The Green Hell Project

B

BeardedWolf

253
United States
United States
So, I've always wanted to do time trails on the Nurburgring, so I am...across several games. I was gonna do the 24 Hour endurance course, but for the sake of conformity, I'm just doing Nordshliefe.

But, so far, the games are:


Project Gotham Racing 2 - Xbox - November 17, 2003
Gran Turismo 4 - Playstation 2 -December 28, 2004
Forza Motorsport - Xbox - May 5, 2005
Enthusia Professional Racing - Playstation 2 - May 17, 2005
Project Gotham Racing 3 - Xbox 360 - November 22, 2005
Tourist Trophy - Playstation 2 - April 4, 2006
Forza Motorsport 2 - Xbox 360 - May 29, 2007
Race 07 - PC - October 1, 2007
Project Gotham Racing 4 - Xbox 360 - October 2, 2007
iRacing - PC - August 26, 2008
Forza Motorsport 3 - Xbox 360 - October 27, 2009
Gran Turismo 5 - Playstation 3 - November 24, 2010
Need For Speed Shift 2 Unleashed - PC - March 29, 2011
Forza Motorsport 4 - Xbox 360 - October 11, 2011
rFactor 2 - PC - March 28, 2013
Gran Turismo 6 - Playstation 3 - December 6, 2013
Assetto Corsa - PC - December 19, 2014
Project Cars - Playstation 4 - May 6, 2015
Automobilista - PC - February 29, 2016
Ride 2 - PC - October 7, 2016
Project Cars 2 - Playstation 4 - September 21, 2017
Forza Motorsport 7 - PC - October 3, 2017
Gran Turismo Sport - Playstation 4 - October 17, 2017



23+ Games, 7000+ cars, over 100,000 miles.

Some minor rules:

1. For the sake of time, I'm allowing handling upgrades except for Shift 2 where I'm doing a Works Run. (Also, Assetto Corsa, the Project Gotham games and Project Cars 2 don't have upgrades, so those will be stock runs.)
2. Penalties off when I can. It's a 13 mile course, I'd rather not have to redo laps because I touched a wheel off and the game invalidated it. (This has caused me to do single races usually, because...it's just easier...and better. I can set it to one lap and not have to worry about over driving. No issues so far except AC because...it's AC.)

Notes:
- Generally, I'm run things either by class or by power. I like to do HP 'cause it gets faster and faster. But, some games, like PGR it's just easier to do by class. I won't do by make 'cause...some games have like 100 Fords and 100 Nissans and I'd rather not be stuck in a single make for 8 years.
- I'm not the Stig. My times probably won't be super awesome. That's not the point. The point is actually two fold: 1. Fun. 2. Curiosity. I want to do a master list at the end and compare the same car across different games. Because handling and physics models change. So, that will be interesting to see.
- I will add other games to the list later. I wanna add GT6, GT4, Tourist Trophy and Ride 3 just to have variety.
- No RaceRoom 'cause...I'm not paying $116 dollars for it. I mean, it has SOME free cars, but most of them are locked behind real money and no. Just no.
- I might add iRacing later. And I'll add AC2 eventually. And Grid 2019 if it has Nordshliefe.
- I have a life outside of this project. I have other projects I'm working outside of gaming, so...I will work on this when I feel like it, pretty much. Also, there are games coming out that will probably keep me from this like Cyberpunk 2077.

Link to my lap times: https://www.icloud.com/numbers/09vCxiiPKT8LaYvn9gJriUb0g#The_Green_Hell_Project_Super_List

(P.S. Mods, I have no idea where to put this. There's no "general racing game discussion" thread, so...I'm putting it here and you can move it if you want.
P.P.S. I'm starting with Assetto Corsa 'cause it's the earliest game I have access to. 'Cause I need a new 360 controller.)
 
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Yeah. But...If I did a car a day, I'd never finish the list. I mean...Forza 7 has like 837 cars. GTS has around 250....Yeah. I think I have like 2000+ cars to take around the Ring. It'll be fun. It's pretty relaxing.

I've found AC and GTS, if I'm doing single races, I HAVE to have an opponent. But, I might switch AC to PC 'cause I can just run Time Trials with no penalties on the PC version. And I can add mods. Although, in that case it might be lower on the list. Just because....the amount of cars will grow. That's why Forza 7 is last on the list. It has the most cars by far despite it coming out like a week before GTS. (That is until I add GT4 and GT6 to the list, at least. And who knows how many cars GT7 will have.)
 
Just a bit of trivia for you:

Assuming an average lap time of 8 and half minutes then 5000 laps will take around 30 days to complete - if you drive 24 hours a day, so if you budget for 2 hours a day it'll take you a year.

Also during that period you'll drive a distance equivalent to that of 2.6 times around the earth (64,500 miles), which just happens to be the distance the Earth covers in around an hour while orbiting the Sun.

Good luck mate.
 
There's a reason why I'm calling it the "Green Hell Project." Double meanings are fun.

Also, it'll actually be closer to 6000 laps. Especially with mods. But...A year of Nurburgring isn't bad. And I get to experience the track trough the years. (I think I'm going by car count now. Just because I need a Xbox 360 controller, a PS2 controller and memory card if my PS2 still works and a PS3. Maybe I'll get a racing wheel in there somewhere, but, we'll see.
 
So, after doing some thinking, I'm gonna go chronological order for games which currently puts GT4 and it's....well the 582 cars I'm doing first. I'm also not doing F1 style cars 'cause...we know they're super fast and...I don't wanna.
 
Editorials

Part 1: The Beginning - Project Gotham Racing 2 and Gran Turismo 4

So, what was the first non-F1 game to feature the Nordschleife? As far as I can tell, that honor belongs to Project Gotham Racing 2. A game, which I dismissed 'cause the amount of work to unlock it is...a lot, but now that I realize it's genesis, I might go ahead and add it back to the list. PGR2 is the sequel to Project Gotham Racing (duh) which is a spiritual sequel to the Dreamcast game Metropolis Street Racer. It was MSR where the Kudos system that is seen in...MANY games today started.

Project Gotham Racing 2 was developed by now defunct Bizarre Creations and I, at least, consider that series to be incredibly important. I mean, it was also one of the first "serious" racers that featured trucks and SUVs, including the Ram SRT10 as a DLC and as well as having the Kudos system and trucks, it also featured the Nurburgring Nordschliefe. Though, the Nurburgring has appeared in earlier games - going all the way back to Endurance in 1985. Endurance was a Superbike sim. - It was it's appearance in PGR2 that started a trend. Also, having a serious, technical track like the Nordshleife in PGR2, definitely cemented the series' theme of straddling the line between a arcade racer and a simulator, something the NFS series has tried a few times and I think Project Cars does to an extent today.

However, I don't think it was until Nordschleife's inclusion in Gran Turismo 4 that REALLY inspired it to be put in...every other racing game under the sun. Like, you couldn't really take yourself seriously as a racing sim if you DIDN'T have Nordschleife after that. GT4 came out a year after PGR2 and featured 700+ cars. Whereas PGR focused on more sporty vehicles, GT4 was focused on automotive history and featured everything from Modern LMPs to the Honda Element to the Toyota Prius and the 1hp Diamler Motor Carriage. GT4 also has HDTV support, which...for this project, is welcome.


NOTE: I'll periodically post this as I get to each game. Do a little history. Not really a review, just talking about the games and why they are important or what makes them unique. I will probably also start pictures when I can.
 
So, executive decision: I won't be doing ALL of the cars in PGR2. I've unlocked most of them. I think my plan is to come back to it at some other date and finish it, but for now...I'm running what I got with unlocked.

Also, gonna add total times per game. Should be...scary.
 
I remember being introduced to the Ring via PGR2 it was dazzling that a track so big was in a game. At first I remember thinking how am I ever going to learn all of this, it seemed far too much to take in at the time. It was a great experience that led into GT4's version, which was quite a shock as it was so narrow, had more elevation & bumps, it was amazing! I couldn't get enough of it. Great memories :)
 
Yeah. I am impressed with PGR2 in that it has an actual see-through ghost, which...GT4 does not...a game on a newer, better system with all those lovely better graphics and it has a VERY not-see-through ghost. So...props to Bizarre Creations in that forward thinking. You don't know how important is until, you're on the ring and the your ghost is blocking your view.

Anyway...I also have a dilemma: Google docs, for, whatever reason, can't add the times together. But...Apple's Pages can. So, what I might end up doing it making pages the main place I put in times and then I can just have a super list of every car, every game, every time on Google docs. So the list you guys see probably won't get updated much. Once I finish a game, I'll just add it to the Super List and probably have it default sorted by time.
 
So, I'm adding GT5 and Forza 1-3 to the list. No 5 and 6 'cause I don't want to buy another Xbox One. If Forza 5 and 6 come to Play Anywhere, sure. I would to GT6: Apex, but...I don't know. I might have to do testing on that one.
 
I hope you already have all of the cars in GT5, as obtaining all of them is a feat in itself (I'm sure the same applies to other games on your list).
 
Barra333
I hope you already have all of the cars in GT5, as obtaining all of them is a feat in itself (I'm sure the same applies to other games on your list).
Click to expand...

I don't remember. I think I should have all the cars. But...not entirely sure. We'll see when I get a PS3 and if those game files still exist in the cloud.

I know Forza 1 is gonna be a pain. The PS2 games I can cheat. Forza 1 I can cheat to either unlock all the cars and start at level 50 or have 900,000,000 credits at the start. The problem with the level 50 start, is you don't get any of the rewards, so, it'd be far more grinding. So, I'm doing he 900 mill start.

But yeah. Like Gran Turismo Sport I've been doing 3 daily laps via custom race so I have a chance of either unlocking one of the super expensive cars or getting enough money too. (Although, I might just switch to time trials 'cause I've worked out I can't actually earn enough money from the dailies to buy the 15-20 million credit cars.)

Most of the Forza games are great for this 'cause I think like 2-7 I can just drive all the cars from the start via rentals. But...I guess that will be part of the journey: Unlocking or buying all the cars.
 
Editorials:

Part 2: The Ugly

So, I want to talk about horrible, horrible game physics in this one and the horrors that face me when I get into the Xbox 360-Current gen games. I've been doing daily laps in GT Sport to try and get those illusive 15-20 million credit cars without actually having to spend the money. (And if GTS's economy was better, this wouldn't be a problem. This is, one of the ugly things I'm gonna end up facing soon: Crappy economies.) And there's an issue I keep running into...horrible vehicle physics. And I realize that GTS....definitely won't be the only where this will be annoying. Forza 7's reused Vans, SUVs and Pickups all have those awful, top heavy physics that mean they roll if you decide you want to go in any direction other than straight.

Gran Turismo Sport is a little better 'cause I just stiffen the sway bars to fix MOST of the problems, but there's still the stupid endo-physics on some of the front wheel drive cars where they'll pick up the back end of the car under heavy braking. Fixing this would probably require adding a rear spoiler, but that's not something I can do in GTS, so...Luckily, I'm mostly out of the endo-cars. However, I just did the Jaguar E-type and...I get the Nurburgring's curbing can induce rolls 'cause they can be massive, but...it rolled on much smaller curbing that shouldn't have been an issue, too. Reminded me of the Forza SUVs.

This....is gonna be the worst part of this project. And I'm already saying that if I were giving reviews, FM7 and GTS would definitely get marked down for this problem. I mean, I can't take a "simulator" seriously as a simulator if the VW Bus rolls at the drop of a hat. Or a VW Golf tries to do a handstand every time I touch the brakes. That's just a bad physics model.

To be honest, I feel like the games like GT4 where you physically CAN'T roll a car over are gonna be far more enjoyable. I mean, to be honest, I'd much rather be prevented from rolling over than, like with the Toyota Hilux Artic Truck, rollover every time I turn.

FM7 has fixed this problem with the newer SUVs like the Bentley Bentayga and Jaguar F-Pace, but the older models are still a bit too top heavy. Hopefully the handling upgrades will fix most of it, but...I feel like when I get there, you'll be able to tell the older games and models from the newer, less rolly SUVs just by the lap times. "Oh look the SUVs in PGR2 had faster times than their counterparts in Forza 7." Yeah, that's because the ones in Forza 7 rolled constantly. I'll endure it for science, but...I'm going to hate it. It's going to be painful. I guess it'll just be proof that, in someways, the current generation of racing games is inferior to say GT4 and Enthusia.

Also, I realize that I think this hate spiral of annoying awful physics will start with FM1...which is next on my list. I believe it had rollover physics and the SUVs were top heavy then...which, in someways is fair. SUVs are generally top heavy, but...Active Stability Control was invented to prevent SUV rollovers and it was so effective that it has been mandatory on ALL vehicles sine like 2001 which is before ANY of the games on this list were released. I guess, any vehicle older than 2001 would make more since, I still is a bit cringe worthy when something like the Artic Truck, a truck probably designed specifically to NOT roll over considering it was traversing the arctic terrain, rolls over so easily.
 
I am officially a tenth of the way through the 580 cars I'm doing for GT4. And I've not above 100HP yet. Close, though. The Ginetta G4 was a bit more floaty than I expected. But the hybrids were fun. They tended to get off the line quick as expected, but they all hated the hills. It's also been a sea of Kei Cars. Not that they're bad. I'm having fun, but, I also can't wait for variety. I think that's one thing that separates Forza from Gran Turismo: GT has all these minor variations. Even with GTS you have the 2016 and 2015 Renault Clio RS Trophy. And while Forza has much less of it. But, GTS also doesn't have a lot of it for having 280 cars. So, they're learning. But that also makes Forza 7 and that series a bit more annoying 'cause with Gran Turismo 4 I eliminated like 140 cars, with Forza 7 I can probably forgo like 50 or so cars 'cause there's SO MUCH variety. I mean it's 700 unique cars verses 500 unique cars. So, not that much difference, I guess, but...I feel Forza will take the longest to complete.
 
This is a massive undertaking and I applaud you whether you achieve your goal or not.

Personally, while I do dig some retro sim racing occasionally, I could not deal with those old physics or graphics at that extended level.

I have a good PC and an Xbox one X, and think it would be fun with all titles from 2014 to present.

If in the future you want someone to complete lap times in the sims you're not doing I'd be glad to help your spreadsheet.
 
Thanks. I don't know whether I will complete it or not, either. It's...a lot of laps and...life PGR2 took 12 hours, and I'm 11 hours into GT4 and 8 hours into GTS. So..it's already taken nearly a full day with the little I have. I think I could easily do it in a year without much distractions, but...it's not supposed to be a all out thing, just a casual thing. So...Hopefully, I can get to a point where I'm all caught up and I can do a better thing where when I'm playing say GT7 or Forza 8, I can buy a car, handling upgrades and do a lap with it. But, again we'll see. There's nothing with Nordschleife in it until possibly Grid 2019 and then...it's GTR3 and PC3 next year.

Also, I'm swapping out Ride 3 with Ride 2 'cause...Ride 2 was on sale.
 
Unexpected problem: I was using an emulator for the PS2 games on this list, but as of this morning, it's not responding to any inputs. So...I'll either have to get it fixed or just break down and buy a PS2 and the games. And I don't know when that will be. If I have to buy a console, that's not happening until like January 'cause I have bills to pay. I'm sad. I was looking forward to Enthusia. But I guess, onto FM1 for now.
 
I think if I was gonna do Ferrari Legends, I would just do Supercar Challenge. It has a lot of Ferrari's too and some extra for good measure. Although...I didn't realize it Ferrari Legends was an SMS game. But it's also a Test Drive game. Hmmm....I might get it just to check it out. That and Supercar Challenge.
 
BeardedWolf
I think if I was gonna do Ferrari Legends, I would just do Supercar Challenge. It has a lot of Ferrari's too and some extra for good measure. Although...I didn't realize it Ferrari Legends was an SMS game. But it's also a Test Drive game. Hmmm....I might get it just to check it out. That and Supercar Challenge.
Click to expand...

There are 2 Ferrari games, but only 1 has the Nordschleife.

Test Drive: Ferrari Racing Legends is made by SMS and is based on the Shift 2 engine. This has the Nordschleife.

Ferrari Challenge: Trofeo Pirelli is made by Eutechnyx. Supercar Challenge is an expanded version of this game. It only has Nürburgring GP not Nordschleife.
 
You should do GPL. Arguably the grand daddy of racing sims and probably the first serious attempt at modelling the Nordschleife in a racing game.



Good luck with the project 👍 I'd love to do something similar but other games and real life always gets in the way unfortunately :lol:
 
I hear ya about life and other games getting in the way. 2020 is gonna be a slow year for this project.

On the GPL note, a few things:

1. I'm not that big of a fan of open wheel racing. I'm not doing the F1 and Indy cars in the other games 'cause...well, to me, it's kind of boring and I already know they're super fast. I mean, If I didn't do the VGT cars, the top like 100 places would end up being the F1/Indy cars. They're specifically designed to be insanely fast.

2. GPL uses an older version of the Ring. Much older. So, I don't know if the times would match up well. I switched to just doing Nordschleife for consistency and I think the 1966 version of the ring was a bit longer.

3. It might be harder to get the game to work. I dropped Sports Car GT because I just couldn't get it to run. So, as much as I would love to explore those older games, I don't wanna deal with some of the...challenges. I mean, I also would love to do GTAV with mods, but...that's proven to be too much of a challenge. Though, I feel getting a 31 year old game to work on Windows 10 might be slightly less of a challenge.
 

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