The gt 5 ces sound!!!

[Terronium-12]

....

Why do I even bother?

 

[eSZee]

Tell me you're joking.

 

[hardvibes]

You know why I don't believe that rumor about damage being redesigned?
1)because the E3 concept trailer (june) showed dents, meaning that's what they want to put in the final game. The gamescom demo (august) didn't have any dents. Why whould they redesign/reprogram the damage system if it's already a work in progress with details (such as dents) that were not even showed in-game to the public?
2)because Yamauchi said that was the result of only 2 months of work and since they are perfectionists (It takes weeks to create a single side mirror) they wouldn't even think of putting low quality aethetic damage on their 400.000 poly models.

 

[Terronium-12]

Tell me you're joking.

I don't know if that's a response to what I said, but how you go from "That's a good question...." to this comes off as if you're just looking to start an argument.

You know why I don't believe that rumor about damage being redesigned?
1)because the E3 concept trailer (june) showed dents, meaning that's what they want to put in the final game. The gamescom demo (august) didn't have any dents. Why whould they redesign/reprogram the damage system if it's already a work in progress with details (such as dents) that were not even showed in-game to the public?
2)because Yamauchi said that was the result of only 2 months of work and since they are perfectionists (It takes weeks to create a single side mirror) they wouldn't even think of putting low quality aethetic damage on their 400.000 poly models.

As for this, I heard it somewhere but I honestly don't remember where. To be on the safe side, I'll drop it as I probably won't be able to retrieve the proof considering I don't remember where I saw it.

 

[hardvibes]

I agree let's drop it (we're OT too ).

 

[speedfreak69]

Ok, I've written in more detail about the sound issues of GT before, so now(after CES videos), I'd just like to get back to the basics and also, admit that from the hyped optimism, I switched to rather more realistic pessimism...
Firstly, I'd like to say that the sound(mostly engine sound) in these type of games is probably as important as graphics and physics, and maybe over time it gets even more important then graphics, because if you think about it, when you get over the awesome graphics and car modeling(GT standard for years now), the only things that actually excite you(specially when you're driving from cockpit view) are physics and the sound.
Although it's much fun when you nail the corner just right, or you execute a perfect drift, but that can't really be compared to the ever-present sound which is always "around" you...💡
I suppose everyone here is a car-nut at least in some sense and you all know how exciting it is to hear an American V8 rumble, Italian V8 symphony, German V10 howl, Zonda's V12 shriek or Japan's famous tuned I6,V6 or VTEC I4 engines! 👍
Gran Turismo was always lacking in this department and there were just a few cars(out of hundreds) that had similar sound to their real life counterparts, and that actually did excite you, and for the same reason I didn't drive some of the cars that I really wanted to drive JUST because the sound was crappy and didn't fit the awesomeness of the real car it's based on...
I was hopeful(although this is PD's 5th game), because KY said that the sound will be one of the areas which would receive total overhaul and I thought that all these demos they were showing around contained old sound engine, as to make a bigger impact when we actually get the full game, but after the last videos, I'm not too sure about that.
Take the Gallardo, which is a new car in GT. It has kind of a similar sound to the real thing, but in the old PD fashion, and that means weak, lifeless, synthetic, horrible high rpms, no difference in how much you press the gas pedal and so on...👎
That could also be one of the old sounds reworked just for the show, but that argument seems kinda weak now, with the game probably done, since the release date is so close...
My final conclusion is probably that PD's sound team just doesn't know how to keep the sound "alive" from original source through all the stages of recording, mixing, coding the sound engine etc....and it definitely ISN'T a fault of either the console(way back on ps2 nfs underground had some of the best engine sounds ever, not to mention PC titles, MOD scene etc)or audio hardware of each and everyone of you, because awesome sound sounds good even on a cheap 5$ headphones, let a lone on a surround systems!!!
And that makes me sad, because even I did sounds(as a hobby sound modder for TDU) much better than PD has to offer and I just can't understand why on earth is that?!?
If these guys don't know how, sack them(KY should) and hire some people who know what they're doing(god knows there are some brilliant people)!
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I wanted a GT with the greatest sounds, matching its graphics and not this mediocre crap unworthy of such high held standards they have for other aspects of the game...but I think It's too late, at least for GT5...although I still have some small sliver of hope that the sounds we've heard so far are still demo stuff and the full game will surprise us... My pessimistic 2 cents

 

[RacingFreak2k3]

Ok, I've written in more detail about the sound issues of GT before, so now(after CES videos), I'd just like to get back to the basics and also, admit that from the hyped optimism, I switched to rather more realistic pessimism...
Firstly, I'd like to say that the sound(mostly engine sound) in these type of games is probably as important as graphics and physics, and maybe over time it gets even more important then graphics, because if you think about it, when you get over the awesome graphics and car modeling(GT standard for years now), the only things that actually excite you(specially when you're driving from cockpit view) are physics and the sound.
Although it's much fun when you nail the corner just right, or you execute a perfect drift, but that can't really be compared to the ever-present sound which is always "around" you...💡
I suppose everyone here is a car-nut at least in some sense and you all know how exciting it is to hear an American V8 rumble, Italian V8 symphony, German V10 howl, Zonda's V12 shriek or Japan's famous tuned I6,V6 or VTEC I4 engines! 👍
Gran Turismo was always lacking in this department and there were just a few cars(out of hundreds) that had similar sound to their real life counterparts, and that actually did excite you, and for the same reason I didn't drive some of the cars that I really wanted to drive JUST because the sound was crappy and didn't fit the awesomeness of the real car it's based on...
I was hopeful(although this is PD's 5th game), because KY said that the sound will be one of the areas which would receive total overhaul and I thought that all these demos they were showing around contained old sound engine, as to make a bigger impact when we actually get the full game, but after the last videos, I'm not too sure about that.
Take the Gallardo, which is a new car in GT. It has kind of a similar sound to the real thing, but in the old PD fashion, and that means weak, lifeless, synthetic, horrible high rpms, no difference in how much you press the gas pedal and so on...👎
That could also be one of the old sounds reworked just for the show, but that argument seems kinda weak now, with the game probably done, since the release date is so close...
My final conclusion is probably that PD's sound team just doesn't know how to keep the sound "alive" from original source through all the stages of recording, mixing, coding the sound engine etc....and it definitely ISN'T a fault of either the console(way back on ps2 nfs underground had some of the best engine sounds ever, not to mention PC titles, MOD scene etc)or audio hardware of each and everyone of you, because awesome sound sounds good even on a cheap 5$ headphones, let a lone on a surround systems!!!
And that makes me sad, because even I did sounds(as a hobby sound modder for TDU) much better than PD has to offer and I just can't understand why on earth is that?!?
If these guys don't know how, sack them(KY should) and hire some people who know what they're doing(god knows there are some brilliant people)!
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I wanted a GT with the greatest sounds, matching its graphics and not this mediocre crap unworthy of such high held standards they have for other aspects of the game...but I think It's too late, at least for GT5...although I still have some small sliver of hope that the sounds we've heard so far are still demo stuff and the full game will surprise us... My pessimistic 2 cents

Very well said. It is unfortunate, yes. Having said that though, I personally feel that a lot of other things they do with the sound is done well. The doppler effect they do in the replays is spot on in my opinion, tire noise has no doubt been improved...and yes I also feel the sounds in the 370z demo have been improved, but that's only for 2 cars, so I can't completely judge just yet.

Now, even in prologue, I feel that many of the sounds have improved over GT4, but still not to the point where I feel it could be. Can I live with prologue type sound for GT5?? Actually yes I could...but I would always wonder "what it could've been" had it been done more correctly.

I'm not judging PD just yet as I won't make any final judgements until GT5 is in my PS3, but I think there is still work to be done.

 

[gt3killer]

We really need better quality videos or direct fed videos. Listening to the sounds in the CES video they do sound like they have more presences. I think that cause we hear lots of distortion in the mids and especially in the highs. If listen to the music track it can be heard fairly well for an off screen video, but the engine sounds have lots volume coming from it causing all kinds of distortion. Not sure if that means the sound is better but It could be a good sign. I think the Gallardo video might suffer from the same thing that some of the other frequencies from the sound of the car might have so much distortion that video mic might be killing the highs and the only thing coming through is a little bits of sound from the mid frequency. Just my 2 cents

 

[RedBaron]

speedfreak69, I agree with you at 100%.

gt3killer, the Gallardo sound is totally wrong. Its real engine really sings and has that unique moll tone of R5/V10 engines. The sound of GT counterpart is dry, dead and has total lack of V10 harmony, it's just not there. The same case like older model of Viper in Prologue. They set that unrealistic V6 sound for it years ago and it remained till today.

I did computer music and have decent experience with samples for instruments. It's just similar work as layering the samples of several rpm ranges together and get the real sound. And I can hear that in range of 1k-2k rpm where many engines have beautiful grunt GT just extrapolates sample taken in 3000 rpm and it sounds dry and rustling, nothing more. The same for highest rpm. They just extrapolate sample taken at 4000 rpm into 7000 rpm range and it sounds like crap because there is missing that angry revved engine sample recorded under full load from range of 6-7k rpm. The engine is not changing its tone when stomped on the gas and the intake is fully open. There is only one kind of sample not recorded under right conditions. All I can hear is slightly tuned sound engine of GT4, even in the latest builds presented.

I can see many of you are satisfied with it but for me it just seems that sound in GT is three classes under graphics and frozen somewhere in 90's technology. I love engines to the bone and it really hurts me.





Do you feel the difference finally?

 

[Raitziger]

As long as low quality youtube videos sound better than GT, PD has a lot to do.

 

[kayman]

No

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy-sxwngFng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-HHULG-xug&feature=related

Lambo in the bottom vid has modified exhausts from what the author of the video says.
Also the window is cracked so you can hear the deeper exhaust note better than when the window is shut like in GT5.

I think GT5 over does the sound of the wind buffeting against the car. With the windows up in a 2005 Gallardo you dont get the deep notes from the exhaust and it sounds fairly similar to what that GT5 video sounds like, if the wind was toned down a little.

Unfortunately GT5 does not capture the extent of the blip on the downshift in the Gallardo in that video either. Really need a video where there is a better driver so we can actually hear the engine instead of tyre squeal.

Also on the standard Pirrelli P Zero Nero's you do actually get a heap of tyre squeal when you are pushing the limit of the tyres, but again the sound inside the cabin with the windows up is a bit more muted than GT5 makes it.

 

[CoolColJ]

You people expect too much from a 512 meg total machine that has to share that with the video/graphics, models, textures, engine/physics and the OS!

 

[RedBaron]

You people expect too much from a 512 meg total machine that has to share that with the video/graphics, models, textures, engine/physics and the OS!

It has nothing to do with PS3 specs, but with well recorded and put together sample group for every car, mate!

 

[kayman]

You people expect too much from a 512 meg total machine that has to share that with the video/graphics, models, textures, engine/physics and the OS!

Actually i think all that is required would be separate volume sliders for each noise (wind, tyres, exhaust, engine, impact).

 

[CoolColJ]

yeah and you don't think a good set of sounds and processing it for 16 cars at once doesn't take up memory?

Something has to give. Ever try and sample and recreate an orchestra on a 512meg synth/sampler with at least 16 bit 44 khtz bandwidth? It doesn't work too well...

 

[DRambo]

You might like to compare the CES Fuji video with these taken at Silverstone last year of the FIA GT1/2 cars. It was my first time seeing these cars and the video does not give you the real sense of the volume. It was fantastic, ear bursting noise!

www.facebook.com/v/103691526318410

www.facebook.com/v/103691436318419

www.facebook.com/v/103691849651711

 

[DRambo]

That's not worked has it?????

 

[DRambo]

How do you link a video from Facebook???

I feel clever now!! Ha Ha.

 

[RedBaron]

yeah and you don't think a good set of sounds and processing it for 16 cars at once doesn't take up memory?

Something has to give. Ever try and sample and recreate an orchestra on a 512meg synth/sampler with at least 16 bit 44 khtz bandwidth? It doesn't work too well...

Engine sample is repetitive sound in loop, maybe two seconds at longest, mono. So it's about 706 kbps, so say 88kB per second * 2 = 176 kB * 3 samples (idle, 2k rpm, 4k rpm) * 16 = 8.4 MB as it is now. Plus sound code of course.

We should get more samples into single engine sound to get distinctive real feeling, so for idle, 1200, 1600, 2400, 3200, 4800 and 6400 rpm, maybe one more for high rev beasts and one less for things like viper and SL55 which end something around 5k rpm. So it's 176 kB * 7 * 16 = 19.7 MB. Double of it if the sound has to change with gas pedal position and intake manifold opening. Plus sound code of course.

If memory size is concern then I would recommend doing it in 22kHz, because 22kHz of REAL CAR SOUND should sound miles better than 44kHz of BUZZING, so it can be only 9.8 MB to get decent car engine sounds and 19.7 MB if they should sound really genial and change their sounds upon gas pedal position and intake manifold opening.

Not really a big deal, is it? I can't see into brains of PD's sound engineers and sound code programmers, but I think biggest problem now is the way the sounds are recorded, because they often have to work with useless samples. Mainly they have no distinctive samples for engine under full load as it powers the car upon steep hill for example. And therefore they stay at the old way although graphicians made mile steps further into GT5. It's time to change it PD, get the people who bring the engine sounds on par with graphics!

 

[TokyoDrift]

How do you link a video from Facebook???

I feel clever now!! Ha Ha.

Not knowing how to post a video. That's bad enough.
Double posting. That's worse.
Triple posting. Priceless!

There is an edit button - use it, otherwise the mods will be on your case.

Engine sample is repetitive sound in loop, maybe two seconds at longest, mono. So it's about 706 kbps, so say 88kB per second * 2 = 176 kB * 3 samples (idle, 2k rpm, 4k rpm) * 16 = 8.4 MB as it is now. Plus sound code of course.

We should get more samples into single engine sound to get distinctive real feeling, so for idle, 1200, 1600, 2400, 3200, 4800 and 6400 rpm, maybe one more for high rev beasts and one less for things like viper and SL55 which end something around 5k rpm. So it's 176 kB * 7 * 16 = 19.7 MB. Plus sound code of course. If memory size is concern then I would recommend doing it in 22kHz, because 22kHz of REAL CAR SOUND should sound much better than 44kHz of BUZZING, so it can be only 9.8 MB to get decent car engine sounds.

Not really a big deal, is it?

Write to PD via SCEJ with your ideas. I'm sure they will be more than happy to be told how to record and playback engine sounds in a manner that the PS3 can handle.

 

[DRambo]

TokyoDrift - I don't need a lecture from you thank you very much. I don't think Ill bother in future, you smart arse.

 

[TokyoDrift]

TokyoDrift - I don't need a lecture from you thank you very much. I don't think Ill bother in future, you smart arse.

Thanks, I'm in tears now - tears of laughter! If you can't take things in good humour, maybe you really shouldn't bother in future?

Oh, by the way, you missed an apostrophe out on "Ill", bolded for ease of refernce

 

[kayman]

TokyoDrift - I don't need a lecture from you thank you very much. I don't think Ill bother in future, you smart arse.

He was right about the admin though, they will crucify you for double posting.

Also RedBaron I think you are right. They also need to record on quick and slow negative thottle.

In 2nd gear on quick negative throttle from about 3000rpm the exhaust pops on the G.

Having different reactions for different pedal applications would sound so much sweeter than if it was the same sound every time.

 

[DRambo]

Thanks, I'm in tears now - tears of laughter! If you can't take things in good humour, maybe you really shouldn't bother in future?

Oh, by the way, you missed an apostrophe out on "Ill", bolded for ease of refernce

There was nothing in your post to suggest "good humour". Perhaps you might put yourself in the recipient's shoes and consider how your post might come across in future.

 

[TokyoDrift]

There was nothing in your post to suggest "good humour". Perhaps you might put yourself in the recipient's shoes and consider how your post might come across in future.

Given that you are from the UK, I am sure you are familiar with the Mastercard ads. Regardless, I did not insult you, and saw no reason for you to retaliate with the lecturing and smart arse comment. In your mind do two wrongs make a right? Not in mine - it just causes pointless arguments that send threads off-topic, which this has done. As such, I've no more to say - take it to PM if you like.

 

[snicker3s]

so it can be only 9.8 MB to get decent car engine sounds...

Not really a big deal, is it?

-It is possible they only have 9.7 MB left
-10 MB is a lot of memory for the sound of just 1 engine. You got up to 16 engines on track + other sounds which are not RPM dependent(so they cannot be integrated in your samples, you need other 'channels + their own samples'). (Wind, roll, transmission...)
-You also have to interpolate these higher quality samples when in between sample RPMs a lot, which means you need more cpu (there is not much cpu left when playing GT5 )

I am a sound noob, so maybe my points are invalid, but I think when you are implementing this you run into a lot of other problems an limitations...

In short: this stuff is far from simple and should not be minimalised. (In my opinion that is)

 

[RedBaron]

I am a sound noob, so maybe my points are invalid...

Yes, because that 10MB are roughly counted for all 16 engines, read yet once please. I didn't talked about other sounds which are just OK for me. I talked only about engine sounds which are really weak now.

-You also have to interpolate these higher quality samples when in between sample RPMs a lot, which means you need more cpu (there is not much cpu left when playing GT5 )

There are 8 cores in best processor on today mass market in our PS3's. Graphical subsystem is the weakest part of PS3 but CPU can count these things for three GT5's at once surely. Once again, there is no hardware limitations causing bad GT sound. Only method they use and little bit of bad in whole sound obtaining chain from recording through preparing and ending with badly written sound engine, in basics the same which worked on PS1's. We should want more today.

 

[snicker3s]

Yes, .., read yet once please.

Aaargh, my bad, didnt see the x16. My sincerest apologies!

Still convinced it aint that simple though.

 

[shirakawaa]

The GT series has always used a mix of recorded sounds and computer generated/filtered sounds, arranged in more "layers". There isn't only a sample for a certain range of rpm, then another, etc., but actually several ones crossfading one against each other in different ways as engine and transmission load vary.

In my opinion this is the reason why Gran Turismo engine sounds sound "correct", realistic even in many ways, but synthetic.

 

[Pat_f40]

Lambo in the bottom vid has modified exhausts from what the author of the video says.
Also the window is cracked so you can hear the deeper exhaust note better than when the window is shut like in GT5.

I think GT5 over does the sound of the wind buffeting against the car. With the windows up in a 2005 Gallardo you dont get the deep notes from the exhaust and it sounds fairly similar to what that GT5 video sounds like, if the wind was toned down a little.

Unfortunately GT5 does not capture the extent of the blip on the downshift in the Gallardo in that video either. Really need a video where there is a better driver so we can actually hear the engine instead of tyre squeal.

Also on the standard Pirrelli P Zero Nero's you do actually get a heap of tyre squeal when you are pushing the limit of the tyres, but again the sound inside the cabin with the windows up is a bit more muted than GT5 makes it.

I figured it out now!!! The GT5 Lambo sound is the SAME as the R8 in GT5P!!! With different pinch... but, is it!