The importance of Audio in GT5!

[Seismica]

I'm 99% sure that video has dubbed audio over it,that's not in game audio.
(at some places if you listen(and watch) carefully,sounds don't even match what the car is doing really well...hate to disappoint you mate,although I'd love to be wrong on this one)

Speaking of noises i don't like the tone of your voice. 👎 You seem to like insulting people because you think you're right and they're not. If they are wrong, try to set them right, don't just say they're clueless.

But on topic, The engine sounds in trailors are excellent, all PD need to do is get the same sound into the game and we're all set to close the debate.

 

[FyreandIce]

Car sounds are very important.

To me, there is no point in driving something like an F430 if it doesn't sound like an F430 (it sounds like a car having an orgasm )

It will be interesting come mid-late next year (when GT5 will likely be released in Europe and America) to see if PD have just dubbed sounds over their trailers (like they usually do) or if they have actually put work into the car audio to match Shift and Forza.

 

[speedfreak69]

Speaking of noises i don't like the tone of your voice. 👎 You seem to like insulting people because you think you're right and they're not. If they are wrong, try to set them right, don't just say they're clueless.

But on topic, The engine sounds in trailors are excellent, all PD need to do is get the same sound into the game and we're all set to close the debate.

Well, I try to explain as much as I can in my posts usually,but some comments are in a special league and maybe demand more patience than I have(had).
It's like saying,if we add 2 and 2 and it's not five like they led us to believe for years,but 4, universe will collapse surely! What do you say to that?

Anyhoo, I hope we get some more material from TMS sound wise, so we can be errr..wiser about the uhh...well, sound. That was bad,I know.
Off to sleep now.

 

[humpus]

I find it hard to believe that some here are actually defending the sound in the GT games.

Face it, the sound is bad. In fact, I can't think of another respected racing game with such a low quality sound.
The bad engine noise, tire sound, lack of gearbox sounds, exaggerated wind noise, ...
And I would add the menu music too actually

ps: I'd just like to add: if the GT games existed on PC, they would be the games with the most sound mods, ever

 

[El Drifto]

The GT5rologue sounds lack character and definition.
They sound better if you have 2 subwoofers, and sit on one lol.
I tried it with the R8, it was fantastic.

 

[newnikita]

Obviously, video/trailer sounds are not reliable to know the fidelity of them in the future game.

Polyphony has used dynos to record car sounds, but it seems to be in some cars only, for example, Audi R8 (remember the article "Audi meets Gran Turismo").

I'm sorry mate,but you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Even so, I maintain everything I said. If you have a different opinion, no problem.

 

[Scaff]

I get what you're saying and I believe there is a difference, but more of a superficial difference(clarity/definition) in quality(because the samples are still the same)and addition of spatial positioning due to the surround,but as others have already said, good audio sounds good even on a crappiest system and there's no running away from that fact.

Again I have to disagree in part with this, the bit-rate for the 5.1/7.1 LPCM and stereo output of GT5 are different, and its far more than a superficial difference.

Now this is either due to the stereo output using a lower bit-rate 'core' sample (which in itself would sound very different) or they are two separate samples. Now both are possible (and both options get used on BR releases), however for economy of packaging the first route would make more sense.

These are differences beyond clarity and/or definition and spatial positioning (and I have enough years experience with Hi-Fi and Home Cinema to be able to judge that), they sound completely different on a good number of cars.

I have to ask, have you done a comparison between the stereo feed of GT5 and a LPCM 5.1/7.1 feed using the same car?


Regards

Scaff

 

[speedfreak69]

Obviously, video/trailer sounds are not reliable to know the fidelity of them in the future game.

Polyphony has used dynos to record car sounds, but it seems to be in some cars only, for example, Audi R8 (remember the article "Audi meets Gran Turismo").



Even so, I maintain everything I said. If you have a different opinion, no problem.

Look, everybody "filters and edits" their sounds! that's why your comment was errr wrong. But it's the way you record the sound+how you edit it+how your audio engine interprets it(and is it any good in the first place) that's important. As you can see by the comments on this forum, vast majority would agree that the sounds(for whatever of those reasons)are sub par and would like more sounds(within a sound of a car)and better quality to match that near photo realism which is already achieved with the graphics.💡

Again I have to disagree in part with this, the bit-rate for the 5.1/7.1 LPCM and stereo output of GT5 are different, and its far more than a superficial difference.

Now this is either due to the stereo output using a lower bit-rate 'core' sample (which in itself would sound very different) or they are two separate samples. Now both are possible (and both options get used on BR releases), however for economy of packaging the first route would make more sense.

These are differences beyond clarity and/or definition and spatial positioning (and I have enough years experience with Hi-Fi and Home Cinema to be able to judge that), they sound completely different on a good number of cars.

I have to ask, have you done a comparison between the stereo feed of GT5 and a LPCM 5.1/7.1 feed using the same car?
Regards
Scaff

To start with your question, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to try what you're suggesting and I'd like to, so I can explain better my view,but that's not a possibility right now.
Anyway, as I've said, there's bound to be a difference between those feeds, and you are right,it's probably higher bit-rate(two sets of samples are definitely not an option), but, in my modding experience, I have taken sounds(from other games) of higher bit-rate and had to lower it so the audio engine of TDU would recognize it, and sure, it did sound worse naturally, but the most important aspect of the sample in question, it's character, remained unaltered(or just a little bit,but that's irrelevant) and that's the point I'm trying to get across from the beginning of this discussion.
In a nutshell, it's not even a question that the sound is of lower quality in regular stereo feed, but about the quality of its foundations(its samples and audio engine that "plays" them).

 

[Scaff]

To start with your question, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to try what you're suggesting and I'd like to, so I can explain better my view,but that's not a possibility right now.

So you would have to admit that without having experience GT5's LPCM feed you are simply speculating about exactly what it sounds like in comparison to the stereo feed.

Anyway, as I've said, there's bound to be a difference between those feeds, and you are right,it's probably higher bit-rate(two sets of samples are definitely not an option),....

Why exactly are two sets of sample not an option?

While its unlikely its can't be ruled out completely, after all it is quite commonplace in some BR releases, the very one I mentioned has a totally separate Dolby Digital and LPCM track. They are totally different and one is very, very good (the LPCM); while the other is very poor (the Dolby Digital).

....but, in my modding experience, I have taken sounds(from other games) of higher bit-rate and had to lower it so the audio engine of TDU would recognize it, and sure, it did sound worse naturally, but the most important aspect of the sample in question, it's character, remained unaltered(or just a little bit,but that's irrelevant) and that's the point I'm trying to get across from the beginning of this discussion.
In a nutshell, it's not even a question that the sound is of lower quality in regular stereo feed, but about the quality of its foundations(its samples and audio engine that "plays" them).

That however is at odds (as is the first piece I have quoted from you above) with what you said here....

I don't have room,money or intent to get a fancy 5/6/7.1 system, cuz it would only make it MORE clear how it sucks! Trust me, I've made music and the only thing you get with a sick system(like speakers in pro studio which cost as much as your car...each!) is more clarity and greater power, but they certainly don't make your crappy sound any better, but show it even more for what it is. disclaimer: My music's sound wasn't crappy to begin with!

....a comment that quite clearly can be seen as both speculation (you have admitted you have not listened to both); and to a degree inaccurate, as you have just said that a lower bit-rate feed would sound worse and could to a degree alter the character of the sound.

The entire crux of your argument was that a better system would highlight how poor GT5 sounds were and that a better system could not make a difference. That is (by your own admission) not correct if the original recording was at a higher bit-rate (in which case the lower bit-rate used by a stereo feed would sound poorer), which is something that would only be possible to benefit from using a HD audio compatible system.

Once again I would add that I personally believe that a lot of the sounds in GT5 (while they are clearly better than in GT4 - so we are headed in the right direction) still need a hell of a lot of work. That does not however mean that anyone who says it sounds better through a good 5.1/7.1 system is wrong.

Just as a good system will highlight the flaws of a poor recording, a poor system will make a good recording sound rubbish. My sub will get down to 27hz and some soundtracks (be that games/films/tv) will be able to make use of that and it sounds great, however throw that at a TVs built in speakers and all they will do is buzz unpleasantly.

Your point works both ways you see.


Scaff

 

[humpus]

Well I'm agreeing with speedfreak, even low quality sound can be more true to life than the sounds we have now. Same goes for sound that's filtered or sampled in another way. There's no excuse for the boring sounds we have now.

Example: I took this clip almost randomly from youtube. The quality is pretty bad (audio and video). But it still sounds like a charger, and not like a vacuum.

 

[whatbrown]

I find it hard to believe that some here are actually defending the sound in the GT games.

Face it, the sound is bad. In fact, I can't think of another respected racing game with such a low quality sound.
The bad engine noise, tire sound, lack of gearbox sounds, exaggerated wind noise, ...
And I would add the menu music too actually

ps: I'd just like to add: if the GT games existed on PC, they would be the games with the most sound mods, ever

Well said. I love GT, but I can't defend the sounds. They truly are inexplicably bad. Especially for such an awesome franchise. Anybody who says otherwise is either deaf or partially deaf.

 

[Bogie 19th]

To me, it is infinitely more important than graphics.

 

[haubi]

To me, it is infinitely more important than graphics.

:tup:same here

 

[speedfreak69]

So you would have to admit that without having experience GT5's LPCM feed you are simply speculating about exactly what it sounds like in comparison to the stereo feed.Scaff

I admit it, but I still maintain my view on grounds that we're talking about different perception here, I know it does sound better(clearer) through that system, but the character of the sounds(due to recording technique and audio engine)IS the same and others who have this kind of systems have said so also. And that ties us neatly to your next question.

Why exactly are two sets of sample not an option?

While its unlikely its can't be ruled out completely, after all it is quite commonplace in some BR releases, the very one I mentioned has a totally separate Dolby Digital and LPCM track. They are totally different and one is very, very good (the LPCM); while the other is very poor (the Dolby Digital).

Firstly, I'm basically going to agree on something you've said before and that is economy. I just don't see it as viable to have two sets of samples for ALL the sounds, including probably over 1000 car sounds!
The other thing brings us back to the basics, and that is recording technique, which to support your claim of the "HD" feed being not just of higher resolution, but different in character too, would have to mean that PD uses 2 techniques, proper one for HD and quick'n'dirty one for SD(like stereo feed) and that my friend seems really, really unlikely at best! Also, just few people had come out and said that the HD audio is totally different and that much better, so I'm inclined to believe the majority of people who recognize that the sound is obviously better on high end surround system, but it's still the "same" sound.

Once again I would add that I personally believe that a lot of the sounds in GT5 (while they are clearly better than in GT4 - so we are headed in the right direction) still need a hell of a lot of work. That does not however mean that anyone who says it sounds better through a good 5.1/7.1 system is wrong.

We agree on this point.

Just as a good system will highlight the flaws of a poor recording, a poor system will make a good recording sound rubbish. My sub will get down to 27hz and some soundtracks (be that games/films/tv) will be able to make use of that and it sounds great, however throw that at a TVs built in speakers and all they will do is buzz unpleasantly.

Your point works both ways you see.

I'm not sure you carried that point quite home, because no one really plays the game on, say one of those tiny mobile phone speakers, so those are just nuances you're talking about, also I'd hate to sound like a parrot, but nfs shift as an example of believable/realistic(in the sense you instantly know just by sound what car you're driving) audio really does sound good,recognizable and exciting even on crappiest of speakers on laptops for example, without even mentioning good TV sets, or hi-fis...and in the end, to make your own point, yes, shift sounds best on a really good surround system, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying it on a crappy 10$ headset!! There are no excuses I'm afraid...but I also hope, no one will have to come up with one after GT5 is released!

To me, it is infinitely more important than graphics.

Infinitely is a bit strong, specially cuz I consider myself a graphics whore, but yeah, I can tell you as a practical example that in the end, I always choose impreza over lancer,just because impreza sounds awesome and lancer, well doesn't. And I make that choice even with the last generations, in which the impreza looks like a 10 year old daewoo and in spite lancer looking better than ever! Sound IS important!👍

 

[JoshB1984]

I don't care about cars sound very much, since I am deaf.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Interesting. 2 deaf people announcing that they are deaf on this forum in the past week.

Josh, does Force Feedback make the most of the game for you then? Do you rely on the tach to shift I assume?

 

[Scaff]

I admit it, but I still maintain my view on grounds that we're talking about different perception here, I know it does sound better(clearer) through that system, but the character of the sounds(due to recording technique and audio engine)IS the same and others who have this kind of systems have said so also. And that ties us neatly to your next question.

It not that is just sounds better, it the rather simple fact that a 5.1/7.1 system is capable of reproducing a far wider range of the audible spectrum (and some beyond it), a good system is quite capable of letting you hear things that a cheap set of speakers simply will not.

Firstly, I'm basically going to agree on something you've said before and that is economy. I just don't see it as viable to have two sets of samples for ALL the sounds, including probably over 1000 car sounds!
The other thing brings us back to the basics, and that is recording technique, which to support your claim of the "HD" feed being not just of higher resolution, but different in character too, would have to mean that PD uses 2 techniques, proper one for HD and quick'n'dirty one for SD(like stereo feed) and that my friend seems really, really unlikely at best! Also, just few people had come out and said that the HD audio is totally different and that much better, so I'm inclined to believe the majority of people who recognize that the sound is obviously better on high end surround system, but it's still the "same" sound.

Unlikely I can live with, but to simply dismiss it out of hand (as you did) is to be blunt a bit arrogant.

As for the argument that it would need two different recordings, well that is simply untrue. As someone who has spent time in a studio you will know full well that its possible to produce many, many differing variations from a single master recording. I go back to the example of Black Hawk Down, I know of three very, very different versions of that audio, the DVD Dolby mix, the BR Dolby mix and the BR LPCM mix. All were taken from the original films master, yet all three have a very different quality of sound.

I'm not sure you carried that point quite home, because no one really plays the game on, say one of those tiny mobile phone speakers, so those are just nuances you're talking about, also I'd hate to sound like a parrot, but nfs shift as an example of believable/realistic(in the sense you instantly know just by sound what car you're driving) audio really does sound good,recognizable and exciting even on crappiest of speakers on laptops for example, without even mentioning good TV sets, or hi-fis...and in the end, to make your own point, yes, shift sounds best on a really good surround system, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying it on a crappy 10$ headset!! There are no excuses I'm afraid...but I also hope, no one willhave to come up with one after GT5 is released!

To be honest the speakers built into most flat-screens these days are poor beyond all reason, and you do loose a lot of quality in an original recording from them.

However you are moving this argument away from the point I originally made, which was a response that anyone saying that GT5 sounded better on a 5.1/7.1 system was wrong. Once again I quote...

I don't have room,money or intent to get a fancy 5/6/7.1 system, cuz it would only make it MORE clear how it sucks!

.....and to be blunt that is simply not the case. I have NFS Shift and gave the stereo vs HD audio test a go with it today and as expected it sounds better through HD audio, however the difference is not as large as that found between the stereo and LPCM tracks in GT5.

I have quite clearly stated from the start that GT5 has issues with car sounds (feel free to go back and check), so stop trying to argue a point that does not need discussion (with me anyway). The single issue I had was your claim (and its an unfounded one) that a good home cinema system will make GT5 sound 'worse'.

For the record I would just add that NFS Shift has its own issues with cars sounds, spending over a decade in the motor industry, I can assure you that a lot of the sounds in it have been given the 'Hollywood' treatment.


Regards

Scaff

 

[speedfreak69]

It not that is just sounds better, it the rather simple fact that a 5.1/7.1 system is capable of reproducing a far wider range of the audible spectrum (and some beyond it), a good system is quite capable of letting you hear things that a cheap set of speakers simply will not.

agreed.

Unlikely I can live with, but to simply dismiss it out of hand (as you did) is to be blunt a bit arrogant.

Suppose I am sometimes, but I'm not trying to say the sky is green, or that you must believe in x or you will burn, nothing that crazy. I'm just arguing minute audio technical details of a game with you.

As for the argument that it would need two different recordings, well that is simply untrue. As someone who has spent time in a studio you will know full well that its possible to produce many, many differing variations from a single master recording. I go back to the example of Black Hawk Down, I know of three very, very different versions of that audio, the DVD Dolby mix, the BR Dolby mix and the BR LPCM mix. All were taken from the original films master, yet all three have a very different quality of sound.

With past GTs, I used either TV speakers,hi-fi or headphones and it always sounded synthetic and digital(there were only a few cars which were instantly recognizable and ok sounding,but that's a poor result for a game with hundreds of cars). I heard GT5P in game/tech stores with 5.1 and yes, it is better, but not in the sense I'm expecting it too be. I can't help, but being subjective about this...

To be honest the speakers built into most flat-screens these days are poor beyond all reason, and you do loose a lot of quality in an original recording from them.

However you are moving this argument away from the point I originally made, which was a response that anyone saying that GT5 sounded better on a 5.1/7.1 system was wrong. Once again I quote...

Again this is quite subjective and I've already said it does sound better, but not in the way it's supposed to...

.....and to be blunt that is simply not the case. I have NFS Shift and gave the stereo vs HD audio test a go with it today and as expected it sounds better through HD audio, however the difference is not as large as that found between the stereo and LPCM tracks in GT5.

Interesting. Could you maybe make a recording of say 30sec with hd audio and then with stereo and post it on youtube in best quality it lets you?

I have quite clearly stated from the start that GT5 has issues with car sounds (feel free to go back and check), so stop trying to argue a point that does not need discussion (with me anyway). The single issue I had was your claim (and its an unfounded one) that a good home cinema system will make GT5 sound 'worse'.

OK. And no,I didn't said it like that. I explained it up there already.

For the record I would just add that NFS Shift has its own issues with cars sounds, spending over a decade in the motor industry, I can assure you that a lot of the sounds in it have been given the 'Hollywood' treatment.

That might as well be,but that treatment isn't detrimental in this case, quite the opposite even. Since there are no actual g forces,vibrations,smells and so on, it is quite welcome to make up for it through tiny bit of exaggeration and additional effects through audio/video/force feedback don't you think?

 

[JoshB1984]

Interesting. 2 deaf people announcing that they are deaf on this forum in the past week.

Josh, does Force Feedback make the most of the game for you then? Do you rely on the tach to shift I assume?

No, I don't have a playseat for my G25 and need a room for a setup. I can't answer that questions.

 

[Tenacious D]

I find it hard to believe that some here are actually defending the sound in the GT games.

I voted "I don't care." The sounds in GT4 are good enough to let the car communicate to me and deliver a thrilling race experience. Prologue is a leap in quality better, and I expect GT5 to be even better still.

 

[Seismica]

I find it hard to believe that some here are actually defending the sound in the GT games.

Face it, the sound is bad. In fact, I can't think of another respected racing game with such a low quality sound.
The bad engine noise, tire sound, lack of gearbox sounds, exaggerated wind noise, ...
And I would add the menu music too actually

ps: I'd just like to add: if the GT games existed on PC, they would be the games with the most sound mods, ever

I kind of agree on the first three, but the wind noise is not exaggerated at all.

You go down a motorway at 70mph and you can hear the wind. In cars without sound insulation, or convertibles like the Ferrari California, of course you are going to get loud wind noise.

Its the same thing about wind noise in low powered cars. In Forza the Mini sounds like a rocket, but most road cars are designed with sound insulation, so the person inside can hear the radio and such. I'm sure they're loud from the outside when highly revved, but not so much on the inside.

If GT do improve the engine sounds, i hope there is some system of making it louder when you lighten your car (Because reducing weight means bye bye sound insulation).

 

[djcorrosive]

Gots to have it.



If i can get sounds like the 2 Trailers they made, that would be more than enough.

and if anything, i just want different levels on the sounds.

I agree, if they sounded like they do in the trailers great stuff, but i highly doubt it! its just the sound that kills the game.

They should bring in proper BOV sounds also to the turbos, not that crap one they have had in the game since GT2 or GT3.

 

[marchi]

It does actually, on my TV at least, which is decent.

I find it funny that the OP in this game is showcasing a bunch of games to show "realistic sound" when there isn't a single video with a real car.

The naivety of this forum still baffles me some times. To think that GT5 is faultless is quite frankly scary.

The sounds 'on what ever TV you play' are poor.

 

[RedBaron]

I kind of agree on the first three, but the wind noise is not exaggerated at all.

I agree with you, wind noise is one of the perfect things in Prologue, they just nailed it. Try to do 180 mph in loud Viper, you could barely hear an engine.

 

[humpus]

could be that the wind noise is fine, if the crank up the engine noise

here's the vid from above btw (delete the first part of the link, until 'v=')

 

[Bogie 19th]

Has anyone run GT5p in actual 7.1 surround (and does the game support it?). And if so, has it made a noticeable difference over 5.1? I am wired for 7.1, just don't have the side speakers installed. I might provoke myself to add them sooner than later.

 

[Scaff]

Has anyone run GT5p in actual 7.1 surround (and does the game support it?). And if so, has it made a noticeable difference over 5.1? I am wired for 7.1, just don't have the side speakers installed. I might provoke myself to add them sooner than later.

I've run both 5.1 and 7.1 and to be honest the difference was not that great at all. A far bigger difference can be found between Dolby Digital and LPCM encodes that between 5.1 and 7.1.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

I've run both 5.1 and 7.1 and to be honest the difference was not that great at all. A far bigger difference can be found between Dolby Digital and LPCM encodes that between 5.1 and 7.1.


Regards

Scaff

Thanks Scaff. I think I will just hold on to my funds for now and wait to upgrade. We spent $15k last year building out my basement and media room. The wife has had a tight leash on any other electronics funding.