The Great Camber Experiment: Stage 1 "High Speed Ring" (closed/finished/ended)

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by DolHaus, Nov 25, 2014.

  1. ALB123

    ALB123

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    I think I might go and try the setup of Round 1. I know that data submission is closed now. I just want to see how I measure up, for my own kicks. Are these still the instructions (found on page one)?

    Instructions:
    1)
    Build car to exact specifications as detailed in the link
    2) Enter Arcade Time Trial
    3) Under track settings set grip reduction to "Real"
    4) Set equal front/rear camber
    5) Test drive the car (10-15 laps recommended)
    6) Record "Best Lap Replay"
    7) Export data via USB for use with MoTeC i2
    8) Analyse data and find peak lateral/longitudinal figures for each corner as illustrated on the map above.

    So, we only want to record the Best Lap Replay?

    @DolHaus Okay... I'm pretty sure I own one of those Jags and if not, I will purchase one post-haste!

    EDIT: I read the part about you not having chosen a tune yet... Shouldn't we keep the tune the same then? I am glad we're keeping the car consistent throughout the rounds.
     
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  2. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Data submission is still open and will remain open even after the next test is launched (on-going study), I look forward to your results :tup:

    Best lap replay data only please, you will need to leave the track when you change camber settings to reset the best lap.

    Previous ideas about running on an oval might have required a different car running a different tune but I have concluded that the ovals we have at our disposable are unsuitable for the purposes. As the next test will be essentially the same we can use the same car and tune as this first test, the only variable we are changing is track camber.

    (Having done a few laps around SSR5 I might need to adjust the brake balance slightly but this shouldn't affect the data we are looking at)
     
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  3. ALB123

    ALB123

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    Ok great! Forgive me for having so many questions. I notice in the tune that we are using we are applying the Aero Kit A, Flat Floor A and then it says to add a Custom Rear Wing. Pardon my ignorance, but do the different types of Custom Wings change anything aerodynamically from one another or is the only difference cosmetic? Same question regarding the height and width. There shouldn't be any measurable differences if you and I happened to apply different Height and Width values, would there be? Again, I just don't want to potentially poison the study if I am operating with a slightly different aerodynamic vehicle than you.

    EDIT: And are we all using the same brake balance? The tune calls for 3/5.
     
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  4. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Its fine, don't worry about it, questions mean you're paying attention :lol:
    As far as I'm aware the different custom wings are identical in function so you may choose what ever style you like as long as a wing is fitted. Brake balance is the same for every one.

    I only ask that you practice the circuit using the car before starting the test to alleviate the effects of track/car learning on the data. Please make sure you can run reasonably consistent laps before beginning the test, I will leave it up to your own discretion when defining consistency though. :tup:
     
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  5. ALB123

    ALB123

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    Wouldn't you know that I'd go out there and run 20 laps, leaving me remarkably satisfied with my camber 0.0/0.0 results only to then remember I never lowered the downforce in Car Settings from the default of 15 to the tune's setting of 6! :banghead: Surprisingly, I was still able to get pretty close to my best lap time with the incorrect downforce. After adjusting it to 6, like the tune requires, my best lap time was only off my 0.050 seconds exactly! :D I hope to God my lap times stay like this as I start to add increasing amounts of camber. You have no idea how nervous I am doing this... I thought Seasonal Events stressed me out. :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
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  6. ALB123

    ALB123

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    Oh no! Did anyone have a problem when opening the MoTeC log file of your Best Lap? You know how it makes a track map? Well, mine is showing a straight line and it's really strange. I've never seen this before. Fortunately, the data is accurate, as near as I can tell. One strange thing I've noticed with MoTeC files is the lap times are always like 0.01 or 0.02 seconds different than what Gran Turismo said my lap time was.
     
  7. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Relax, you'll be fine :lol:

    Just remember that the results are what they are, if they appear different to other peoples then that's fine. No need to do them all in one shot either :tup:

    As long as the data looks right then that's as good as we can ask for.
    And yes, the game and the data logger seem to disagree about the lap times slightly, no idea why :lol: (Please use Motec number for final write up :tup:)
     
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  8. ALB123

    ALB123

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    Thanks @DolHaus.. Oh, I always stress at things like this. I just want to do a good job, that's all. Right now I have set the two lowest lap times with Camber 0/0 and Camber 1/1. And don't worry, I'm saving the full replays too, lest we get concerned about abnormal lap times. So far, mine have been very consistent...thank god. THAT is what I was more worried about. On a course like this, it's not the biggest accomplishment in the world to set a good lap time, but when the courses start getting twisty, then I'm going to need a new stick of deodorant. :lol: Okay...I'll see how many of these I can get done tonight. Thanks for all your help DolHaus. :tup:

    EDIT: Don't take this as a complaint, but I still think that doing camber values of 7/7, 8/8, 9/9 and 10/10 are probably unnecessary. I think we can all agree that there will NEVER be a situation where 10/10 camber is going to benefit a lap time. The entire reason we are running this experiment is because it's so hard to tell if SMALL amounts of camber are effective in producing quicker lap times than 0/0... I will complete all trials, however, and perhaps I will be surprised at some point on some track.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
  9. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Hey ALB, Great to see you stepped up to bat:tup: Don't be worried, seriously. The important thing is the taking part, I'm sure your more than capable of getting some good laps to provide the data required. There's no pressure to be super fast..... just as long as you're faster than @TurnLeft. Or you'll never hear the end of it! :lol: I hear he has some new taunts and speeches prepared for the next time he's lucky enough to beat someone at anything. But don't be :scared: I don't think it happens too often;) (And no TurnLeft I haven't forgotten you took my scalp in the Luxury Karting:banghead:)

    As far as running the higher values go I'm with you 7,8,9&10 are unnecessary to me too, but they were quite fun, especially10/10, 4wheeled ice skating is a fun sport:crazy:. You never know, the next test may be different, but only @DolHaus has the answers.

    And yes, I ran all 11 tests exactly as mandated. Car Set-up precisely as shown, right down to the paint, same wheels you name it. Track settings and driver aids too. Every detail checked before and after the tests, just to make sure.

    Good luck with your runs. I look forward to seeing how you get on.:cheers:
     
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  10. F1Racer68

    F1Racer68

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    Well, data collection is finally done. I will try to get analysis done in the next few days. I did see an interesting pattern develop for my lap times though. Lap times improved up to the 2.0 mark, and then started to fall again up to the 5.0 mark. From 6.0 through 10.0 my lap times remained pretty darn close to each other, as in 7,8 and 9 were within 1/100th of each other.

    Best lap was at camber 2.0 = 1:05.010.
    Slowest best lap was at camber 10.0 = 1:06.405
    Camber 0.0 = 1:05.996.

    More details soon ( I hope). The Holidays have been busier than expected.
     
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  11. ALB123

    ALB123

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    If anyone is interested in seeing my data so far, I have only completed the 0.0 / 0.0 thru 4.0 / 4.0 camber values...
    Click on the graphics for full size.
    Camber_Test_Rd_1_0 thru 4.png
    Here is a screenshot of MoTeC i2 Pro with the best laps for each camber value. The top chart shows Minimum, Maximum and Average values for G Forces (Long), G Forces (Lat) and Corrected Vehicle Speed. The chart in the middle/bottom shows my best lap time for each camber value broken down by straight's and corner's on High Speed Ring. I wouldn't put a ton of stock in those times because I had to manually define what is a straight and what is a corner, to the exact foot along the length of the track. It was a pain in the butt, however, it was necessary to get the important data.



    Here is the full chart of all of the laps that I "officially" ran grouped by each camber value setting. I actually ran more laps with two of the camber values, but I had to restart due to my steering wheel becoming disconnected from my pedals twice!! :banghead: You'll notice a couple of laps had much higher times due to my automobile getting a little too friendly with the guardrails... :lol: :crazy: :yuck: I actually ran 13 laps on 0.0 / 0.0 and had a teeny bit faster of a best lap time and then, as I saved the Replay file it occurred to me that I had never lowered the stock rear wing downforce from 15 to 6, so I scrapped all those laps and started over with the data you see here.

    Camber_Test_Rd_1_0 thru 4(part B).png
     
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  12. mustangxr

    mustangxr

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    Cargo,

    I don't know how relevant this is, but I have owned this "test" car when it first came out in Australia. (1966) This, is NOT a car. It is a motorcycle with 4 wheels. Did you know that it has a chain drive on each of the rear wheels? Did you know that it is impossible to run radial tires on this car?? (It is impossible to keep it on the road with radials, ask me how I know this)

    My description for this car was "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" with apologies to William Shakespear.
    The only fun thing about this car was to rev it out to 11,000 RPM in every gear and find yourself doing 70 mph at the end of time?!?!?

    My car previous to the Honda was an Austin Healey Bug-eyed Sprite which was a real car, the Honda was not.

    This dissertation may not be valid though since PD will probably not replicate the swing arm suspension on the rears in their engineering model.

    Cheers, Pete
     
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  13. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I agree that 7-10 are a little unnecessary but we need to document the whole range during these early phases to get the complete picture. I might make them optional in the second test, I know its a bit of a pain but we need to be thorough :tup:

    My nan had a Frog-eye Sprite, she loved that car but the car did not love the midlands where she lived. Constant rust problems, every time you replaced one rusty panel you'd find a new bit somewhere else that needed replacing :lol:
     
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  14. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    I'm looking forward to seeing your results. That pattern [​IMG], it sounds. No, sorry reads quite familiar. But I I think your progressions and losses in Lap-time, may just paint a nicer picture on @DolHaus' graph than mine. But I'm sure there's no rush. We'll be here for a while :D

    See, and here you were :nervous:. Nice job @ALB123! :tup: And thanks for giving us all those lovely numbers to crunch :D Very well presented too! Can't wait...but I'm going to have to. I'm just a lot too tired right now for that.:lol: It's way past my bedtime!

    Oh, and a little friend wants to say something too. [​IMG] To both of you.
     
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  15. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Just a FYI for all testers you don't have to leave arcade mode to rest best lap, you can just remove/reset best lap just be sure you save your best lap prior to doing tgat, you can then load your previous best lap so you have a line to follow.
     
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  16. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Not 100% sure on that, I've experienced it taking the previous best lap even if you clear the learderboards and ghosts. The step is in place just to prevent this happening :tup:
     
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  17. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Hmm GT is odd, :odd: I've not had this problem maybe it was some weired glitch when that happened to you. Can alway skip the best lap load so it's a clear track. Do you recall if it you had loaded the previous best lap when that happened or was it a clear run?
     
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  18. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    No idea, probably not as I hate chasing the ghost :lol: I just remember it happening before and didn't want other peoples results to get screwed up
     
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  19. ALB123

    ALB123

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    One thing that is a royal pain in the butt is, when you go to export MoTeC Data to a USB stick, if you export your 0.0/0.0 lap and then immediately try to export the 1.0/1.0 lap it will tell you that there is already a file on the USB stick. I think it's because it exports the file with a filename made up of the date & time. I didn't encounter this while testing last night. I encountered this a week or so ago when trying to export a couple of different replay files to mess around with MoTeC. This really surprised me because I was exporting a replay file of an M4 on Brands Hatch and then a replay file of an Aventador on Bathurst. When GT6 told me it couldn't export the second file I was so confused. At the time I wasn't paying attention to how it names the exported log files.

    So, just to make sure I don't run into any problems I have been following @DolHaus's advice. I run my laps and then I save the Replay and the Best Lap Replay. I exit out to the main menu, go into the Gallery and export the Replay file as MoTeC Data. Then I put the stick in my laptop and copy the file to the HDD. Finally, I go back to the PS3 and resume my GT6 session after increasing the camber amount.

    It's a real pain in the butt this way, especially since I have to unplug & plugin my headphones receiver because the PS3 only has 2 USB ports every time I complete a testing cycle. Maybe today I will run the remaining laps (Camber 5.0/5.0 thru 10.0/10.0) and try waiting a couple of minutes between exporting each file, but doing them all together, so each MoTeC Log File receives a unique file name.

    @DolHaus: I'm sure you noticed the screenshots that I included in my previous post. I provided all of that data because I figured if anyone wanted to peek at it, they could see my entire testing session in one nice package, however, I know that for your sake that is probably a very messy and unnecessary amount of data. How could I better present the data to you, so it's easiest for YOU to collect the data quickly and effortlessly? You're only really interested in the total lap time (my best lap time) and then the speed of each corner, along with the Longitudinal & Latitudinal G Forces, right? But do you want/need to have Minimum, Maximum and Average values? Or do you only want the Maximum Speed and the Maximum Long & Lat G Forces, with the lap time? I'm assuming all you really need is this chart, right? But you don't want ALL of the rows, right? If you remind me exactly what you are collecting, I will make sure that my future screenshots have the useless data removed so you don't have to spend any additional time making sure you are looking at the right row/column.

    Camber_snippet_01.png

    Or, if you need MORE data, let me know...I just want to make this as painless as possible for you. Of course I will keep ALL of the data in my files, in case we need to go back into the Log File(s) at a later date, but with all the people submitting data to you, we should try to make it as uniform as possible so you can see just what you need and nothing extra. Please, let me know...
     
  20. faceman557

    faceman557

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    I have done an abridged version of this test, as I have no time, patience,or need to run the whole test. Also I'm in the "camber doesn't work" camp. That does not mean that I don't want it to work though.

    I ran my test starting at 4/4 camber. 15 laps or so till I was confident of an average time of 105.3 with a 105.232 fastest.
    All runs were flatout qualifying type runs,

    3/3, 10 laps 105.1 avg and 105.040 fastest.

    The rest of the runs were 5 laps or less as the fast lap was on lap 1 and/or 2.

    2/2 104.824 fastest.

    1/1 104.641 fastest.

    0/0 104.409 fastest.

    The 1/1 camber felt the best, but was not faster. Every drop in camber made the car "feel" better, up until 0/0. At 0/0 the car was more of a power steering car, but fast.

    Camber as of 12/29/14, ver.1.15
     
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  21. ALB123

    ALB123

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    OMFG! I just did 10 laps at 7.0/7.0 and then realized I have to leave for a doctor's appointment VERY soon. I freakin' exited out without saving my replay files.... :banghead: :mad: :banghead:
     
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  22. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    @DolHaus i have some sad news my laptop charging cable has gone kaput and I don't how soon I will be able to replace it my desktop is toast as well power surge fried the ram a couple of years ago.
    I will do the tests but I won't be able to get any data to you till I get my laptop up and running again.
     
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  23. ALB123

    ALB123

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    Since DolHaus has already stated that we can continue to add data throughout the experiment, like if someone else wants to join (I'm a good example, I'm just doing Round 1 right now), I'm sure it won't be a big issue or anything. I'm sure in the worst case scenario -- if you don't get your laptop fixed until we're concluding the entire experiment, it won't be a distraction to have to add all your Rounds into the mix, since you said youre going to continue to do the events and save the Replay files to the PS3 anyway. Good luck with your repairs! :tup:
     
  24. F1Racer68

    F1Racer68

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    Preliminary Data analysis is done. I have completed camber 0.0 through 5.0. The remainder will come later (possibly tomorrow).See my results below:

    upload_2014-12-29_17-54-9.png
    Now the Lap time and lateral G and Apex Speed data is accurate. I am however a bit concerned about my numbers fr Longitudinal Gs. I know I am a light braking driver. I use a G27 weheel and never exceed 50% braking, but my Lat G numbers seem significantly lower than all the others.

    For the record, all laps were dne with the follwoing settings:

    • G27 Wheel and pedals.
    • Wet and track edge to REAL
    • ABS = 1
    • Drivng Line = ON
    • All other aids = OFF/0
    • Jaguar XKS-R '11 set up as per @DolHaus tune (excellent tune BTW)
    • Racing Hard tires

    @DolHaus I filled out my data in your shared spreadsheet so that it is already included with that of yourself, @TurnLeft and @Thorin Cain . I will send you the completed file via PM as soon as I have entered the rest of the data.
     
  25. ALB123

    ALB123

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    I just finished with my 10.0/10.0 laps. I'm exporting MoTeC Data right now... I thought of something, probably when I was in the middle of my 9.0/9.0 runs... I should have started with 10.0/10.0 and worked my way back to 0.0/0.0... I did about 15 warm-up laps before I did my official 0.0/0.0 run on the High Speed Ring, but I firmly believe that my times would probably be even a little bit better if I completed the runs in reverse order (10.0/10.0...0.0/0.0). By time I was running on 10.0/10.0 I literally had like 170 laps under my belt. I guarantee I was driving the track cleaner, smoother and really hitting braking points and apex's where I wanted to more accurately than I did in the earlier rounds. I think that's going to be true probably for everybody. It doesn't mean the data is bad or anything, but I probably did better with 6.0/6.0, for instance, because of all the previous laps efforts than I would have if I started with 6.0/6.0... Am I being clear? I think for Round 2 I will try it that way. Start with 10.0/10.0 and work backwards, if DolHaus decides that he definitely still wants data all the way up to 10.0/10.0... If he changes it to a limit of 8.0/8.0, or whatever, I'll start from there then.

    Does anyone think I might have a point? Or do you think it's insignificant?

    EDIT: Oh, I also noticed that when you go into GALLERY to see your list of saved replay files, you can select one of those files and Edit Comments. I have been entering "Camber 1", "Camber 2", up to "Camber 10" just in case someone requests my replay file, or god forbid one of the MoTeC data logs gets corrupted somehow and I need to re-Export MoTeC Data from a particular run. Granted, people are probably running them in order, so you should be able to just look at which order a particular file sits, if you need to recall it at a later date, but this just makes me feel a little bit safer. I thought I would share.

    EDIT 2: Speaking of Replay files. Does anyone know if there is a limit as to how many you many have saved in GT6? I will burn the house down if I complete a good run of laps and get told I have no more slots available to save replay files... :D :lol:
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
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  26. ALB123

    ALB123

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    Here is a screengrab of the MoTeC data showing my 1st Round laps of Camber 5.0 thru 10.0. I've already posted the laps with Camber 0.0 thru 4.0 above. I'm only including the data that shows the best laps. I'm not including the 2nd type of screenshot that I provided in the previous post that shows every single lap recorded with each Camber setting. Why? Because I'm lazy and I don't want to have to take multiple screenshots and then stitch them together. That's why! If that information is required, of course, it will be posted immediately. I'm really bummed out because I did two laps just a hair under 1m06s with camber 7.0/7.0 and then I exited without saving either the entire replay or best lap replay. When I returned from my doctor's appointment and re-ran at 7.0/7.0 I could not crack 1m06s. Oh well...

    Camber_Test_Rd_1_5 thru 10.png

    Alright...At this point I don't know what to do. Am I supposed to enter the data into the official spreadsheet (or whatever type of document @DolHaus is using for our "official" results)? As far as I know, I'm finished with Round 1 of the Great Camber Experiment. Please let me know if I'm supposed to be doing something else, or if I haven't submitted enough data, or if you want it in a different format, etc. Thank you! :tup:
     
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  27. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Sorry folks, I'm a little busy at the moment, looks like we have some more results to upload so thank you to everyone who has participated :cheers:

    I will get everything read through and updated when I get the chance :tup:
     
  28. F1Racer68

    F1Racer68

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    My final results are finally submitted. I m sure @DolHaus will update the results when he has a chance.
     
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  29. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Nice job! :tup:

    And I don't think there is anything to be concerned about with regards to your Lateral G results. When I was running my tests and analysing my data I had noticed that in the corners where I was able to hold a smoother line the Lateral G's were lower than when I had to make corrections in the corner (Comparing the same corner over different test runs). I was fully expecting to see this as the main difference between our data sets.

    @ALB123, I like the idea of running the tests in declining order, it does mean that by the time you get to the sharp end, you will have had plenty of time to get use to the car and track combo. And this could help less consistent drivers like myself get a fairer results spread across the important low range of values range.:tup: I may consider doing the same myself for the next test.

    And sorry, not too sure how many replays you can keep on GT6 but I've had more than 30 in there without any problems.

    Good work with your tests guys. Glad to see some more data to help get us closer to a better understanding of how the camber settings are having an effect. I join DolHaus in thanking you for adding to the experiment with your time effort and data, not to mention some very good points for consideration in future tests.
    [​IMG]job guys!
     
  30. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    On the subject of the running order of the tests my stance is that no matter which end of the scale you start at you risk biasing the test slightly. This cannot really be avoided without either adopting a random numbers in the hat style approach to the order or running the test twice and averaging it out.

    I trust people to run the test in a way that will inflict no intentional bias so will not be stipulating that either of these steps are taken. If you choose to alter or randomise your approach then that is entirely up to you but please think it through first and try not to overcomplicate things :tup: