.

 

[DolHaus]

I had a thought earlier while inputting the data:

What if adding camber is speeding up the transfer of weight onto the tyre at the expense of peak lateral grip? When you turn into the corner you get a more immediate response (tyre loads faster) at the expense of total grip (reduced ability to sustain high load).

I will need to view a few peoples data and make note of where the peak load was encountered and the severity of the spike. If this theory proved true then I would expect to see the peaks happening earlier in the corner with a more dramatic spike.

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus iirc when I was looking at my graphs in Motec max load was hit very early in the turn. But with my comp down still (waiting on a new power adaptor to arrive) I can't confirm nor can I send you any of my files right now. I do remember finding it odd that max load was well before the apex of the turn.

 

[DolHaus]

If the theory does show some merit then I would be inclined to believe that camber was working backwards, instead of adding negative camber the physics engine is interpreting the adjustment as adding positive camber perhaps

 

[F1Racer68]

If the theory does show some merit then I would be inclined to believe that camber was working backwards, instead of adding negative camber the physics engine is interpreting the adjustment as adding positive camber perhaps

This thought has been brought up very early in the GT6 days already. I believed it prior to the 1.09 update, but not anymore.

One thing I am wondering is if people are taking into account the new physics model? I get the feeling that many are comparing to how camber worked in GT5 and are expecting to use the same or similar numbers in GT6. That would be a mistake right off the bat since GT6 now includes tire sidewall flex, which GT5 never had.

Camber is supposed to work in the game the same as it does in real life, I don't dispute that and am not arguing that. This does not mean however that the numbers used will work the same. My findings and personal impressions are that when comparing to GT5, I am using numbers that are roughly half of what I used in GT5.

For example, in GT5 my basic starting point was always around 2.4 front and 2.0 rear. I find I am now ending up somewhere around 1.2 front and 0.8 rear for most cars (give or take a few decimals).

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, as I found early on that the same was true for spring rates. I found out very quickly that GT6 used different spring rates from what I would have used on the same car in GT5. My cars in GT6 felt better on "softer" spring settings, meaning lower numbers than what I had in GT5.

I think the first thing everyone needs to do is essentially forget about GT5 and look at this as a completely different game. I wouldn't expect a setup from GTR2 to feel exactly the same on the same car in Project Cars, so why should we expect it when moving from GT5 to GT6? One of the main pieces of promotional material from PD about GT6 was the "All new physics model".

I am not claiming to be right, and I am not claiming that anything is proven. More data and more testing will confirm or refute any and all theories. I am only stating that based on my personal findings ( as posted yesterday) and very subjective "feel" of the cars, I am starting to believe that camber does work as it should. I think what we are now dealing with is more an issue of expectations and preconceptions.

Purely one man's opinion......

 

[DolHaus]

This thought has been brought up very early in the GT6 days already. I believed it prior to the 1.09 update, but not anymore.

One thing I am wondering is if people are taking into account the new physics model? I get the feeling that many are comparing to how camber worked in GT5 and are expecting to use the same or similar numbers in GT6. That would be a mistake right off the bat since GT6 now includes tire sidewall flex, which GT5 never had.

Camber is supposed to work in the game the same as it does in real life, I don't dispute that and am not arguing that. This does not mean however that the numbers used will work the same. My findings and personal impressions are that when comparing to GT5, I am using numbers that are roughly half of what I used in GT5.

For example, in GT5 my basic starting point was always around 2.4 front and 2.0 rear. I find I am now ending up somewhere around 1.2 front and 0.8 rear for most cars (give or take a few decimals).

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, as I found early on that the same was true for spring rates. I found out very quickly that GT6 used different spring rates from what I would have used on the same car in GT5. My cars in GT6 felt better on "softer" spring settings, meaning lower numbers than what I had in GT5.

I think the first thing everyone needs to do is essentially forget about GT5 and look at this as a completely different game. I wouldn't expect a setup from GTR2 to feel exactly the same on the same car in Project Cars, so why should we expect it when moving from GT5 to GT6? One of the main pieces of promotional material from PD about GT6 was the "All new physics model".

I am not claiming to be right, and I am not claiming that anything is proven. More data and more testing will confirm or refute any and all theories. I am only stating that based on my personal findings ( as posted yesterday) and very subjective "feel" of the cars, I am starting to believe that camber does work as it should. I think what we are now dealing with is more an issue of expectations and preconceptions.

Purely one man's opinion......

I agree that the tuning physics have changed since GT5, everything has had a clever, subtle overhaul. It was so subtle that its hard to notice unless you really get into it, the basic approaches to tuning are the same as GT5 but to get the most out of it you have to think about it more and make lots of little changes rather than big sweeping ones. I like it more this way but I can totally see why people mistakenly think its all the same as it was because it sort of still is.

* * * * * * * * * *

Bonus Project

​

Now we have some sets of data on record lets try and use this to make the car faster, the base tune of the car will remain the same but you may submit camber settings to be independently tested.

The cars will be tested back to back against the 0.0 camber base tune, the 1st test will be at High Speed Ring and the venue and conditions of the 2nd test will be up to the tester.

This is an informal test and the results will have no bearing on the overall conclusions of the experiment 👍

 

[DolHaus]

Updated results:

 

[ALB123]

I must have done something CRAZY on my 4.0 fastest lap between corners 3 & 4. Look at how low my lateral G load is for turn 3 and then notice how freakin' high it shoots up for turn 4. I must have deviated from my regular line somehow...I'll have to go back and watch the replay file for that lap. Great job @DolHaus!

 

[DolHaus]

I must have done something CRAZY on my 4.0 fastest lap between corners 3 & 4. Look at how low my lateral G load is for turn 3 and then notice how freakin' high it shoots up for turn 4. I must have deviated from my regular line somehow...I'll have to go back and watch the replay file for that lap. Great job @DolHaus!

I think I'm going to play around with the numbers and remove the highest and lowest values from each set, there are a few odd peaks that are throwing the averages slightly. Now we have a larger spread of data we can be a little more selective and pick out the anomalies 👍

I should be able to get the speed data put into graphs tomorrow, the longitudinal data is still a mess so I think I will remove it from Part 2 and set up a small bonus test to determine the patterns there.

 

[ALB123]

I think I'm going to play around with the numbers and remove the highest and lowest values from each set, there are a few odd peaks that are throwing the averages slightly. Now we have a larger spread of data we can be a little more selective and pick out the anomalies 👍

I should be able to get the speed data put into graphs tomorrow, the longitudinal data is still a mess so I think I will remove it from Part 2 and set up a small bonus test to determine the patterns there.

I think removing the highest and lowest is probably a very good idea.

 

[F1Racer68]

I see everyone elses results supported the pattern I was expecting. For this track at least.

Thanks for compiling it all @DolHaus. I'm looking forward to seeing the results from test 2.

 

[DolHaus]

 

[Otaliema]

I promise the data for my tests is coming lol hard to upload anything with no working computer. I am also going to do a full systems check on the wheel I get weired swimming on straights when the sensitivity is set to 6 or higher. Want to make sure there is not a software bug in the wheel or something like that.
As promised I will finish the test set at HSR on my controller for consistanty. The graphs look great nice color set easy to read.

 

[DolHaus]

I promise the data for my tests is coming lol hard to upload anything with no working computer. I am also going to do a full systems check on the wheel I get weired swimming on straights when the sensitivity is set to 6 or higher. Want to make sure there is not a software bug in the wheel or something like that.
As promised I will finish the test set at HSR on my controller for consistanty. The graphs look great nice color set easy to read.

The straight line wobble is normal with a wheel, you've just got to hold it straight or it wanders apparently. From what I've read, this is common to all force feedback wheels at some level. 👍
Once your data is uploaded I will get it entered into the tables and charts, no rush at all. I'm going to start looking at ways of smoothing out the data to help highlight the patterns, as expected there are a few anomalies in the data which can throw the averages when using a relatively small pool of data sources. I feel by removing these values we might get a clearer picture of the trends, removing the highest and lowest point and averaging the remaining values might paint a clearer picture.

 

[ALB123]

My DFGT wheel wobbles if I let go of it on straights. Some suspension setups wobble much worse than others, but I would think the majority do wobble. I don't take my hands off the wheel often for obvious reasons.

 

[Otaliema]

My DFGT wheel wobbles if I let go of it on straights. Some suspension setups wobble much worse than others, but I would think the majority do wobble. I don't take my hands off the wheel often for obvious reasons.

Ok good to know does your FF motor just slowly rock back n forth on the straights if you have your sensitivity set up really high? Cause that's what mine is doing combined with a FF dead spot of about an inch of rotation each way I can't control the swim.

 

[F1Racer68]

The straight line wobble is normal with a wheel, you've just got to hold it straight or it wanders apparently. From what I've read, this is common to all force feedback wheels at some level. 👍

I'm not sure what PDs intent is with the wobble, but it is normal. On PC based sims the "wobble" is actually very realistic as it is intended to simulate the normal vibrations you would feel through the wheel and chassis from the engine. Most PC sims replicate it quite nicely. If that is PDs intention as well, then they have work to do........

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[ALB123]

Ok good to know does your FF motor just slowly rock back n forth on the straights if you have your sensitivity set up really high? Cause that's what mine is doing combined with a FF dead spot of about an inch of rotation each way I can't control the swim.

Yes. That sounds pretty much like how my wheel operates.

 

[Thorin Cain]

You guys aren't doing the wheel manufacturers chances of getting my money any favours, you do know this right?

 

[DolHaus]

You guys aren't doing the wheel manufacturers chances of getting my money any favours, you do know this right?

Its a feature not a fault- GT6 now with auto-Manji (Who says they never do anything for the drift community)

 

[ALB123]

You guys aren't doing the wheel manufacturers chances of getting my money any favours, you do know this right?

You don't use a wheel? Oh gosh...Why not? I can't fathom how any car enthusiast or racing enthusiast would want to play a game like GT6 with a freakin' controller. The only reason I even got into GT6 in the first place is because a buddy of mine gave me his used DFGT. Then I bought GT6 on a whim just to see what it was like. My PS3 hadn't been used in like 2-3 years and I figured the worst that would happen is I blew $50 or whatever it was on the game. Turns out I love the game, but I would have never even bothered if I had to use a controller.

 

[Thorin Cain]

You don't use a wheel? Oh gosh...Why not? I can't fathom how any car enthusiast or racing enthusiast would want to play a game like GT6 with a freakin' controller. The only reason I even got into GT6 in the first place is because a buddy of mine gave me his used DFGT. Then I bought GT6 on a whim just to see what it was like. My PS3 hadn't been used in like 2-3 years and I figured the worst that would happen is I blew $50 or whatever it was on the game. Turns out I love the game, but I would have never even bothered if I had to use a controller.

I could only afford the £320 for the PS3 and £105 for GT5 "Signature Edition" at the time and had space issues, which have since been resolved. So I'm looking into it right now:tup: Need to make sure I get one that'll be PS4 compatible so I can go spend another £400 when GT 7 hits.

 

[DolHaus]

I could only afford the £320 for the PS3 and £105 for GT5 "Signature Edition" at the time and had space issues, which have since been resolved. So I'm looking into it right now:tup: Need to make sure I get one that'll be PS4 compatible so I can go spend another £400 when GT 7 hits.

Yeah I'm in the same boat, I'd like a wheel but its either got to be next gen compatible or really cheap

 

[Thorin Cain]

Yeah I'm in the same boat, I'd like a wheel but its either got to be next gen compatible or really cheap

Amen to that!

 

[Otaliema]

Yeah I'm in the same boat, I'd like a wheel but its either got to be next gen compatible or really cheap

At this point the only wheel confirmed comparable with the pa4 is the TS300 all Logitech wheels are unsupported but who know wheat will happen in a year. Right now a DFGT is around 100 USD on Amazon so it's a great deal just get a good condition if avalible fair is what I got it works has some crayon marks on it but other wise it's great.
Lots of colapsabile stand designs out there for space saving.

 

[ALB123]

Yes...I definitely agree that if you were thinking of getting a wheel you might as well get something PS4 compatible. Unfortunately, I think only the Thrustmaster T300RS is the ONLY official PS4 supported wheel at the moment. That kind of stinks that there is only one option. I've heard people say that the T500 works too, but the Thrustmaster website doesn't list the T500 as being fully PS4 compliant.

Personally, I'll be waiting until I hear a lot of reviews on GT7 before I even consider purchasing a PS4 and GT7 because once you throw in the cost for a new wheel I'll be looking at almost $1000 investment just to play GT7. If GT7 doesn't blow everybody's mind GT6 will be the only version of Gran Turismo I ever play. I'd rather spend the money building a gaming PC and going that route. But...no reason to worry about that stuff now.

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus I've finished my testig with my DS3 how ever the G force numbers for Turn 1 are very wacky and some how Motec added 3 turns to the track?....I've confirmed it's showing the new turns on the old log files. But the G force numbers are the same as previous for T1 in the data sets 0-5 camber.
Google Doc for easy reading. it's just a text wall if I paste it in here.